Talk:James Joyce

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[edit] Daedulus

I am quite sorry to put this up at the very top of the article but in every Joyce related article I have read his psuedonym is represented as "Dedalus" when it was actually "Daedulus", I would hope that noone bans my account for this but it is well known. In fact there is a "Daedulus Building" in UCD which is dedicated to him as a centre of learning. I don't have as much skill in terms of editing articles as other users might but I do have first hand experience in seeing his effect on UCD and reading those books which were written under the pseudonym he originally decided upon, of which still exist in the UCD library, So I would like to think someone with better editting skills than I would correct this issue. Pleasehelp1988 (talk) 03:09, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

The character in Portrait and Ulysses (usually taken to be at least to some extent biographical) is Stephen Daedalus. The variant you suggest may be referring directly to the father of Icarus? (John User:Jwy talk) 06:25, 7 April 2008 (UTC)
Pleasehelp1988, do you realize you are spelling it as "Daedulus" (with a "u")? You'll find that if you read Stephen Hero it is "Daedalus" there, but it gets shortened to "Dedalus" in the later novels. If you believe this is not the case, please provide citations etc. Pádraig Coogan (talk) 15:21, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] General commentary

A few suggestions for the opening paras:

A "featured" article should probably avoid phrases like "Due to this" which do not make clear what "this" refers to. It might be wise, too, to avoid sentences such as "Joyce was attacked by a dog, which added them to his lifelong fear of thunderstorms".

"Et Tu, Healy" usually comes with a comma and it is unusual to italicize the titles of individual poems. John Joyce remembered sending the poem to the Pope, not the Vatican Library.

"John Joyce" or "John" in three consecutive sentences seems clumsy.

Stubbs' Gazette normally has an apostrophe and is probably better Stubbs' Weekly Gazette. Again the "due to" ["This was the beginning of a slide into poverty for the family, mainly due to John's drinking and general financial mismanagement"] is probably ill advised.

As Joyce went to kindergarten, it seems imprecise to say he was "initially educated" only at Clongowes.

Joyce was withdrawn from Clongowes in 1891, not 1892. It would be interesting to know the evidence for the "hope that he would prove to have a vocation" apart from general Jesuitical longing in this direction.

If UC is listed as UCD, then Trinity should probably be TCD. [The article on UCD gives the form as UC, D; unfortunately, it suggests that the University was founded in 1908, but that's another matter.] "Off-limits to Catholics" seems imprecise, particularly as Trinity did accept Catholics. A little more explanation would clarify.

His celebrated article on Ibsen was I think [and Ellman confirms] a review of When We Dead Awaken and entitled "Ibsen's New Drama".

He both graduated from UCD and left (the first time) for Paris in 1902 not 1903. He returned once well before his mother fell ill.

In the subsection on Ulysses, Joyce's complaint that he had oversystemized his work is elaborated upon by saying that Joyce eliminated the chapter titles "that had been taken from Homer." Forgive me if I am wrong, but the concept that the titles were actually Homeric appears to be incorrect. In so far as I learned at Reed College, "Homer" did not personally divide his/their work into Books; this division is thought to have been imposed during subsequent redaction by the limited maximum size of scrolls. As such, the phrase perhaps ought to be reworked--except that Joyce, writing in the early Twentieth Century, might not have himself known the distinction.

--It's not that Homer titled the books of the Odyssey (or the Iliad)--you're right they were probably split into books later. The issue is that Joyce provided a scheme (actually 2, if I remember correctly) by which the chapters of Ulysses are commonly given names taken from characters and events in Homer, such that one chapter is called Penelope and another is Scylla and Charibdis (sp?). These are simply loose, thematic connections between the works, and not meant to be a 1-to-1 correlation between Joyce's chapters and Homer's books.

While in a certain sense true, it seems somehow deeply wrong to say that everything, or indeed anything Joyce wrote deals "exlusively with Irish topics."

"Exclusively" could be disproven with a single example. Do we really want to dare the reader to find an counterexample? Koyaanis Qatsi

The image looks like a painting; can we get an attribution for the artist? --Delirium 07:16 9 Jul 2003 (UTC)

I assume you mean the picture at the top of the article - it's not a painting, it's a photograph. The same picture appears on the cover of my edition of The Portable James Joyce from Penguin Books; the only attribution there is "Cover photo courtesy of The Bettmann Archive". - Dharmabum420 04:33, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

How about Joyce as a character in fiction? (snip! In A Moveable Feast for example - there's no mention of friendship with Hemingway in the article either.) And also how James Thurber ended up resembling him? - Sparky 04:18, 13 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Do you agree?

compared

For the phrase where it mentions the ranking of his other two novels (not Ulysses), there's no specification on which is #3 and which is #77. While I may just be missing the implied "respectively," it would be good to clarify this.

I've done the clarification as suggested above; I couldn't see the purpose of splitting his works into two lists (good and bad ones?- POV), especially since there aren't that many. So I've been bold and amalgamated them. Markalexander100 09:26, 24 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Hi

I think this article needs a lot of work. Like him or not, Joyce was one of the key figures in 20th C. literature. At the very least we need a more detailed biography and discussion of his significance/influence. Any takers? I'll do what I can over the coming weeks. Bmills 13:10, 19 Jul 2004 (UTC)

I have seen a page of Joyce's notes on display in the British Library - the most amazing chaotic jumble of text. Think they were for one of: Dubliners; Portrait or FW (think FW off the top of my head). Almost certain there'll be a scan or similar online. Worth hunting down, clearing for copyright issues and adding to this article? Felt it really gave an insight into the character of the man.

This isn't it but it gives you an idea of what it looks like!

I found two pages with notes from Joyce:
Both from: Weblog on Joyce
I don't know about copyright issues.
--Maarten van Vliet 09:50, Oct 10, 2004 (UTC)

I was thinking, that to say that "Joyce's universe is firmly rooted in Dublin" is akin to saying that "Shakespeare's universe is firmly rooted in England." Its a bit underwhelming. --McDogm 03:55, 22 July 2005 (UTC)

Shakespeare's plays take place in England, Scotland, Italy, Egypt, random islands, and the coast of Bohemia. Joyce's works take place in Dublin. --24.131.209.132 04:17, 11 October 2006 (UTC)


One of the main problems with analysing Joyce is that his Ireland had vanished by the time Ulysses was published in 1922.... Since that time everything Irish has been IRISH--everything being viewed through a narrow Irish nationalism... everything else excluded totally... this is always the tradgedy that follows a nations INDEPENDENCE... Someone writes "Joyces universe is rooted on his Dublin experiences"...well thats normal ...all writers use their upbringing as material...another"Irish experiences are essential to his writing"... now lets be a little careful here...What Dublin.. What Ireland ...is he talking about??? The answer ...whether one likes it or not is the enormously richly charactered free speaking ,free thinking --and proud -colonial capital of British Ireland, a close linked part of the great British Empire and pictured here at almost the peak of that empires wealth and power...these "Irishmen " were full not only of their "Irishness" but of the fact that they were in fact members of the British Empire they were proud of their Irish troops that guarded that empire --of their great literary heroes fame in London---at that time from 1904 to 1922 George Bernard Shaw was one of the the most famous names in the world....the world of Ulysses dazzles with its cosmopolitanism its European love of Italian and German opera...in the entire book there is not a mention of the endlessly promoted "Irish" folk music that is all the world hears about today...Ulysses is many things but essentially a poem or hymmn first to the great and glorious English language..indeed Ulysses is a kind of test flight for English with Joyce stretching it to its maximum and also a hymnn to the British Empire in all its rich glory...whether one likes it or not. It is interesting that Joyce ends the main book with a large black full stop...as if after this the English language had no where further to go... and also that with the arrival of the Irish Free State..with its sad decline into a semi fascistic Mussolini Franco Hitler sympathising closed inward looking and screwed up society the real days of Irish greatness were over... There is however even more to be said because in fact the Irish /Dublin location is surely not as absolutely rigid as all that... In fact the richness of atmospere language and passion ..both for the British and against them for nationalism etc,could be mirrored in many cities of the empire..in Sydney Melbourne Bombay Port Said Singapore etc... I do not think this is pushing things too far... It is interesting that Joyce always pointedly travelled on his British passport as if refusing any connection with the new Ireland.. By reading the book in this way it can be seen as a great realistic historical novel --it becomes even more rich rewarding and remarkable... Although everything in wikepedia is freely copyiable-- if academics wish to pursue these ideas perhaps they might mention their origins... Jon Peters,truthlord..

What are you trying to say? That Joyce was a Unionist or British Imperialist? Is there anything specific about the article you wish to change/discuss? Remember that this talk page is for discussion on developing an encyclopaedic article on James Joyce, not for general discussion of the man and his works - there are plenty of other sites dedicated to that. --Ryano 20:54, 7 February 2006 (UTC)


Really Ryano, to read my comment and immediately throw out those grotesquely strong and emotional words..that I suggest Joyce was a UNIONIST (Ive put that in capitals for a reason) or a British Imperialist shows the extraordinary tensions that swirl around a writer long dead...I am sure Joyce felt that the only people who could really speak or write English were the Irish (with Wilde Yeats and Shaw he was on pretty good ground there)--he was probably bemused by English woodeness and control ..He certainly wanted to see the Irish language revised--had this happened it would have given Irish writers a kind of power.."I am CHOOSING to write in English..I dont HAVE TO.." He would have known all about British Imperialism but there are several kinds of other Imperialisms... would he have preferred Prussian Russian French Spanish Japanese...here we have the usual problem of the symplistic hate the Brits school...there really were other political systems in the world ..life is always a way of choosing the lesser of evils...regarding independence..... by 1904 Canada had achieved considerable independence from Britain without breaking all ties.. I think that Joyce would have looked for such solutions rather than the decision of 1921.. Lloyd Georges decision is alwayslooked at from the Irish angle never it seems to me(I know little about all this incidentally) from the ruthless brutal British position which was essentially.. "Russia is now firmly communist ..our attempt with the French and Americans to bring the regime down has failed..we are getting out of Russia..Hungary has just been communist..Germany is on the brink of going communist..Mussolini originally a communist is taking over Italy..Britain has suffered terribly in the war..the workers are probably ready to go to the barricades at the drop of a hat..the last thing we want is an unstable Ireland..give me Collins number quick..we have other things to think about" I therefore think that Joyce particulaly in view of his attitudes to catholicism would have wanted to preserve a British connection of some kind rather than see Ireland become a Catholic fiefdom..but I am no expert on these matters..he would certainly never have been a political Unionist in the N.I.manner.. Regarding your technical comments.. I am new to wikipedia and realise I may well be writing in the wrong place-I am sorry about this.. could you give me some help as to how I move my comments and what sites I move them too ..thanks in advance--Jon Peters truthlord

Sorry Jon, I didn't wish to be emotive or inflammatory, I was just trying (rather crudely) to draw some specifics from your contribution. As I said above, this talk page is about James Joyce the Wikipedia article rather than James Joyce the man or James Joyce the author. I think your comments are interesting and I don't think you need to move them anywhere, but I hope you understand my point. As to general Wikipedia policy, the following articles would make good reading: WP:FAQ, WP:NOT, Wikipedia:Talk_page_guidelines. Welcome to Wikipedia, you might also wish to create an account and sign in, as this makes it easier to interact with other editors. --Ryano 22:38, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
A large part of what Ryano is trying to say is that you're discussing possible motivation behind Joyce's writing, and what his attitudes towards the British or Irish Home Rule may have been. It's all interpretive (WP:NOR) and contentious (WP:NPOV) and belongs on message boards discussing Joyce, which you could find with a Google search. A Wikipedia talk page is for discussion of how to improve the article itself, not for discussion of the article's subject. - dharmabum 22:36, 7 February 2006 (UTC)



Born 2 February 1882 Rathgar (near Dublin), Ireland

Can this be changed to Rathgar,Dublin please. --132.185.240.122 06:00, 9 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] "On Reading Finnegans Wake"

I have a problem with this section; is it really appropriate to provide advice how to read a book in a biography page on the author? Moreover, the text of the section is markedly different from the rest of the article, particularly in its use of indefinite "you". Does anyone else feel this section should be removed, or at least moved to Finnegans Wake? Adso de Fimnu 03:31, 4 September 2005 (UTC)

Seconding removal of the subsection, or at least moving it to Finnegans Wake. It totally breaks the flow of the rest of the section and isn't written in an encyclopaedic style. --Jacj 06:34, 4 September 2005 (UTC)
Thirding removal of this section. Section removed. --Simoes 01:00, 26 September 2005 (UTC)
Thank you kindly. Adso de Fimnu 02:03, 28 September 2005 (UTC)

Is this tidbit in the Early Life and Writings section true? "The following January he wrote A Portrait of the Artist, an essay-story dealing with aesthetics, in a day, only to have it rejected from the free-thinking magazine Dana." Emphasis added. 68.12.183.137 02:43, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

Yes, according to Ellmann's biography, it is true. He wrote it on January 7, 1904. Ellmann describes it as "an autobiographical story mixing admiration for himself with irony," part essay and part story. It was later to morph into Stephen Hero, then still later into A Portrait of the Artist as a Young Man, over the next 10 years. Ellmann doesn't mention how long it is, but the description of it indicates only a few pages. Dharmabum420 05:44, 9 December 2005 (UTC)
I think what the first poster was getting at... people often say "Portrait of the Artist" to mean "(...as a Young Man)" and the wording makes it seem like he wrote the novel in one day. --24.131.209.132 00:59, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Joyce's two fears

Quote from the article: "Joyce had two great fears: he was deathly afraid of dogs as well as being terrified of thunder and lightning." This has been in the article at least since 12 December 2005. It is currently stuck in between the paragraph on his entrance to literature and the one about his education, and I'm wondering if that should be where it best fits. In my opinion, it doesn't really fit with the flow of the article at this point, yet I'm unsure as to where it should go or if it should even be included. Does the knowledge of these two great fears add enough to the reader's understanding of James Joyce to warrant inclusion in the article? --Ash211 02:59, 12 January 2006 (UTC)

I agree that they don't really fit where they are. It is worth noting that these fears were crippling fears, and often affected his life profoundly (he would turn into a trembling wreck during storms, weather reports often influenced his travel schedules, and he was attacked by dogs on several occassions). Stephen is also afraid of dogs, and his fear of thunder was used prominently in the 100-letter "thunderwords" of Finnegans Wake. That's why I've never taken it out, but it definitely feels awkward where it is. - Dharmabum420 21:51, 12 January 2006 (UTC)
Dogs + thunder + lightning = 3 fears. Unless the dogs and thunder count as one. --OhNoPeedyPeebles (talk) 22:35, 5 April 2008 (UTC)
Ah, peebles; we can't all count to three. ;) More seriously, though, the article currently reads thunderstorms and dogs so two is probably okay. --Matthew K (talk) 01:31, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] A fine point

Mr. Joyce was born in Rathgar. Does this count in making him a genuine "Native of Dublin"? AnnH: can you make the call? -- Mosa123ic 15:13, 17 February 2006 (UTC)

Even in Joyce's day Rathgar was a suburb of Dublin, I don't see any problem with terming hime a Dublin native. In any case he lived in several other Dublin neighbourhoods throughout his early life. --Ryano 15:31, 17 February 2006 (UTC)

Yes, Rathgar is not only part of county Dublin, it is part of Dublin City. Pleidhce (talk) 00:50, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Picture

Where's the picture of Joyce? Can anybody put a legal picture of him on top of the page? Gero

The last one was removed for copyvio. Jwy has put up a picture of his statue in Dublin for the time being. I've been searching for a fair-use portrait for some time with no luck. I've always liked the picture of him from about 1904; while the image is probably copyrighted, I wonder if using a picture of the Penguin edition book cover such as this one could be fair-use? - dharmabum 20:56, 18 February 2006 (UTC)
I've uploaded a low-rez version of that 1904 pic by Curran, the statue pic is hardly adequate. ˉˉanetode╞┬╡ 02:44, 10 June 2006 (UTC)
Great; I hope it passes review. I've grown exceedingly weary of how hard it seems to be to get a simple, low-res, widely available picture illustrating the subject of an article past the copyright fanatics, on this and many other pages. - dharmabum 08:28, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] 1920-1941: Paris and Zurich

This paragraph feels (reads) a little jumbled and haphazard. These 21 years could be stretched, or just tidied. If I had time, I would do so right now. But, thoughts or suggestions are pertinent at the moment. Jimcripps 01:14, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

It's certainly brief. :) The current text is the result of emergency surgery a little while ago, when it turned out that some of the information there was plain wrong. I'd suggest a thorough going-over. HenryFlower 06:32, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Quarks

The article mentions that (according to a Mr Gleick) the derivation of quark from FW is to be doubted because "physicists have pronounced quark to rhyme with cork and not with Mark". I'd heard more or less the opposite version: that the particle is generally pronounced to rhyme with Mark, but that the quarks in the book rhyme with cork (since JJ derived the word from 'quart'). So my question is, are we sure we have Gleick's argument the right way round? HenryFlower 15:17, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

Well, I found the source (it's p. 390). Just one parenthetical sentence, so hardly worth the exposition it was given here. HenryFlower 11:52, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Hamlet?

Isn't it fair to also acknowledge the novels debt to Hamlet as well as Homer? --24.131.209.132 04:20, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Cultural depictions of James Joyce

I've started an approach that may apply to Wikipedia's Core Biography articles: creating a branching list page based on in popular culture information. I started that last year while I raised Joan of Arc to featured article when I created Cultural depictions of Joan of Arc, which has become a featured list. Recently I also created Cultural depictions of Alexander the Great out of material that had been deleted from the biography article. Since cultural references sometimes get deleted without discussion, I'd like to suggest this as a model for the editors here. Regards, Durova 16:13, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] link to james joyce font

    • I'm new to Wiki, so I apologize if I break any ettiquette rules here -

I saw a couple of things on this discussion page regarding Joyce's handwritten documents. I have created a true type font of his handwritting using scans of manuscripts from biographies and the like. I think it might be neat to add to the Joyce links at the bottom of his page. If an experienced Wiki-user thanks it's worthwhile, here's the link: http://www.iwritegood.com/jamesjoycefont.asp thanks for your time. 66.195.56.171 17:15, 25 October 2006 (UTC)mrcjrenner@gmail.com

I think it's great, and I've added the link.--Quywompka 09:30, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Postmodernism

Joyce is mentioned quite prominently in Postmodern literature and the Legacy includes references to both Derrida and Lacan, yet the word "postmodern" is not mentioned anywhere. Perhaps his influence on postmodernism and the criteria by which his work is classified as modern should be mentioned? Vagary 09:44, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] endnotes

The author of The Injustice Collector is given incorrectly as "Max, D.J." It is Max, D.T. thanks!Dtmax 03:19, 21 May 2007 (UTC)d.t. max

[edit] Fair use rationale for Image:CBI - SERIES C - TEN POUND NOTE.PNG

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[edit] Joyce's Languages

I've heard that Joyce was fluent in several languages, including French, German, Italian, and Irish Gaelic, yet the article does not seem to expound on this. --MosheA 02:28, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

Joyce was fluent in French, German, Italian and Danish. He did not speak Irish Gaelic. Pleidhce —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.217.212.54 (talk) 03:57, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] "not altogether persuasively"

I removed this POV statement that was inserted into the sentence that tells of Carol Loeb Schloss's book about Lucia Joyce, in which she alleges that there may have been incest between her and James Joyce. Whether or not she argues persuasively that there was incest is not relevant to whether something has been alleged or not. The reasons for her allegation are listed. This is sufficient enough. It is up to the reader to decide whether or not to read the Schloss book about Lucia. To say that the allegation is "not altogether persuasive" is vague at best and completely dismissive of Lucia (Joyce's muse by his own admission) at worst. Pistolpierre 20:43, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Anthony Burgess

I find it very strange that Anthony Burgess is not mentioned, as he was an influential author, a Joyce-phile and a particular admirer of Finnigans Wake. The fact that he produced a heavily annotated and shortened edition of Finnigans Wake is also overlooked.

Urselius 15:43, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Incest claims are completely unsubstantiated

The references to incest between james and lucia joyce are out of place on wikipedia.

These claims are unsubstantiated, and while arguably possible, cannot be proven. They belong in a book of literary feminist criticism as a theory or idea, not on the internet or wikipedia.

1) Samuel beckett was very close to Lucia joyce. He was aware of the fact that she had mental problems. The wikipedia article suggests that her insanity was a "cover-up" for Joyce's sleeping with her, which is a massive assumption, suggesting that the cover-up went on for decades between doctors, Joyce, Nora, Samuel beckett, Joyce's relatives, etc.

2) The article mentions that letters between Joyce and Lucia were burnt by his son. It does not mention that Samuel Beckett, when asked by joyce's heirs as to what to do with correspondence between him and Lucia, urged them to burn it. His opinion was that by burning her correspondence, Lucia would be spared the brutal analysis by academics that her father was be subjected to.

3) The article states that Finnegans' Wake ends with a father having sex with his daughter, which is untrue. It also says that Ulysses and Portrait of the Artist as a Young man sexualize pre-adolescent girls, which is also not true. Finnegans' does include some discussion of incestual longing by the father, but this is the only basis for Schloss's theory.

That Joyce slept with his daughter is not only an unsubstantiated theory, but it is perpetuated in the spirit of slander. Something so far from a "fact", and representing a very partial or biased assumptions, should not be featured on wikipedia.

I have deleted the section which presents this theory as realistic or true. I respect those contributors who want to discuss this possibility; I would suggest creating a Lucia Joyce article rather than cluttering the James Joyce article with vague possibilities.

Sam newhouse, Snewhous@gmail.com

—Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.61.137.3 (talk) 08:36, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Influences on Joyce and his Style

Does anyone else feel that this article doesn't really put Joyce's work into context? I mean, shouldn't there be some focus on the influence of Dante, Ibsen, Flaubert, Wordsworth and others on his work?

And shouldn't there be some more focus on the aspects his style (subjectivity, epiphany, allusion, interior monologues, stream of consciousness etc.) and the changes of it over each of his works? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Teddybloat (talk • contribs) 15:24, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

I think there should be some focus on the aspects of his style. It can only add to the information of Joyce. --DavidD4scnrt (talk) 08:12, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Artículo en español (spanish article)

Hi, my name is Matías any i'm translate this great and complete article about James Joyce. Thanks for this good job. (Fbuelvas) Bye! 200.89.119.108 (talk) 17:46, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] notable works in the infobox

since the box allows for "works," shouldn't Dubliners and Portrait be added -- they're much more widely read, I'd imagine. And/or, Finnegan's Wake.... Aristophanes68 (talk) 16:24, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

In particular Dubliners should be included as it is seen as one of his greatest works and is included in UCD's first year's Critical Readings modules. (sorry don't know how to sign my name) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Pleasehelp1988 (talk • contribs) 02:47, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Joyce's name in Irish

The article opens with Joyce's name in Irish (Séamus Seoighe). I suggest deleting this reference, since while Joyce was indeed an Irish writer he never really associated himself in any significant way with the revival of the Irish language. He also wrote in English and was a master of English prose style. Opening the article this way may, in a subtle way, create the wrong impression and overstate Joyce's links to the Irish language. I also don't believe noting his name in Irish is that important. Artweary (talk) 16:49, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

I agree. I deleted it. It implies that in some context he is known by this translation, which is simply not true. Alas, it's another example of the tomfoolery that mars every single Wikipedia entry to do with Ireland, or with the Irish language. Pleidhce (talk) 04:01, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] References and External Links for the works

Maybe we should leave the links and references for the works in the articles for the works? Someone interested in a particular work will likely be heading to the individual articles anyway. (John User:Jwy talk) 23:42, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Lucia incest claims

I removed the following few lines of text (explanation afterwards):

There is much correspondence of Joyce's showing that Lucia was his muse in Portrait of the Artist as a Young Man, Ulysses, and Finnegans Wake. All three works include a voyeuristic father with a libidinal interest in nubile pre-pubescent and adolescent girls—very often his own daughter.[1] Finnegans Wake ends with a father having sex with his daughter.[2] There is correspondence from Joyce proving that he spoke with Lucia in a language similar to that of the fragmented multi-language style in Finnegans Wake.

1) Finnegans Wake does not end with a father having sex with his daughter - that is just blatantly not true. Now, incest is everywhere throughout the book, mostly between brothers and sisters, but also in the father's lusting after Issy - but the current quote is a very different thing that bluntly makes it sound like Finnegans Wake ends in a good bout of paedophilic porn, instead of the beautiful monologue of ALP's farewell to the world that it does. In any case, it's all irrelevent - will we go over to the Vladimir Nabokov page and allege that he very well may could have been a paedophile because he wrote "Lolita"? Attempting to infer what may have been the biography of a writer through his works is complelety un-encyclopaedic (although admittedly Stephen does it alot in Ulysses, but he's not writing an encyclopedia article and is, let us remember, a fictional character).

2) Much is made here of the very thin and conjectural notion of voyeuristic fathers in Joyce's works, which in itself bares little relevence for his biographical details. Portrait - where is the voyeuristic father? Ulysses - yes, Bloom is voyeuristic and maybe slightly masochistic and faciliatates his wife's infidelity and all the rest of it, but his awareness of his daughter's budding sexuality does not equate with incestuous feelings per se. the Wake - yes HCE is exactly the character of " voyeuristic father with a libidinal interest in nubile pre-pubescent and adolescent girls—very often his own daughter." but, referring, to my previous point, this provides us with no biographical infomation about James Joyce between the years 1920-1941 in the slightest, only about a character (if he even is that, which he probably not) - that's for the Finnegans Wake page, not the James Joyce biography.

3) I believe i do remember reading somewhere about the similarities in Joyce's letters to lucia and the language in FW - most likely i would think it was in Ellman. But in the article this statement comes before any mention of FW or its linguistic style. Also, let's get a proper, un-editorial biographical reference, like ellman, into te equation.

4) If somebody has made an inference of incest, well look we can leave it in as it's referenced and all the rest, but let us not treat it as "fact", and let us not allow it to inform the WHOLE text of his biography for the course of 21 years - you know joyce did ALOT of things between 1920-1941 besides maybe possibly having (though quite equally possibly not) lustful thoughts about his daughter. I'm not a prude or a Joyce defender or anything, but it's lobsided and conjectural, and all in all not very biographical or encyclopedic.

that's my 2 cents - also i think there should be a lucia joyce page as she was a fascinating figure and very relevent. any comments? Warchef (talk) 10:09, 17 May 2008 (UTC)

Warchef: I couldn't agree more. I think that even now, the wording is a bit irresponsible, though it is much better. I would personally vote for removal of the reference altogether.--Paulski.mcb (talk) 12:59, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

Considering that no one voiced any alternative opinion here on the talk page, I have decided to be bold and remove the contentious allegation. If you have an argument as to why it should be re-instated, please outline it here on the talk page, and I'm sure we can find a wording or approach that finds consensus. Please find below the line which I have removed:
In her 2003 work, Lucia Joyce: To Dance in the Wake, Carol Loeb Shloss infers from this destruction of letters that there may have been incest between Lucia and her father and between Lucia and her brother Georgio.[3], but this allegation remains largely unsubstantiated.
peaceWarchef (talk) 08:51, 31 May 2008 (UTC)
No problems for me. Xxanthippe (talk) 10:18, 31 May 2008 (UTC).


[edit] Martello

Tom Stoppard had a great line in Travesties: "What did you do in the Great War, Mr. Joyce?" "I wrote Ulyses, What did you do?"

There was a review of a biography of Nora I heard on the radio (haven't read it) which suggested he kept her awake by laughing out loud by thinking about what he had written during the day while writing Finnegan's Wake.

Hemmingway makes several references to Joyce (and at least one to Nora, Giorgia, and Lucia) in A Moveable Feast A.times.B,equals (talk) 21:26, 31 May 2008 (UTC)