Talk:Jacob's Ladder (film)

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Contents 1 Hell or Hallucination? 2 Spoilers, Related Films. 3 Is 'The Ladder' BZ? 4 The Marriage of Heaven and Hell 5 Trivia section removed. 5.1 Trivia 6 Son or Not? 7 Influence of Mr. Arcularis by Conrad Aiken?

[edit] Hell or Hallucination?

As someone who's seen this movie many times in my life I (and many others) don't buy into the theory that the entire film is just a "hallucination" while he's dying. That's a total cop-out and not very interesting. The way I interpret the film is that he's literally IN purgatory and has been ever since he died in Vietnam because he wasn't ready to let go. Now, he's been in purgatory for 6 years but that doesn't mean time moves at the same rate there as it does on the physical plane. So, when he soldiers remark that he looks peaceful at the end of the film he truly has made his peace at that point but while only a few hours have passed for them 6 years have passed for him. The article needs to reflect this point of view as many fans of the movie have come to the same conclusion as I gave, yet the article only seems to support the view that the movie was his hallucination and since neither are explicitly stated in the film I only think it's fair both views are shown. Just go to IMDB and read the boards, you'll see the camps are totally divided on this issue but there's an equal number of people who subscribe to each interpretation. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.79.95.148 (talk) 00:37, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

It's a halucination, or at the very least halucination is part of what is going on. It may well have significantly more spiritual significance than "just" a halucination. These experiences do not happen after he is dead, but as he is dying. What appear to his as flashbacks to Vietnam are really when he regains consciousness. I don't think we can really say that six years have passed for him, we can't assume that he has actually experienced six years. It's like in dreams where time often "skips ahead" in big jumps.--RLent (talk) 19:04, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Spoilers, Related Films.

If you can make a connection between this film, The Sixth Sense, and the Others, then I think Donnie Darko is another one worth mentioning.

I haven't seen the film (yet), but the connection to The Sixth Sense and The Others is a potential spoiler in itself. Perhaps it should be moved to the spoiler section. Cnwb 00:45, 2 Dec 2004 (UTC)

It absolutley is a spoiler, and so is mentioning that it has a surprise ending. That should be said at the very end. "Watch out for the surprise" ending!" within the first paragraph, really. — Slike | Talk | 03:52, 27 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I've also removed referances to the other films, as giving away their surprise endings to someone who is only expecting spoilers for this movie isn't very nice. — Slike | Talk | 04:13, 27 Dec 2004 (UTC)

One of the biggest spoilers of all is in the opening paragraph, where it says that the plot is a variation of "Occurrence at Owl Creek Bridge." Moving the offending line. -Mance 11:59, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

In reply to the original poster, not all movie's that are related need to be mentioned, I believe we can all make some sort of connection between every horror film. --Neur0X 05:08, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Is 'The Ladder' BZ?

Template:Spoiler

I've moved this from my talk page, since it seems wrong not to have the discussion here where other people can contribute. To summarise: I don't think the film claims that 'The Ladder' is literally and specifically the same drug as BZ. If 'The Ladder' even exists in the film outside Singer's imagination, it's a fictional drug whose testing on Vietnam soldiers mirrors the claimed testing of BZ in real life. Therefore, I don't think the depiction of its effects can unambiguously be described as inaccurate - no one ever said the two drugs were the same. garik 14:59, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

The following was in response to my edits of 30 July 2006:

I'm sorry, but they do say, in the end of the movie, that 'The Ladder' was in fact BZ, and     
BZ is in fact 3-quinuclidinyl benzilate, so, im reverting some of your edits.
Quoted from the movie:
 It was reported that the hallucinogenic
 BZ was used in experiments on
 soldiers during the Vietnam war.
 The Pentagon denied the story.
Oh. and if the drug was entirely fictional they wouldn't have mentioned that in the end of the   
movie.
--Neur0X 
.talk 23:57, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

: But the quote you give does not state explicitly that 'The Ladder' (fictional) was in fact
BZ (real).  The 3-quinuclidinyl benzilate article also notes that "the film does not discuss 
BZ specifically".
It's arguable, I suppose, that the makers are implying that 'The Ladder' = BZ.  In which case, 
they're either ignorant of the effects of BZ or are deliberately misrepresenting them.  However, I 
see no strong reason to assume such a literal interpretation.  It seems much more reasonable to 
assume that the mention of BZ at the end of the film is to show that the idea of experimental 
drugs being tested on Vietnam soldiers was not entirely fictional, even if the specific drug   
in the film was.  
Besides, the fact they don't mention BZ by name anywhere else suggests to me that the ladder is 
not specifically BZ.  It's the actual testing of experimental drugs on soldiers that crosses the 
fact-fiction boundary, not the specific drug.
Unless you can find better evidence for 'The Ladder'=BZ, then I think 'inaccurate' is the wrong 
word for the Jacob's Ladder article. garik 00:54, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

I've made changes. Having watched the film yet again, I think we should make clear that the bulk of the film is not necessarily a result of any drug. Also, I've tried to make clear the ambiguity of the drug in the film. We don't even know if there was such a thing (though there probably was): he only finds out about it in what turns out to be a hallucination! This is especially important considering the significance of the name "The Ladder" to his predicament: he's effectively on a ladder between this world and the next. And I'm sorry, but as I've stated above, we do not know for sure that "The Ladder" is literally the same drug as BZ. garik 11:29, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

I'd have to agree that the mention of BZ was solely for dramatic effect — to bring it all together. There is no reasonable indication that the movie was supposed to be about BZ. However, I'd say that in the fictional world that this movie presents, we are probably supposed to assume that the character who relates the details of The Ladder to Jacob is the spirit of an actual dead scientist, or a helpful angel, or both, or some other entity that is otherwise relating actual information to him in an attempt to help him into heaven. The movie is less interesting if we are to believe that it's all just random hallucination. The tagline sort of tells us that this is a real battle for his soul and not drug-induced hallucination. --The Yar 03:45, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Yes, that's much what I thought - I was just being a bit cautious above! garik 09:11, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

This was added today:

* A scene in which was written but never included in the final cut where ash form the popular evil 
dead series visits jacob and tells him he defeated demons too and went back to when events happened 
like in jacobs ladder. Jacob then stares at him and yells 'you demons get out of my way' then walks 
off. Also when jacobs wife jezebel turns into the monster when she stares at him and he throws her 
there was a big fight scene then she was supposed to carry jacob in the pits of hell and yell jacobs 
took the ladder then the movie ended.

If it's to be included it needs to be rewritten rather more coherently. The first bit sounds very dubious in any case. garik 23:04, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

The drug BZ is the reason jacob and his unit attacked each other. The movie is actually jacob trying to work out in his mind why he died, so he can be at peace and let go of his life. Once he figures out that the drug was the cause he starts making his peace and lets go of the struggle to hold on to life. So the point of the statement at the end was to point out that the government really did use experimental drugs on soldiers, and that the premise of the movie was at least plausible because of this fact. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 12.152.67.72 (talk) 14:51, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] The Marriage of Heaven and Hell

Surely some mention should be made of the obvious inluence of Blake's work on this film, from his etching of the same name to the entire message of TMoHaH.

[edit] Trivia section removed.

I removed the trivia section from this article. Some of the grammar was tortured. I started to fix it, but then I realized most of the statements had virtually no relation to the topic of the article. Why are heavy metal bands and video games being mentioned in an article about a movie? Re-add the trivia (if you must) to their respective pages.

If the trivia section is put back in, please do the following:

• Correct the grammar.
• Provide sources for the statements. Absolutely no references were provided for any of the statements made.
• Provide a compelling reason to list every band that makes use of a three second sample from this movie.
• Provide a compelling reason to dedicate several paragraphs to a video game that was influenced by this movie. Alternatively, create a separate "Media influenced by Jacob's Ladder" category in the article.

If the trivia section must return, please provide sources! If you don't, then I'll either tag it with (fact) or delete it again. NinjaRobotPirate 16:36, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

Trivia section re-removed, it follows below for anyone who wants to try to re-integrate some of it into this or other articles:

[edit] Trivia

• It is suggested that Louis may actually be Jacob's guardian angel. His name resembles the name of Lus (or Bethel), the place where God placed the stairway to heaven in the biblical story of Jacob.
• Screenwriter Bruce Joel Rubin initially wanted the demonic and angelic symbolism to be more representative of popular imagery - devils with pitchforks and angels with feathered wings. However, Adrian Lyne decided it would be far more interesting and frightening with more vague and menacing demonic figures.
• Several scenes that were filmed did not make the final cut of the film. Some of these are included in the DVD special edition. (Two of them being of Jacob taking an antidote for "The Ladder" and the other resulting deleted scene is of a hallucination in the subway. A third one is of Jezebel showing what she truly is to Jacob.)
• When the screenplay was published in book form, Rubin and Lyne had not yet decided on a way to end the film. Each had a different vision of the final denouement, and the original filmed ending is the one included in the published screenplay. A vast portion of the screenplay is not included in the final cut of the film.
• A quote from Meister Eckhart was paraphrased in the denoument of the film: "Eckhart saw Hell too. He said: 'The only thing that burns in Hell is the part of you that won't let go of life, your memories, your attachments. They burn them all away. But they're not punishing you, he said. They're freeing your soul. So, if you're frightened of dying and... and you're holding on, you'll see devils tearing your life away. But if you've made your peace, then the devils are really angels, freeing you from the earth.'"
• There are no optical visual effects at all.
• Jacob Singer never appears on-screen in any hallucinations -- all of them are from Jacob's point of view.
• Scene in bathroom, in which Jacob screams "Stop it! You're killing me!" is sampled in song "Next In Line" by Seattle Progressive metal band Nevermore.
• The "Vietnam" scenes were actually filmed in Puerto Rico.
• The line "If you're frightened of dying, and you're holding on..." is used as the final words of the non-vocal version of the VNV Nation song "Forsaken".
• The album Psyence Fiction by the band UNKLE features the track "Rabbit in Your Headlights" (co-written by Radiohead's Thom Yorke), which also samples the aforementioned line. The same quote is used in the songs "Leave The Light On" by Lagwagon and "Nostalgic For Guillotines" by Boy Sets Fire. The movie is also the basis of Iron Maiden's song "The Legacy" where the song intro is a three minute acoustic 'lullaby' which describes what is obviously a similar situation to the opening scene of Jacob's Ladder.
• The movie is referenced in the 2002–2003 revival of The Twilight Zone in the episode, "Night Route". The episode has other similarities to the movie as well.
• For approximately 30 seconds, a boom microphone is visible on screen. This is a technical goof.
• The creative staff of the Silent Hill video game series are big fans of Jacob's Ladder, and influences from and references to the film can be seen throughout games.^{[citation needed]}
• Lewis Black of the Daily Show has a very small speaking role in the film. He plays the doctor that examines Jacob after he has his ice bath. He has only one line: "You're a lucky man Jake, you must have friends in high places."
• Kyle Gass, one half of the duo Tenacious D, plays one of Jacobs neighbors in the ice bath scene.
• This movie was number 21 on the cable channel Bravo's list of the "100 Scariest Movie Moments".

Lexicon (talk) 22:13, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

I have again removed the trivia section. First, it's a huge section of useless crap. Second, the whole idea of trivia is that it's too trivial to be important enough to insert into the main article, so the vast majority of it never will be. And finally, it's all unreferenced, and has never been referenced, so it now must go. If you can a) find a reference for a piece of trivia, and b) find a place for it in the article, feel free to re-insert that piece of trivia. Lexicon (talk) 15:24, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Son or Not?

The article assumes that he has a real son. I am not convinved that this is estalished ever in the flick. The entire movie, save Vietnam, could all be in his mind... Correct me, someone. 67.87.92.56 01:54, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

No clue, haven't seen the movie in many years. However, a unilateral wholesale change of the article that removes useful wikilinks in the process probably isn't helpful at this point. What we need is to quote reviews and such that discuss the plot, instead of determining it ourselves, which would be original research. Lexicon (talk) 14:34, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

This seems to me rather a pedantic point in any case. I say leave the article as it is. garik 17:43, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

Sorry everyone; I have no interest in trying to change the article. I was just asking a question about the status of one of the charactors. 67.87.92.56 04:31, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

The son is real, it is mentioned by jezebel that gabe was the kid that died before he went to veitnam, so the sons spirit was actually there to greet him and guide him to the light(heaven). The life with jezebel is just him trying to hold on to his life by conjuring up relations with people he knew from the past; hallucinating a life after Nam, and he mentions to his wife after waking up at the house with his family, that he had a dream where he was with jezzy from the post office. So jezebel was just his imagination. All this is somewhat explained in the new version dvd with a few deleted scenes that shed light on the movie. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 12.152.67.72 (talk) 14:44, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Influence of Mr. Arcularis by Conrad Aiken?

I love the movie. In high school, we read a short story by Conrad Aiken entitled "Mr. Arcularis" which is *very* similar. I always assumed Jacob's Ladder was that story transported into Vietnam, much as Apocalypse Now is Heart of Darkness transported to Vietnam. But I've never been able to find evidence to this effect. Does anyone know more on this possible connection? And do check out the short story, it's good. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 206.248.129.71 (talk) 20:44, 27 April 2008 (UTC)