Talk:Jacob De la Gardie

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[edit] Finnish are Finnish, regardless what languages they spoke/speak

In Finnish history books the name is commonly written as Jaakko De la Gardie, and there is nothing "chauvinistic" about that. The Finnish family relations of Jaakko De la Gardie are well established for instance through his Finnish grandmother Karin Hansdotter, the mistress of king John III. It is not, however, as certain at all whether or not Sofia Johansdotter (Gyllenhielm) really was the illegitimate daughter of king John III of Sweden, as is often claimed. As we all know, we can determine the mother, but the father is often hard to determine even in the modern times, not to mention the time of Jaakko De la Gardie.

During the Kalmar Union Sweden was for long ruled by the Danish King. Nearly all governing officials in Sweden were either Danes or Germans, more so than in Finland. Yet, the few Swedish officials of the period were - and still are -considered "Swedish", eventhough they were governed by the Danes. Similarly, those Finnish officials operating during the period of Sweden-Finland were naturally Finnish, if they were from Finland and of a Finnish descend, regardless what languages they spoke (often that part is hard to fully determine anyway).

Thus, your double standars are astounding, to say the least. You ought to concentrate in viewing history in much more neutral light. Furthermore, that all topled with your totally unnecessary name calling and bad language use lead one to view you as a nationalistic and very one-sided twister of historical facts.

Finnish Admirals and Field Marshals Horn and Fleming, for instance, famously saved the Swedish Empire - a.k.a. Sweden-Finland - from becoming a part of Denmark.

It should be also noted, that during the period of the autonomous Grand Duchy of Russia the Finnish officials were - and still are - considered Finnish, regardless where they served as generals and/or other officials, i.e. either in Finland or anywhere within the Russian Empire. For instance, in the inauguration ceremony of the last Russian tzar, three of the seven generals of the tzar's personal body guard unit were Finnish. In no history writing they are referred to as Russians.

Factual Approach - March 25, 2006

Discussion moved from User:Mikkalai/arkven:

Posthumously giving a person a Finnish name he never used is indeed anachronistic Finnish chauvinism. You seem to equal Finnish (language) with Finnish (nationality) which is not even true now, and certainly was not true for the aristocracy of that period. Do you have any evidence that Jacob De la Gardie used a Finnish form of his name? As for state officials such as generals, the point is that they are Swedish, regardless of which part of Sweden they came from, be it Finland, Västergötland, Småland or Hälsingland. Finland was not an independent country and did not have its own army or navy, hence no Finnish generals, admirals or privy councillors either. Neither the ethnic origin nor the part of Sweden somebody came from changes the fact that someone who was a general in the Swedish army can only be defined as a Swedish general.

You can't even compare Finland as part of Sweden before 1809 with Finland as part of the Russian empire 1809-1918, as the Grand Duchy of Finland had a relatively autonomous position within the Russian empire, while it earlier had been as much an integral part of Sweden as any other part of the country. You are trying to push the idea that Finland was somehow an equal part in a dual monarchy "Sweden-Finland", which in fact never existed. Had Sweden not lost Finland in 1809, it is possible that Finnish nationalism would eventually have forced the creation of such a dual monarchy, as happened with Hungary in relationship to Austria, but that is speculation. In real history that never happened.

"Neutrality" can not allow us to rewrite history according to our personal national perspectives or claim modern-day national identities for people who lived 300 or 400 years ago. u p p l a n d 15:23, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

You side-stepped the question. Isn't it a cute proof of your obvious and very visible double standards, when you chooce to overpass the long lasting period of Kalmar Union, when Sweden was run by Danish and German officials. We can see the few Swedish officials of the period called "Swedish" by the Swedes, even in modern times. Why is that.

In several occasions Sweden's independence and its highest congrete governance was in the hands of the Finnish officials during the the time of Sweden-Finland. In comparison, the Swedes never had such a power during the time of Kalmar Union. Let's face it. The Swedes were always Swedes, and the Finns were Finns, no matter what union they were a part of. By the way, Finland had a chance to be a duchy also during the periof of Sweden-Finland, whereas Sweden was never even close to being a duchy during Kalmar Union.

Furthermore, your comments here also present another type of serious misspresentation, which - along with your problematic behavior - can be easily proven. As a reason for your pointless name calling here, you offer the facts that you have apparently caught someone "pretending that everyone always spoke Finnish in Finland", and you've also caught someone "seemingly" "equaling Finnish (language) with Finnish (nationality)".

However, neither one of those claims of yours - in any form - appears to have been made by any of the authors listed below in the line of messages on this page. In contrary, as we know, a Finn - of course - can speak any language he wants, still being very much a patriotic Finn. Finnish students, for instance, are known to have been keen in speaking other languages, besides Finnish, throughout at least seven last centuries. Before Swedish language ever rose to the later importantance in the education of the Finns, the Latin and French languages - also other languages - were often the choice of Finnish students and nobility.

Futhermore, even in modern times some Finnish citizens do not speak Finnish at all, not much anyway, like for instance the current Formula One race driver Nico Rosberg. Sadly - but typically -, the Swedish media was calling his father, the Formula One racing World Champion Keijo Rosberg, "Swedish" a quarter century ago, because he happened to speak Swedish, on top of his perfect Finnish and other language skills. Mr. Rosberg, however, quickly convinced the world media, that he is not Swedish, but very much Finnish instead. When this type of ultra nationalistic Swedish faul play takes place even during our time of electronic media, how could we now convince you, Mr. Uppland, about the Finns of more distant past.

So, we ask you, who has suggested such things, which you accuse them of having suggested above. Certainly you ought to be able to offer us an exact quote of such a claim, or something even close to such a claim, including also the page, date and time for such an occurance. If you cannot come up with such proof, can we now begin calling you a lier, also a "chauvinist" which you are calling others based on foundless accusations.

I see no point in carrying on with this sort of chauvinistic language conversation with you, which you seem to be attempting to drag us on, after first making up these false accusations of yours.

However, since you ask, let it be noted, that Jaakko De la Gardie learned to speak in Finland, where he was brought up by his Finnish grandmother. Among his accomplishments, he marched his Finnish troops to Moscow. He also held his army of Finnish men in Novgorod for six long years, continuously (that particular army included also some foreign soldiers). What language you believe he spoke to his Finnish troops.

De la Gardie's Finnish men called him "Jaakko", as do in modern times the most notable Finnish historians of Scandinavian and Finnish history. Famously, during their six years' stay in Novgorod, De la Gardie's Finnish men began calling their leader Laiska-Jaakko, "Lazy Jaakko", due to the fact that he took that long to hold up Noggorod. They made up a poem to honor "Lazy Jaakko": "Lähti suvi, lähti talvi, vaan ei lähde Laiska-Jaakko" (in English: "Summer left, winter left, Lazy Jaakko - however - does not leave".

Factual Approach - April 1, 2006 - revisited April 4, 2006

End of moved discussion from User:Mikkalai/arkven

I didn't discuss the Kalmar Union, because it is a strawman argument on your part. I haven't discussed the Kalmar Union, nor have I denied that many of the important people in the Swedish administration were indeed Danish or German. Neither do any Swedish historians, as far as I know. In fact, this is a complete non-issue. I am not the one making this into an issue of nationality; you are, and you seems to be projecting your own nationalism on other people. As opposed to the time of the Kalmar Union, the 17th century is a time when there was already a strong, centralized Swedish state. Individuals serving that state were Swedish officials, regardless of nationality, ethnicity or language. Many of those were in fact not at all Swedish in some ethnic sense, but German, Baltic-German, Scottish, Dutch or something else. But that is not an issue. People who were privy councillors or generals were not Finnish privy councillors or generals, any more than they were Smålandian privy councillors or generals. They had these positions in relationship to the Crown - the Swedish crown. It has nothing to do with their own ethnicity or nationality. Field Marshal Robert Douglas (1611-1662) was a Scottish-born officer in the Swedish army, but that does not make him a "Scottish field marshal".

Let me repeat: I am not the one making this into an issue of nationality. You are, and you have been doing that all along. The early modern state was not a modern nation state. People who served the state served the Crown, not the nation in an ethnic, nationalist sense - that is a 19th century idea. You just cannot take modern national identitites or borders and project them back into the 17th century or even farther. I am sure there are cases where one may argue that someone was a "Finnish [something]" for the purposes of categorization, but it doesn't work with high state officials like Jacob De la Gardie. If you want to argue that he was Finnish in some more specific, ethnic sense, you really need to provide references to reputable historians discussing the issue of his ethnicity or nationality. I have not seen you doing that. u p p l a n d 06:27, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

De la Gardie was *not* Finnish. Case closed. --Ghirla ^-трёп- 06:40, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

De la Gardie was Finnish, although the Swedes - typically - even today attempt to present many known Finns as Swedish, and nothing but Swedish. Case closed !

It is really embarassing to be a Finn where this national-chauvinistic fellow countryman is making this silly noise...--217.112.242.181 13:14, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] His Finnishness is clear, because we know who the grandmother was

Jaakko (Jacob) De la Gardie's Finnishness is clear, because we know who the grandmother was. Besides, De la Gardie grew up in Finland.

Even today, we can always determine a child's mother. Determining the father is a bit more difficult task, even today ! Jaakko De la Gardie was very much Finnish, regardless of what empire Finland might have been a part of !

Sticking to truth 10:313, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

Here is an article in the Finnish genealogical journal Genos on the issue, showing that Karin Hansdotter was from Stockholm, daughter of Ingeborg Åkesdotter, an illegitimate daughter of the councillor Åke Hansson (Tott), and her husband Hans Klasson, whose identity is uncertain but who may possibly be identical to a clergyman Johannes Nicolai Kökemäster. Nothing indicates a Finnish origin. u p p l a n d 11:11, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

His birthname was Jakob Pontusson De la Gardie (English spelling "Jacob"), his father was french, his mother Swedish. He was born in Reval, Estonia and raised with his maternal grandmother in the Åbo castle in Turku, then the second biggest city of the Sweden. —MoRsΞ 13:21, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

Please do not make inferences from pre 19th century names. All names where "multilingual"; they were rendered according to the language of the text. This same rule still applies to royal names. Most 17th century names have biblical origin. They could be rendered in any language. The fact that the name of a 17th century person appears in Swedish form in a Swedish language documet is no proof of "Swedishnes". -- Petri Krohn 22:16, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

I think it is simply absurd to even try to define Jakob de la Gardie´s ethnicity using modern concepts of "Finnish" or "Swedish". Jakob served in the army of Sweden and most probably had Swedish as his first language (I do not know if he knew Finnish at all). He lived before any Finnish identity had really crystallized among the upper classes, and he must have considered himself as a Swedish nobleman. So it could be said that he was a Swede in the 17th century sense. Of course, anyone will realize that being a Swede in the 17th century was very different thing than being a Swede in the 21st century. Using modern concepts, many of the 17th century Swedes could be categorized as "Finland-Swedes", who are generally considered to represent the Finnish and not the Swedish ethnicity. However, in a pre-19th century context the concept of "Finland-Swede" is completely anachronistic and should not be used. That form of a sub-ethnic identity did not exist yet.--217.112.242.181 13:05, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] "how can a country led by a king be called an empire??"

I think that in English, a country led by a king can indeed be called as an empire. Like, the British Empire, ruled by a king or a queen. Kven User is apparently thinking here the word empire as an equivalent of the Finnish word keisarikunta, meaning roughly an "emperor-dom".--217.112.242.18113:10, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

British Empire was called an "Empire" because the ruler of the United Kingdom was also the Emperor of India, counting from Queen Victoria. "Swedish Empire" is strictly speaking an incorrect term. --Drieakko 08:16, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

Both terms are used retroactively. -- Petri Krohn 10:59, 5 November 2006 (UTC)