Talk:James R. Jordan, Sr.
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 |
This article is part of WikiProject Illinois, an attempt to build a comprehensive and detailed guide to Illinois on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, you can edit this article, or visit the project page to join the project and/or contribute to the discussion. |
| Stub | This article has been rated as Stub-Class on the quality scale. |
| Low | This article has been rated as Low-importance on the importance scale. |
 |
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Chicago, which aims to improve all articles related to Chicago. |
| Stub | This article has been rated as Stub-class on the quality scale. |
| Low | This article has been rated as Low-importance on the importance scale. |
 |
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Biography. For more information, visit the project page. | ||
| Stub | This article has been rated as Stub-Class on the project's quality scale. [FAQ] | ||
 |
This article was nominated for deletion on November 25, 2006. The result of the discussion was keep. |
Contents |
[edit] Importance
James Jordan's is notable, mainly because of his murder, for a number of reasons:
- Father of Michael Jordan.
- Michael had just won 3 consecutive NBA championships, an Olympic ring a year earlier and was considered one of the top, if not the best players in the NBA when the murder took place.
- The murder recieved widespread media attention and is still mentioned periodically. (under 23)Just one of many links. I remember being 7 years old at the time and seeing the media coverage.
- It is often cited as one of the biggest reasons why Jordan retired from the NBA (the first time).
I guess it could be merged in with Michael Jordan#Personal life, but it I still think he is pretty notable. PS2pcGAMER 10:58, 31 December 2005 (UTC)
- I also agree that it is notable, and should not be merged with the already long Michael Jordan article. Captain Jackson 09:36, 18 March 2006 (UTC)
- It's long been the general practice not to include a biography based only only on its relationship to another biography. There have been exceptions. The question is whether or not this one is an appropriate exception. In a hundred years, James Jordan's impact on history will be as the murdered parent of a basketball legend. In that case, a one sentence bio within Michael Jordan's bio is all that is required. Rklawton 04:02, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
- This probably shouldn't be it's own article, but should be mentioned more prominently in the Jordan article. -- Ubergenius 16:14, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
- It's long been the general practice not to include a biography based only only on its relationship to another biography. There have been exceptions. The question is whether or not this one is an appropriate exception. In a hundred years, James Jordan's impact on history will be as the murdered parent of a basketball legend. In that case, a one sentence bio within Michael Jordan's bio is all that is required. Rklawton 04:02, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Moving to a new name
Since there was a strong consensus on the AFD to move this article, I felt it appropriate to get the ball rolling. Any ideas? FrozenPurpleCube 20:20, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
- I admit this is a pretty crappy idea, but since the linked article says his middle initial is, like his less famous son, "R.", we could move them both, one to James R. Jordan (father) and the other to James R. Jordan (brother), since MJ is far more famous and their public identities really derive from their relation to him anyway. Unless there are better ideas...--Chaser T 08:39, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
I moved the article to James Jordan (father of Michael Jordan). If someone objects to that, we can work out another title. -GTBacchus(talk) 07:04, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
- Any chance we can discover his middle name? That might be an ideal method of disambiguation in this case. — CharlotteWebb 02:12, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
- Apparently they are both named James Raymond Jordan (source). I've moved them to James R. Jordan, Sr. and James R. Jordan, Jr.. — CharlotteWebb 06:44, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
I've moved the article to "Murder of James R. Jordan, Sr." because it appears that this person is only notable due to the attention this one event received. There's a similar discussion (and conclusion) over at Talk:Disappearance and murder of Jessie Davis. Rklawton 21:44, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Notability redux
Before the OJ Simpson debacle, the story of MJ's father was huge and everywhere in the media. There has to be tons and tons of newsprint on this issue somewhere. What I recall is that the trial of his two accused murderers was postponed until after the OJ stuff was over because of the publicity. Then after OJ, this story was not news any longer and was barely covered. --Brad 17:40, 18 February 2007 (UTC)
- I found another article with a similar issue: the kidnapping and murder of a celebrity's son. Back in the day this case got even more national attention than Jordan's father. Rather than create a biographical article on the subject but leaving it bereft of most biographical details, editors simply created an article about the event. We might consider the same here, because what I see here isn't a biographical article but an article about an event – a murder. Rklawton 23:19, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
- Whoever proposed deleting this article was just being irresponsible. At the very least, one could change the title to "Murder of James R. Jordan, Sr.", but proposing deletion is just stupid and does a great disservice to Wikipedia and its readers. I'm noticing an increasingly common trend on the part of users to split hairs when arguing for deletion. If there's legitimate debate, then 90% of the time, the article should be kept. We're talking about the father of the most famous sports figure of all time, are you joking?-DMCer (talk) 02:27, 19 November 2007 (UTC)
- Agreed, the proposal for deletion was totally uncalled for - as was re-adding it after I'd already removed the template. --Quartet 04:26, 19 November 2007 (UTC)
According to WP:BLP:
"That a person has a relationship with a well-known person is not a reason for a standalone article; see Relationships do not transfer notability. However, the person may be included in the related article. For example Brooklyn Beckham and Jason Allen Alexander."
In this case, the father is only notable for his relationship with his son and for the event which ended his life. Our choices are therefore to create an event article (for the murder) or to merge this content in with the son's article. Rklawton (talk) 15:16, 19 November 2007 (UTC)
-
- So your saying, if he was still alive, then he wouldn't have his own article? I say it's fine, but if push comes to shove, then an "event article" would be my choice.-DMCer (talk) 16:05, 19 November 2007 (UTC)
- Alot of "ifs and buts" there, but the reality as we know it is that Jordan is notable as 1)The father of Michael Jordan and James R. Jordan, Jr. 2) being a murder victim who's case received a fair amount of media coverage in the early 90's. If this article is deleted, then also consider deleting the articles of lesser-known murder victims such as Kathleen Lopez, Brian Deneke, Dolores Della Penna, DJ Uncle Al and many others; as well as sports figure fathers like Tiger Woods' father Earl Woods and the Williams sisters father Richard Williams. --Quartet 21:07, 19 November 2007 (UTC)
- Move or merge are the options I recommend. As per above, notability by relationship doesn't count. Woods and Williams were also notable as coaches. I'd have to read the other articles, but they may be candidates for change as well. Rklawton (talk) 21:14, 19 November 2007 (UTC)
- Taking the debate this far is kind of unnecessary. There is enough resistance here (and earlier, above) that the article should just be left alone for now. We're talking about the father of the most legendary sports figure alive, considering the fact that James R. Jordan, Sr. played a large role in introducing his son to the sport of basketball, especially the facts listed above, and the fact that he has a foundation named in his honor [1] are reasons enough for me to keep this. You have to realize the difference between this case, and say, proposing to make an article for the father of every single sports figure. Wikipedia is supposed to be a helpful reference for all. This sourced article is the first Google result, and debating whether or not to change the name doesn't help anyone.-DMCer (talk) 22:05, 19 November 2007 (UTC)
- Move or merge are the options I recommend. As per above, notability by relationship doesn't count. Woods and Williams were also notable as coaches. I'd have to read the other articles, but they may be candidates for change as well. Rklawton (talk) 21:14, 19 November 2007 (UTC)
- Alot of "ifs and buts" there, but the reality as we know it is that Jordan is notable as 1)The father of Michael Jordan and James R. Jordan, Jr. 2) being a murder victim who's case received a fair amount of media coverage in the early 90's. If this article is deleted, then also consider deleting the articles of lesser-known murder victims such as Kathleen Lopez, Brian Deneke, Dolores Della Penna, DJ Uncle Al and many others; as well as sports figure fathers like Tiger Woods' father Earl Woods and the Williams sisters father Richard Williams. --Quartet 21:07, 19 November 2007 (UTC)
- So your saying, if he was still alive, then he wouldn't have his own article? I say it's fine, but if push comes to shove, then an "event article" would be my choice.-DMCer (talk) 16:05, 19 November 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Age?
The article mentions that he was a 57 year old, and then goes on to state that he was murdered a week before his 57th birthday. One of these numbers must be incorrect.
