Talk:Jacob Zuma

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Should we have some quotes ? What comes to mind is his answer as to wheather or not he would describe the Shaik affair as a dark spot on his credibility : "Not at all".

Is he really "one of the few" Zulu politicians? I don't think they're that few. Though perhaps slightly under-represented. --Taejo 7 July 2005 11:23 (UTC)

One of the few in the ANC. Most Zulu politicians are in the IFP. Wizzy…☎ July 7, 2005 12:07 (UTC)

Hi, [Edited for ease of continuing this talk page--A lengthy explanation of why I thought his Zulu identity should not be foregrounded in the first paragraph of the piece, because of the political implications of doing so for an ANC official--viewable in earlier versions of this talk page]. Joewright

Yes, you have a good point. Wizzy…☎ July 8, 2005 14:37 (UTC)

Contents

[edit] Rise to National Leadership

Is it really appropriate to have details of his divorce under the "Rise to National Leadership" section. I would have thought that this belonged under details of his personal life. Is this a mistake, or is something being insinuated here? Regards, anon 13 March 2008 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.243.235.215 (talk) 11:25, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Zimbabwe

(1) Is the following statement really true: "Due to South Africa's proximity, strong trade links, and similar struggle credentials, South Africa is in a unique position to influence politics in Zimbabwe". People who assert this are normally of the opinion that South Africa _should_ be trying to influence politics in Zimbabwe, but I have seen no evidence that South Africa would be able to exert some kind of influence on Zimbabwean politics or (as I think is meant in this case) the Zimbabwean government.

(2) The following statement is also interesting: "Western diplomats have attempted to persuade South Africa's President Thabo Mbeki to take a harder line with Robert Mugabe." No one can deny that there was some difference of strategy between some western countries and the South African government at times. At the same time, why is this so important to be mentioned under Zuma in Wikipedia? For a more nuanced or sophisticated view of the differences (and agreement) between South Africa and some Western countries over handling Zimbabwe, you only need to look at the 2003 meeting between Mbeki and Bush: "The president [Mbeki] is the point man on this important subject [Zimbabwe]," Mr Bush told more than 200 reporters. "He is working it very hard. He’s in touch with the parties involved. He’s making good progress, and the United States supports him in this effort." http://news.scotsman.com/zimbabwe/Mbeki-accused-of-lying-to.2442658.jp The main controversy surely seems to be that the Zimbabwean opposition (and some South African opposition and ANC allies) have problems with Mbeki's strategy. The US (and other western governments) were relatively satisfied with Mbeki's approach for most of the period. I personally would have liked Mbeki to be more robust, but I can't really agree with the opinion as expressed in the article here and I wonder if it even fits in to an article on Zuma? Regards, anon 13 March 2008 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.243.235.215 (talk) 11:46, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Rape charges

Thanks to Joewright for details on the rape charges - but aren't we being a little harsh to spread it so thick when charges have not even been laid ? I guess the next week will tell us more. Wizzy…☎ 07:28, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

Hi Wizzy, My perception of the challenge here is that the charges are so much part of the political reality right now--with news stories about it, news reports purportedly citing sources close to Zuma saying he might resign, COSATU and the SACP distancing themselves, etc--that to not put them in the Wiki would be to ignore a big story--but I think we should keep revisiting whether we're doing Zuma justice in airing rumors. I'm open to any and all ideas about how to balance newsiness with fairness to Zuma. Joewright 18:32, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

Update: I have tried to revise the page with regard to Wizzy's concern. Joewright 21:40, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

"The charge of rape is considered much more serious in South Africa." This sentence makes no sense. Much more serious than what? More serious than other charges? More serious than rape charges elsewhere?

[edit] Jacob Zuma rape trial

Hi, I have taken the liberty of creating a new article dealing with the rape trial and related issues. The implications are that this article can be cleaned up and material incorporated in to the Jacob Zuma rape trial as deemed fit. Regards, Gregorydavid 08:49, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Cited elsewhere

Whether I'm proud of this or disturbed by it, I still haven't decided, but the M+G cited this article and even used one of its phrases ("widely welcomed by the business community") in a recent JZ timeline: [1] Joewright 21:41, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Attention template

This article has some sources, but not nearly enough to support all the unattributed "views" in later sections. The early parts are mostly uncontroversial and factual (but could still use better sources), but after his criminal charges, there's a lot of discussion of this group and this expression of support and too many weasel words. The article could be greatly improved if much of this were trimmed to only the necessary encyclopedic discussion, and POV expressions are given authoritative citations. --Dhartung | Talk 21:19, 6 March 2006 (UTC)


The more urgent reason this article needs attention is that it represents breaking news as his trial develops. Unfortunately I do not have the time to devote to it as I did in earlier months. I hope others--especially South African wikipedians--will step in soon.
I'm glad to review the article further if you want to be specific about where you think it goes wrong (or just be bold and edit), but as far as I can tell from a quick look back, the attributions of groups supporting him or opposing him are all from the news articles cited in the article or in pages found in the external links. The reason for the last sections are that from his corruption charges to the current day, Jacob Zuma is not just a man, he is a political symbol. His story represents a major event in post-apartheid South African history and at several points his story has represented a potentially explosive political crisis within the ANC.
Some have also argued that the cultural and linguistic politics of the Zuma story are also important. For various reasons unique to South African politics, these have been only obliquely discussed in verifiable sources, and I have regularly deleted discussions of these issues that are not supported by verifiable sources.
At any rate, for these reasons and probably more, I think the article does require discussion of the larger political meaning of his current place in South African politics. Joewright 06:40, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

I have updated some of the news portions of this article, while leaving in much of the political analysis. Based on my point of view about the article, I have removed the cleanup tag. I also removed a POV tag since I read the original objection as not really a POV objection but a feeling that there were too many vague statements about various players' POVs. Others can feel free to reinstate either or both tags if they feel the page needs them, but please provide explanations of what needs to change in your view--or be bold. I feel strongly that the article needs to contain explanations of the significance of the Zuma story, rather than simply a recounting of events; but would be very pleased if others were prepared to improve these portions with further citations, etc. I also would appreciate South African wikipedians' involvement in this issue--i.e., perspectives on what is and is not important about this story from an SA politics point of view. Joewright 09:25, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] uncited assertion

I removed this clause from the Rape charges section as I could not find any mention in either of the two references:

and argued that because she was an AIDS activist, the accuser would not have sex without a condom

-213.219.184.204 22:47, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] unencylopedic commentary

I've also removed this commentary from Analysis:

Whether or not Zuma ever recovers from his current situation fully enough to vie for the Presidency himself, the story of the charges against Zuma and his firing as Deputy President remains one of the most important in post-apartheid South African politics. Zuma's story is a highly dramatic beginning to the succession struggle for the Presidency, and also sets a precedent for how post-apartheid South Africa will deal with office holders who are alleged to have committed crimes. The saga of how South Africans responded to the corruption charges against Zuma also provided a vivid and public example of some of the rifts within the ANC and its constituencies -- divisions which may well shape the future of political debate in South Africa.

-213.219.184.204 22:56, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Zuma vs. The Media

I have added a new section to this entry regarding Zuma's sudden decision to sue almost all the media outlets that dared to challenge him during his rape trial. This is South Africa's largest lawsuit filed by a single person to date.

It would be great if someone from the media could flesh this out, because I know for a fact that many SA media outlets use Wikipedia as a source (although, usually not cited.)

Stuart Steedman 07:24, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Conservative Party?

We have a conservative party in South Africa? And they have MPs?

What are you refering, too?! is it relevant. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 198.54.202.250 (talk) 16:13, 11 February 2007 (UTC).

The Conservative Party is now defunct. However the advocate was an MP while the party was still represented in parliament. I have changed the entry by adding 'Former' to the description.

As to relevance, that is debatable. Many news reports on the lawsuits referred to this fact (www.mg.co.za/articlePage.aspx?articleid=276142&area=/breaking_news/breaking_news__national ; www.iol.co.za/index.php?set_id=1&click_id=3011&art_id=qw1152097203968B255 ; www.minesandcommunities.org/Action/press1149.htm · Cached page; www.iafrica.com/pls/procs/SEARCH.ARCHIVE?p_content_id=652862&p_site_id=2 ; www.iafrica.com/pls/procs/SEARCH.ARCHIVE?p_content_id=652862&p_site_id=2 · · . I guess it's simply that journalists see it as ironicalthat of a former member of a right-wing party advancing white interests only, would represent a black politician who is viewed as being more on the left side of the politcal spectrum. As to the advocate's (former?) political views, see for example www.iss.co.za/Pubs/Monographs/No81/Chap2.html · Cached page

[edit] Zuma Controversy and Apology

Added the bit about Zuma's apology with the appropriate source. This may need some fleshing out from someone else in the know.

Stuart Steedman 15:04, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] The infamous shower scene

Excuse me if I'm wrong, but didn't Zoomer later say that the reason why he had the shower was not because he was getting rid of the HIV (according to him the chances of him contracting it were negligible) but rather because he knew that he had had sex with a filthy person and he knew what type of person she was and he wanted to get rid of the filth (even less intelligent response)? Zyxoas (talk to me - I'll listen) 01:06, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

You're thinking of a report such as [2] - if you look at the cited reference though he did seem to initially state he took the shower to reduce his chances of being infected [3]. Probably need to see the court transcript though. Greenman 09:44, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Money laundering

Zuma had allegedly been involved in a little tax evasion and money-laundering - issues that had not come up in the Shaik trial. --196.208.71.62 23:26, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Popular struggle song

At ANC rally's Zuma loves to sing the struggle song Awuleth'Umshini Wami. South Africa's minister of defence Mosiuoa Lekotha has openly criticized Zuma on the use of the song, saying that it belong in the past. Directly translated Awuleth'Umshini Wami means "Bring me my machine(gun)" --196.208.71.62 00:01, 11 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Timeline, politics, charges

I would like to keep his political timeline above the detailed discussion of the court cases against him. The article needs :-

  • Intro para
  • Early life
  • Political history, to present day, perhaps including a summary of court cases
  • Court cases detail
  • Private life

Wizzy…☎ 10:31, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

The corruption charges are now spread throughout the article. I suggest that the meat of them be put in South African Arms Deal, and a summary be put in one place here. He has not been convicted yet, and there seems too much emphasis here. Wizzy…☎ 15:58, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Political positions

We really need a section on his political positions. South African politicians are not _only_ about scandals and controversies, right? --Apoc2400 (talk) 20:02, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

I must say that the scandal is pretty pervasive here though. I'm not entirely sure what his positions are on many things - clearly his stance on certain things is obvious/reported on, but on many issues he appears almost silent or, alternatively, his quotes are not reported.

Random other comment: I wish people would think before editing these articles. Barack vs. Hilary - DOES IT MATTER? The Democrats remain, in principle, the same regardless. One person doesn't make the party. Ditto Mr Zuma, the ANC still has principles which he will be expected to subscribe to, this is not the end of the world as we know it. Kit Berg (talk) 20:49, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Jacob Zuma set to be president of south africa

Immediate update. Jacob has been elected the new president of the ANC at a conference in polokwane. Im not sure how this is gonna end up, but I have doubts about it being good. T.Neo (talk) 14:14, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

Hell no is this good. But hey, WP isn't really the place... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 41.240.69.105 (talk) 19:10, 19 December 2007 (UTC)
Opinions about the matter are totally irrelevant here. Verifiable, neutral, statements of fact only please. Roger (talk) 19:45, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

I was stating that we need to update the article based on current events. T.Neo (talk) 07:12, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Weasel words

User:196.212.27.11 has now twice added the following comment:

Analysts say the impact of his song "Bring me my machine gun" on the ANC delegates and their votes must not be underestimated.

I have now reverted it twice on the grounds that it constitutes weasel wording which needs a citation to make it useful. We need to know which analysts say that and what the probable impact would be. --Slashme (talk) 13:51, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Pronouncing his middle name?

Can someone fluent in isiZulu please help with pronounciation and also explain the meaning? Roger (talk) 13:54, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

I have no idea what it means, but I'll see if I can quickly whip up an IPA pronunciation guide. Tebello TheWHAT!!?? 20:20, 21 December 2007 (UTC)


Try this: [geɮejiɬekisɑ]. Tebello TheWHAT!!?? 20:50, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Off-Topic

[edit] He is a Social Democrat

I watched [this|http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GPZ0bUizV_Q] on Youtube and thought, Jacob Zuma seems like a social democrat. My proof is that his habitus is the kind of habitus, which originates from the contemporary middle class families, who embrace capitalism regardless of the Western country and participate in politics just to gain personal power. I used to go to the Finnish Social Democracy Party where I saw this kind of habitus. What striked me was that they are very arrogant and mediocre minds, who think they can get everything they want but don't have any good ideas to offer. The smile is just a front used to gain power. They don't actually deserve to be elected. They are not evil, but weaklings in moral judgements. I might be wrong but I believe I can stereotype and spot a Social Democrat anywhere. Then I saw that his affiliation with the Socialist International, the Social Democratic organization and thought, what did I say! It is important to fix Democratic Socialism as Social Democracy, as they actually are 2 separate articles on Wikipedia, for example in regards to Socialist Revolution and the Welfare State. Teemu Ruskeepää (talk) 18:57, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] The introduction is getting a bit top heavy with speculation and analysis

We need to tidy up this article and move all speculation, developments and analysis into the appropriate sections..Gregorydavid (talk) 16:32, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Weasel words

In regards to the comment that "certain analysts" and "his supporters" say that he is likely to be the next president of SA, please see Wikipedia:Avoid weasel words. If you know who said it, provide a citation. If you don't, just leave it a bald statement. If you feel that it's a doubtful claim, put in a {{fact}} tag. --Slashme (talk) 06:44, 9 January 2008 (UTC)