Talk:Jacob Riis

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	Jacob Riis has been listed as one of the Language and literature good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can delist it, or ask for a reassessment.
August 27, 2006 Good article nominee Listed

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A photograph by Riis to be added to the article when it gets a tad longer and there is room. Oh, and an official title would be nice too. :-) --LV ^{(Dark Mark)} 18:09, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

This is an important person for things such as school projects and this article must be expanded! -User:Wordwhiz

ya i just finished a project about the press in the progressive era and this was pretty helpful but it needs a little more- ICEYHOT

This line

"For the contemporary reader, excerpts like this will stain his reputation as a progressive journalist."

is POV. It needs to be restated, or even better, removed. The point it tries to make is not central to the article. If it is to remain, the implication that the opinions stated are somehow unusual needs to be dealt with. Such opinions are in no way indicative of how "progressive" a journalist was, considering the period.

• I will be replacing this statement with factual analysis of Riis's critics, rather than relying on this unsupported generalization. Cheers! --Chuchunezumi 23:10, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Planned Additions

I have done some research on Riis, and I plan additions very soon. Thanks! --Chuchunezumi 21:26, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

• I have added the tag to note this article is about to be redone. I have done some research on Riis, and I want to expand the article in a way that may edit out most of what is already there. If this is troublesome to anyone, please let me know...I'm not trying to disregard the efforts of others. Thanks! --Chuchunezumi 22:40, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Revisions

Obviously, I have made, and continue to be in the process of making, major revisions to this article. I would appreciate any feedback anyone would like to offer. Cheers! --Chuchunezumi 23:08, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Stub status

Though this article is still under some construction, I think it no longer qualifies as a stub. I have removed these tags from the article. Cheers! --Chuchunezumi 18:58, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Things remaining

I am done for the time being expanding this article. I'm going to remove the under construction tag. There are a few items that still may be introduced if someone can find adequate references, but I'm at a loss to locate. Cheers! --Chuchunezumi 21:42, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

• Jacob A. Riis Settlement in Manhatten
• Information about grandchildren and legacy in general
• Other trivia items: I'm sure there's a high school somewhere named after him (or whatever).

If something is just trivia, skip it, please.

When I first encountered the article an hour or so ago, it had a "trivia" section with two items. Neither seemed very important, but both seemed more than merely trivial. I therefore moved them both elsewhere and deleted the "Trivia" heading, which too often leads people to add silly stuff about the Simpsons, etc etc. -- Hoary 07:29, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

• I agree with your reasoning, but that Caleb Carr novel really doesn't belong anywhere in the text, since it is purely trivia, especially not early life. I took that out altogether. Chuchunezumi 17:21, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

• • Well done. I have to admit that I didn't much care for it. There's more than enough important stuff to write about Riis before resorting to trivia (or, as it's euphemistically called by young editors, "References in popular culture"). Unfortunately, though, "my" library is closed for the summer so I can't be of much help right now. -- Hoary 22:23, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

• That was a part of the original stub when I found this article and decided it needed to be expanded. Since 90% of the original stub was removed or rewritten, I was trying to be accomodating and hang on to one or two of the original elements. I definately think that memorials, be they the park listed, or as I said above, high schools, photographic magazines, whatever...could have their own section without calling it trivia. I agree that most frequently "trivia" sections are orphanages for useless items that don't really belong in the article. Thanks again for your help! Chuchunezumi 19:24, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Good article nominee

I've decided to nominate this article for good article status not so much because I am that confident in its quality, but because nobody has been able to offer any feedback on what I've done. If this article fails, it fails; I'd just like the commentary that accompanies. Cheers! Chuchunezumi 00:09, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

It's a good start, but requires some more rewriting before it can qualify as a Good article, I believe. I've made an intial stab at some rewriting and will come back to do more later. I have some questions reagrding some details, too. Again, later. Pinkville 13:57, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for your attention! Please, ask away! I've been dying for anyone to lend a hand. Cheers! Chuchunezumi 17:22, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

The first question: early in the article "Elisabeth Gortz" is mentioned, but later her named has lengthened to "Elisabeth Gortz Nielsen"... which is correct (assuming she hadn't married already before marrying Riis!)? Possible morew questions to come, but for now... Pinkville 17:02, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

Because I saw a couple different sources use the names in context with the specific times, it was my impression she had married before, but I found nothing saying this outright. Given that (until now), I've had nobody to discuss this with, I just went with the name I had in the citation. What do you think should be done about this? Just use the maiden name? Chuchunezumi 19:17, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

I can't find any references to "Elisabeth Gortz Nielsen" myself, if there's nothing substantial to back up that version of the name I'd say remove the "Nielsen" altogether. Pinkville 20:34, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

I'll do it now. Cheers! Chuchunezumi 04:28, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

I don't feel comfortable enough with the subject matter to give it a full merit review for Good Article status. However, I will give you some commentary on a couple things.

1. I've tagged a few areas of the article that a source citation would be nice. They are not particularly "controversial" statements but overall a reference would be helpful, especially for a reader wanting to follow up and read more about the subject.
2. The photo in Immigration to the United States has a caption that is hard to read without straining. It would probably be better to add a caption underneath the photo either with the text from the image or some other description.
3. Right now you just have links to subject's work under the External Links section. If there are other links to scholarly reviews or other relevant information for an interested reader to follow, they would be a nice inclusion.
4. An area that would be a worthwhile expansion would be his writing career (You mention he wrote 12 books) and what type of lasting legacy there is. In regards to the legacy, it would be a nice POV balance to the Criticism section.

Overall though, I did enjoy the article and learned quite a bit. :) Agne 12:14, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

I have passed it as a Good Article. I thought it was quite thorough and well referenced, though of course there is still room for improvement. In addition to the critiques above, I would contextualize the criticism directed at him to not make him seem exceptional for his time, I would expand more on his family life, and I would elaborate on the memorials to him - there are many more public facilities named after him. Haiduc 15:31, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

• Wow! Fantastic! Thanks to everyone for the sage advice and the help improving this article! I shall attempt to continue improvements on this article, but unfortunately, until I find better references, I'm afraid I'm at a wall with several of the concerns. Cheers! Chuchunezumi 17:28, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Teaching History Online

"Teaching History Online: "Jacob Riis", cited here and there, is dead. -- Hoary 07:33, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

• No it isn't. I just checked and it is fine. Links do go down temporarily! Cheers!Chuchunezumi 17:18, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

• • You're right. Sorry about the false alarm. Hoary 22:20, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Riis's dog

I've removed the dog's alleged name. I can find nothing to support this and suspect it is just vandalism. Please cite this if it is to be added again. Cheers! Chuchunezumi 18:00, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Sequence of Riis children

Unless you have a citation to say otherwise, stop changing the order of birth for Riis. If you think he is anything other than the third of fifteen children born to his parents, you need to back up your assertion. I am willing to accept the possibility that this is in error, but since the numbers keep changing I can only assume this is vandalism. Cheers! Chuchunezumi 18:33, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Criticism section

To add "which was common in his time" is, in my opinion, in violation of NPOV and also a generality not backed by the citation given in the section. Adding this statement to the paragraph where it appeared implied that this was the assertion given in the work referenced, which is not necessarily the case, and hence deceiving. It apologizes for his behavior, rather than presenting additional fact. If this is to be added, it would need actual numbers and references; what is currently there just presents the fact that there is criticism of his writings, and presents a quotation, but doesn't attempt to qualify them or criticize them. I have removed that statement for that reason. Cheers! Chuchunezumi 18:45, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Autobiography and wife

As far as I can see from my notes, there is no "a" in the quotation in the criticism section. Keep in mind that this was written about a century ago, and this is most likely meant as "womankind" sort of thing, or a collective. Think "I am woman, hear me roar". Cheers! Chuchunezumi 22:55, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

• See Jacob A. Riis, The Making of an American (London: Macmillan, 1970), 283. Chuchunezumi 00:58, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Staging Photos

I was reading my history book and came across a section about Jacob Riis and how he would stage his photographs to make them more effective, especially since cameras back then had a slower shutter speed. (My history book is A People and A Nation, Sixth Edition, published by Houghton Mifflin Company; it can be found on page 532.)
This seems like very important information to not have included in this article; I do not, however, know much more than what my history book has said about him.
If someone knows about this, I think it would be a good contribution to this article. 68.92.246.151 (talk) 18:45, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Removal of text

I have removed

Perhaps far worse, his judgments about each ethnic group follow prevalent, ages-old stereotypes: for example, in the two chapters devoted to the section of New York called "Jewtown," the Jews are usurious, and willing to starve their children because they are enslaved by love of silver (indeed, the Jews' scrimping and saving is viewed as a vice, whereas in other chapters other ethnicities are criticized for their failure to save money). The immigrants for whom Riis reserves the least sympathy are the Chinese. In the chapter titled "Chinatown," Riis accepts, without examination, the belief that Chinese men entrap native-born white girls in "white slavery" through various devious methods, including opium addiction. He believes that the only solution to this problem is to allow the Chinese man to bring his wife from China so as to avoid entrapment of white girls in unsanctified living arrangements. Part of Riis's enmity toward the Chinese seems to stem from their supposed inscrutability, their refusing to allow themselves to be known (an observation perhaps enforced by the mysteriousness of their written language, at least to Riis) and, worse, their refusal to allow him into their homes to be photographed. Readers suspect that the Chinese men's resistance to Riis's photographic invasions is what damns them in Riis's eyes.

pending at least a sourced non-OR and NPOV version. This is a good article, you need sources and coherent prose. The above is a personal opinion/analysis and as such violates policy. EconomicsGuy (talk) 14:50, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

The last two sentences seem mere speculation and thus unsalvageable, but the earlier ones purport to be summaries, and more need toning down than specific chapter and page citations. "Far worse" and "without examination" for example may be true but aren't facts. Jim.henderson (talk) 15:07, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

Right but it's pretty much just more of the same. The remaining part of the section is fairly well sourced and I see no reason why we can't at least require the same citation standard here. I didn't mind the rest of the criticism section but this was added later, after the GA nom (judging from the article history), and I think we need to be careful not to ruin that. Some criticism sections have a tendency to become pile-ons and it would be a shame if that was allowed to happen here. EconomicsGuy (talk) 15:16, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

Darn it, it's more fun to argue against idiots than people who are paying attention. I was going to go on about the delight of reading about the mysteriously lascivious Chinaman and the stingy Jew (I'll dine with each of those ethnicities, though alas not those stereotypes, in Brooklyn Heights Tuesday evening). Anyway I followed the link to How the Other Half Lives which turns out to be the right place, if any, to pile on anything that ought to be piled on for topics like this. So, assuming I don't get too tired, I'll study both articles and see if something ought to be moved from this to that, and whether something ought to be lost in translation, since the summary prose that you didn't cut is also overexcited in parts. And wow, I also love Riis's chapter about the Color Line in New York, which isn't mentioned in either article. I mean, despite his confirmations of contemporary prejudices, the guy wasn't dead set against minorities in general. Many interesting things to do, if only I can provide the careful attention the job requires. Jim.henderson (talk) 01:03, 31 March 2008 (UTC)