Talk:James II of England

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This article was referenced by the press:

  • Extreme Blogging., Matt Rand for Forbes. Part of the Best of the web. Glowing report, and has this to say about Wikipedia:
    We asked Frederick Allen, Managing Editor of American Heritage [published by Forbes], to compare entries from Britannica Online and the Wikipedia. He was skeptical about the Wikipedia, but after throwing several queries at the two encyclopedias (Haydn, Millard Fillmore, warblers), he admitted, "it looks as if Wikipedia's gotten a lot better, more thorough and more accurate." Even the Wikipedia's James II of Britain article beat Britannica in size, reach and outside references. But Allen cautioned that there's "still the underlying problem that you can be sure of the accuracy of what it presents, because of the fact that it's open to contributions from the public."

Contents

[edit] Abdication

Abdication mentions that he tossed the Great Seal into the Thames. Any truth to this? I think it should be mentioned. Kent Wang 07:56, 31 Mar 2004 (UTC)

It's true. Historians aren't exactly sure why, but suspect that he was trying to prevent the calling of a Parliament in his absence. Coemgenus 12:10, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Style

I've always seen his full style as "James VII of Scotland and II of England" - should we have at this way round at the start of the article? Timrollpickering 13:53, 22 Dec 2004 (UTC)

It would make sense & would come closer to the conventions of the British Government in using the Highest number (eg Elizabeth II of UK rather than Elizabeth I of UK, despite the fact the previous Elizabeth was only queen of England) but there is a lot of controversy over changing titles, just see the talk page for James VI & I, as wikipedia policy is to use the title of the 'most important' kingdom as the page name & the main title. AllanHainey 08:26, 23 September 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Lord Lieutenant of Ireland?

When the King is in Ireland he would not be the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, would he? He would simply be the King of Ireland in Ireland. Since he's in Ireland, there's no need for anybody else to be his Lieutenant, but it doesn't make sense to say that James was the Lord Lieutenant, does it? john k 21:08, 1 Feb 2005 (UTC)


[edit] Accuracy dispute?

Why is this article on the list of accuracy disputes (last box)? NawlinWiki 04:33, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] James and the Catholic Succession.

A number of small edits to correct errors of fact and interpretation.

1. It is quite wrong to say that James made no attempt himself to recover his throne. His campaign in Ireland in 1689-90 was to be the first stage towards this end. This is recognized further on in the article.

2. James conversion to Catholicism in the late 1660s was a badly kept secret; but secret it was. It only became openly known when he resigned as Lord High Admiral, unable to take the oath prescribed by the 1673 Test Act. Shaftesbury was not involved in the introduction of the Test Act. He was in government at the time, a member of Charles' Cabal ministry.

3. James did not 'wisely' decide to leave for Brussells in 1680; he was ordered to go by the King, anxious to reduce the political temperature in England. James, as stiff and stubborn as ever, only went with reluctance.

4. James was never 'leader' of the Tory Party.

5. Conservative Anglicans were bound to support the legitimate king as an article of faith, whether he be Catholic or not. Many continued to do so even after the Glorious Revolution, including some of the bishops who had opposed his policy of indulgence.

6. I suspect there are very few-if any-academic historians who would describe James as 'cruel' because of the treatment of the Monmouth rebels. This is a very ninteenth century 'whiggish' view.

7. I think the reference to there being no 'reliable evidence' for the alleged substitution of Prince James-the warming pan theory-is best left out altogether. It was a story born in the political hysteria of the times, and had ceased to be taken seriously-even by the opponents of the Jacobites-not many years after it was invented. I think Queen Anne was the last prominent figure to take it seriously; although this is likely to have been the wishful thinking of a bad conscience.

Rcpaterson 08:47, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] In Case no one has noticed...

Someone has vandaized the top part of this (22 may)

  Hopefully this is referring to the "Early Life" section that is actually James I, not James II.

Also, this needs to be fixed in the "Early Life" section: In September 1660, the Duke of York (who was also created Duke of Albany in Scotland) have sex with Lady Anne Hyde, the daughter of Charles's chief minister, Edward Hyde, 1st Earl of Clarendon.

[edit] Despotism

I'm quite disappointed that Wikipedia is following the traditional biased view that James II was despotic. The article reads "Many of his subjects distrusted his religious policies and despotism, leading a group of them to depose him in the Glorious Revolution". James II championed religious toleration and equality for Catholics and other dissenters. As such, he was one of the most laudable kings in English history. If a reference to despotism must be included, it should read "perceived despotism" or some other qualification. NicholasJB 20:26, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

A point worth raising. We will probably never know the real James, since history is written by the victors. However, in religion he was a man of his times. He only believed in religious freedom for Roman Catholics. He advocated religious toleration as a means of freeing Catholics to take positions in the government and in the army. And he was a zealot. Indeed, the pope of the time counselled him to practise moderation.--Gazzster (talk) 03:20, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

I guess he is a despot because he actually supported dissenters and catholics....the protestant establishment always get what they want, even in the history books! I'm a Scottish Protestant but it still doesn't stop me seeing this. -CM —Preceding unsigned comment added by 210.84.5.118 (talk) 02:59, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Despotism?

I dont think that Nicholos (despotic ruler) understands the word. A despotic ruler is one who rules with absolute power. It is without qualifiaction as with regard to how this absolute power is carried out ie. malevelontly or cruely. I dont think one can argue that James tried to sollicit and legitimise the monarchs power while limiting parliaments giving him more power than any other monarch since the despot Henry VIII. Suggesting that the declaration of Indulgance, where religious freedoms were granted was allturistic is simplistic. Passing this act would be a legitmate vehicle through which he could reconvert England back to Catholicism.

[edit] Omissions and Significance of rule neglected

This article fails to get to why James II reign was so contentious and was such a turning point in England’s History :

1) Not since Henry VIII had a King tried to hold absolute monarchy 2) I dont think you draw significance to the Catholic soldier test-case, the Declaration of Indulgence and the role they played in James‘s attempt to Catholicise England . James employed catholic army officers possibly concerned about a second rebellion (against the test act). Condemned by Parliament James approached the judiciary and using the catholic soldier as a test case (he was wavered from test act) and removing any unsympathetic Lords he proceeded. James was successful and The Lord Chief Justice summed up "The Kings of England are Sovereign Princess, the laws of England are the Kings Laws, it is an inseparable prerogative of the Kings of England to dispense with particular laws upon particular necessary reasons and of those reasons the King himself is sole judge". Essentially Parliament could pass laws but it was up to the King if they where employed and to whom. He now had the legitimacy to undue anti-catholic laws on a case by case basis. Previously loyal Tories now struggled with the conflict of unconditional support of an 'absolute’ monarch and the sanctity of the CofE .

Since the CofE (powerful and rich with daily contact with the normal people of England) had promised support to the King this put James in a strong bargaining position. James announced the 'declaration of indulgence' (religious tolerance) and charged all clergy to read it out in every church. This now troubled the church, where they to follow the head of their church, the King, but go against what they believed was Gods will. A petition was drawn up by seven bishops that criticised the declaration and the kings royal authority. The Bishops were arrested and placed in the Tower of London as political prisoners. James completely misjudged the peoples popular view. They were treated as heroes, crowds cheered and jailors treated them as guests. James’s power became questioned. The question of the legality of the Kings dispensing power brought great debate (more so than the guilt of the bishops) at the trial and the bishops were found not guilty.

3) In the overthrow of the anointed James II for William- England had essentially elected a diluted form of monarchy. This was popular as people saw as a change from absolute god-like monarchs to inauguration likened to a prince-president. The bill of rights meant the crown couldn’t suspend laws made by parliament, raise taxes without the orders of parliament, or command an army and illegal for the Monarch to be a papist or be married to a papist King (not since James has an English Monarch ever been a catholic or married to one. Now the Monarch was to have religion of people not vice-versa. James II attempt to attain absolute monarchy (like Henry VIII and Louis XIV) had failed- and to this day no Monarch has not since attempted. James II disregard for the constitutional monarchy lead to his other throw The glorious revolution disposed with the supremacy act and brought in a new age in England . In choosing another king from the anointed, severely limiting the monarchy’s power and making parliament the most powerful lawmaking and administrative body they had taken steps to becoming arguably the first modern state with a constitutional monarchy. This is important as England emerged not as a nation trying to imitate the powerful absolute Monarchs of France but with a powerful Government and aggressively modern state which now instead of a bystander in European politics would become one of the most powerful states in Europe. This arguably had huge consequences for the rest of the world!!

4) Ann suggested the baby was a changling (Mary was too well after her previous complications and James was far too confident that they would have a boy). The story was embroilled and took hold across England. Ann even convinced her sister husband that it was true. William could gain control naturally but the birth of a catholic son complicated this. The importance is that William’s acceptance of the changling story would give him justification for the invasion of England as it was widely believed at the time.


5)It should be noted that their was a ground swell of popular support for William. Landing in England William marched through cheering crowds in Exeter. However he had to face 25000 troops of James‘s troops at Salisbury plain-everything depended on how James could corral his troops. However, James became ill and nose bleeds led him to leave his troops! When your leader is not prepared to fight what confidence does it give your troops. His leading general and own daughter Ann left for William along with many troops as James left for London.


6) More emphasis should be given to the modern day consequences of the Battle of the Boyne as this Protestant-Catholic encounter is still emotive to this day in Protestant/Catholic Ireland, with Orange Protestant marches commemorating this day still emote much passion and controversy. --Philm101 14:25, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Succession Boxes

The succession box title British royalty should be changed to English, Scottish and Irish royalty. GoodDay (talk) 22:34, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Intro

The statement in the intro that James was king of England, Scotland & Ireland till December 88 is at best misleading, at worst simply false:

  • In Feb 89, the English Parliament retroactively declared that he had abdicated the English throne in attempting to flee the country in December.
  • In Apr 89, the Scottish Parliament declared that he had forfeited the Scottish throne. It did not specify any particular event as precipitating this, so it's hard to see how this could be backdated, & I believe he is generally regarded as still King of Scots till April, as eg in the monarchy's website.
  • He remained King of Ireland until 1690/91, as mentioned in the article.

13:59, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Duke of York – since when?

The Ecyclopedia Britannica (2002) says: »He was created Duke of York in January 1634«, Wikipedia insists on 1644. Now what? --ECeDee (talk) 22:26, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

Anybody knowledgeable? ––ECeDee (talk) 08:00, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

He was called Duke of York since birth, but wasn't formally invested with the title until 1644. See [1], for example. Coemgenus 14:09, 22 April 2008 (UTC)