Talk:Jacques-Jean Barre

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[edit] Jean-Jacques or Jacques-Jean

I think his name should be "Jean-Jacques", not "Jacques-Jean".Askari Mark | Talk

You're right "Jean-Jacques" is the most frequent form of this name in French, but this engraver's name is actually "Jacques-Jean" (after looking at the Dallay French stamps catalog). Sebjarod 18:32, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

It might be a mis-spelling there. I'm a medal collector and the several references I have list him as "Jean-Jacques". I'll do some more checking as well. Askari Mark | Talk 18:54, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

I checked Forrer and Base Joconde and both list his name as "Jean Jacques". I guess I need to figure out how to change an article title. Askari Mark | Talk 02:35, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

I couldn't find instructions for renaming an article, so I have made a new one and copied all the info over and changed the links referencing it as well. The next step should probably be a speedy delete, but I'll wait until you've had a chance to read this. Askari Mark | Talk 03:01, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

In French philatelic books (note : he engraved the first two french stamp series), use of Jacques-Jean Barre : Yvert et Tellier's Timbres de France. Le Spécialisé (ISBN 9782868140975) by expert Pascal Behr, Michèle Chauvet and Jean-François Brun from the Académie de philatélie + Flohic edition's Le Patrimoine du timbre-poste français (ISBN 2842340353) directed by Jean-François Brun and using the collections of the Musée de la Poste (Paris).

In French numismatic book, use of Jean-Jacques Barre : Editions des Chevau-légers' Le Franc. Argus des monnaies françaises, 4th edition, (ISBN 9782903629335).

So, speedy delete will be a bad idea.

Since you have already rewrited the article, I may consider you're already finished with the discussion. :) Only a copy of the birth act of this man will give us the first order, but not the one he used.

One more thing : thank you for asking to an administrator to delete Jean-Jacques Barre before asking a speedy delete of Jacques-Jean Barre since it will destroy the history with the former authors of the article. Sebjarod 17:03, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

No, I would never request a delete before hearing from other authors active on the page. While it's not uncommon to see a mistake carried through a few sources, I am at a loss as to why two different collecting areas uniformly report his given name differently. Usually when I cannot easily resolve such an issue, I usually go with the Base Joconde, which is an official French government site with (limited) biographical records of famous Frenchmen. Do you know of any other non-numismatic or non-philatelic sources which might resolve the issue? The Web Gallery of Art and some others which focus more on sculpture give "Jean-Jacques". I have never come upon this before, but is it an occasional practice in France to transpose given names? Perhaps one of your sources has a facsimile of a document which he signed? Askari Mark | Talk 18:38, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

No other sources than those I cite. Sebjarod 15:49, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

I note that the Web Gallery of Art write Jean-Jacques Barré... I never met the accent on his name. Personnaly, I think the Jean-Jacques is false.

For 19th century France, the problem is usually how many or which one of his birth names the person used when alived, rarely in wwhat order. Sebjarod 17:15, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

The accented Barré is incorrect. There are some engravers/sculptors who used it, but this person did not. Unfortunately, since many people with an accented letter in their name sometimes write it without, it's often hard to know for whom it is "official", so some researchers — especially non-French — simply assume that if some with that name use it, all must. I've done quite a bit of research on the correct full and familiar names of quite a few engravers and I know there are many errors, and I have run into a "name switch" in sources only a few times. I have always been able to sort out the correct version before, but this is the first time I've seen such a disagreement so "ingrained" among both English and French sources. I've long gone with "Jean-Jacques" because of my primary sources, the "normalcy" of it, and the fact that the Base Joconde gives it as such. One would suppose the official French government site would get it correct, though. I don't know. I suppose we should follow the author's usage of "Jacques-Jean" until research turns up the "real truth". Merci, Askari Mark | Talk 02:07, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

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