Talk:Jacksonville, Florida

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Good article Jacksonville, Florida was one of the good articles, but it has been removed from the list. There are suggestions below for improving the article to meet the good article criteria. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake.
To-do list for Jacksonville, Florida: edit · history · watch · refresh
  • Find and place more attractive pictures for each section (see Atlanta, Dallas, etc.). The beauty of the city may not be showcased as much as it could be. The Jacksonville area has beautiful beaches; it'd be nice to have a nice picture of the area's beaches- especially Jacksonville Beach.
  • Find correct estimates of Metropolitian(MSA) area. AS of 2004 the Census has listed the MSA area as 1.3 Million, not 1.6 Million. (Census)
  • Instead of the The Florida Times-Union logo, perhaps a picture of a front page issue would be better, preferably bigger than the small logo. I don't know if this would be a copyright issue but it would sure look better.
  • Find a good picture to put in the History section, clean the section up a bit more too.
  • Put information about Regency Reality Group they are a imporant part of the city. Developing many area such a Regency Square Mall that were previously were just sand.
  • Narrowing racial prejudice to the South is an error. The entire nation practiced slavery, and racial prejudice has never been a Southern exclusive, not even today.

When "historians" make a sweeping statement such as the one made in this entry, they are creating a misimpression.

Contents

[edit] Segregation and racial issues

There is much more the the history of Jacksonville that Racial Segregation. As an example the French Hugueonots under the leadership of Charles Ribualt established Fort Caroline which was later destroyed by the Spanish in St Augustine. Jacksonville has been a major player throughout the history of the state of Florida. Having one short paragraph about 2 high school names and therby implying that it is a hotbed of racism is not only untrue but irresponsible. I grew up in New Jersey and find that the racism is much more prevelant in NJ than in Jacksonville. No it is not perfact but Jacksonville and its citizens have made great strides in race relations. As time goes on there will be even greater strides made. There are many cities/counties throught the former Confederacy that have buildings, schools, etc named for Lee and Forrest. ( Not to mention the numerous town and county names for Lee, Forrest and other Confederate Generals.) It is not unique to Jacksonville, FL. In fact there is a Robert E Lee Park near Baltimore and a Confederate monument in Baltimore as well.

I do not understand why people think that everything about Confedrate generals is "racist." i understand why that might make some people upset, but this is NOT NPOV. Paul3144 16:01, 16 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Naming a high school after the founder of a racist terror organization is noteworthy, almost as worthy as a high school named for Adolf Hitler or Osama bin Laden. Just because Forrest was a a general officer in a rebellion does not give him a free pass to start an illegal terrorist organization and have the world ignore it, nor does Hitler's heroism in World War I give him a free pass to have the world ignore his genocide.
However, I would not object to the removal of the references to "Robert E. Lee" High School and "Confederate Park" if you strongly feel that it would improve the neutrality of the article.
Jacksonville continues to have very strained race relations. The first serious black candidate for mayor, Nat Glover, had his campaign headquarters vandalized [1] with the words "NO NIGGER MAYOR" on May 2, 2003. Matt Carlucci, a white Republican defeated in the open primary, had his business vandalized the same evening with "NIGGER LOVER" probably because he endorsed Glover.
If you wish to go back further in time, we can talk about the "Ax Handle Saturday" of August 27, 1960. Local racist white males (including some Ku Klux Klan members) gathered in Hemming Park with baseball bats and ax handles. These white men unleashed a reign of violence and terror on civil rights demonstrators who were conducting a sit-ins. The police did nothing. [2]
African-Americans in Jacksonville were denied healthcare (see Brewster Hospital), voting rights, and were treated as second class citizens at music halls, lavatories, golf courses, and water fountains.
To ignore this history, and not report it, would be a true violation of the NPOV policy. --Hcheney 17:51, 16 Feb 2004 (UTC)
Do other Southern cities have similar sections about segregation? I don't think it should be made such a prominent feature of the Jacksonville entry unless the same is true of Atlanta, Birmingham, Montogomery, etc. Jgalea84 23:34, Feb 16, 2004 (UTC)
Atlanta has at least a paragraph on the matter, noted segregationist Eugene T. "Bull" Connor of Birmingham doesn't even have a stub article, a good deal of the Birmingham & Montgomery segregation history is in the 16th Street Baptist Church bombing and American Civil Rights Movement articles. The mere fact there is inadequate information in other articles does not justify removing a relevant part of Jacksonville's history.
Maybe a civil rights movement WikiProject would be in order? --Hcheney 01:39, 17 Feb 2004 (UTC)
I did not mean to suggest that any of the info about Jacksonville currently in the entry re: segregation be removed; as far as I can tell, it is completely factual. I do however think that the way the information is portrayed is suggestive of the fact that Jacksonville is still a city which embraces racism and segregation, which is untrue and unfair to the vast majority of Jacksonville's residents who abhor such ideology. I get the feeling that rather than simply stating facts, you are subtly attempting to editorialize your feelings on race relations in the city. Granted, race relations are a very important subject for EVERY American city, and Jacksonville especially, but those facts can be described in such a way that recognizes the strives that north Florida and especially Jacksonville have achieved. I think your suggestion that some sort of civil rights project is in order is a good one and would be glad to contribute to it, and at any rate I plan on researching and fleshing out the colonial and territorial history of Jacksonville, which is shamefully lacking at this juncture, as my schedule allows.Jgalea84 06:34, Feb 17, 2004 (UTC)
I agree. There needs to be some positives to balance the negatives I listed. I will try to find some objective material regarding improvements of race relations in Jacksonville. --Hcheney 20:35, 17 Feb 2004 (UTC)

In the case of Nathan Bedford Forrest the term is accurate and NPOV, he was the first Grand Wizard of the Klan and there is a local high school named after him. I do think the entire section on segregation is a little much, especially considering the lack of other historical information. I tried to rectify that but Jax has a lot of history that is still missing form this entry. -SheikYerBooty 16:54, Feb 16, 2004 (UTC)

I wasn't aware that Forrest High School's name was a source of controversy. I mean, I know who he was, but both of my sisters graduated from that school (classes of '87 and '88, respectively) and I think the controversy may be a bit overplayed. Isn't there a big black student population, as well? TheCustomOfLife 02:17, 18 Jun 2004 (UTC)

I'm not disputing the facts, just the fact that the segration subsection is overkill and casts Jacksonville in a negitive light. The information should be in the history section in cronological order with other historical information. I'll do that and remove the NPOV, and we can later put more information in the article. Paul3144 22:50, 17 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Should there not be a picture of Jacksonville, since its "natural beauty" is mentioned? Most cities of her size have an image in the article.

There was one but it was removed due to copyright infringement. Mike H 04:01, Mar 15, 2005 (UTC)
Good news, we now have one that works for us. HereToHelp 19:27, 22 October 2005 (UTC)
For some odd reason, someone keeps inserting a disproportionate amount of text dedicated to Jacksonville and racism. For some reason, Wikipedia keeps promoting a disproportionate amount of space on its webpage for Jacksonville be dedicated to racism. No city is perfect - and in an effort to promote objective, informative reporting, I am requesting that the unusually large amount of text dedicated to Jacksonville and racism be deleted in its entirety or at least to an extent that reflects the truth - which is that there is more to read about jacksonville in one page than racism. Jacksonville deserves better Wikipedia. Please fix this.
There is only one paragraph dedicated to the subject at this point. I don't keep adding it, you keep taking it out and I restore it. I think one paragraph about specific local events is okay. Articles for other important Southern cities, like Miami and Atlanta, have a similar amount of space on the subject, if not more. --Cúchullain t/c 03:40, 6 April 2006 (UTC)
one page for jacksonville, and an entire paragraph of the ONE page is dedicated to racism and jacksonville. something just isn't right with this picture.
Well, you're entitled to your opinion. I really can't say anything I haven't already said, except that there isn't just one page for Jacksonville, but several (History of Jacksonville, Florida, Great Fire of 1901, Mayport, etc.), and that if you printed out this article, it would actually run several pages, while the section you're referring to would remain at one paragraph.--Cúchullain t/c 05:39, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Hurricane

I don't know why someone moved the statement that the area has not been hit by a hurricane since 1964. "Impacted by" and "brushed by" doesn't cut it. The truth is that Jax has not been hit by a hurricane since 1964. Mike H 22:30, Apr 28, 2005 (UTC)

Well, there was Hurricane Floyd in '99. That destroyed the pier, although that's technically in Jacksonville beach. I guess what you mean is that there's been no landfall aywhere near Jacksonville since '64, but we (I'm a Jacksonville native) have still felt our share. HereToHelp 13:36, 18 September 2005 (UTC)
jax beach is jacksonville--andy 00:33, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Jax Natives

Question: Who the heck is Tyler James Andres (born 1991)? Seems to me like someone who's vandalizing and putting himself in the Famous Jax Natives section. I Googled and can't find anything on this person (who is age 14). I tried to erase him from the list but he (or whoever) put him back up. Can we get some clarity on this? Thank you. User:kevinsnow 08:49, Jul 15 2005

I searched the document for that name--copied and pasted--and it didn't show up. Problem solved, I guess. HereToHelp 19:24, 22 October 2005 (UTC)

What is the deal with the vandalism of the pages and references to Stephen Dare? Some of the stuff has been downright libelous and ridiculous. Dare's academic work is primarily known outside the circles of Jacksonville, although he is quite well known in the city itself. This shouldnt be grounds for vandalism.

[edit] Some points about Jacksonville

You are right.. if we are talking about hurricanes in Florida, it needs to be more than a 'brush' by.. If anything, a new article should be created that lists during what storms and what dates different cities experienced tropical storm or hurricane force winds. Casually naming off close calls of hurricanes in Florida would be comparable to naming off every 1.5 earthquake in California.. or how about every hard freeze in New England. If you want to list anything rare.. how about the last blizzard.

As for race relations.. sure in the past there were racial problems in Jacksonville and the South in general.. but go look at the article 'The Southern United States'

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._Southern_States

Race relations continue to mark a heavily contested issue in the South; however, the most recent significant race riots in the USA were outside the South—the 1992 Los Angeles riots and the 2001 Cincinnati riots. Race relations in the US have improved since schools were desegregated in the 1960's (however, many districts in the region have successfully sued to end forced busing since 1990; while this has caused some de facto "re-segregation", on average most neighborhoods in the region are still more integrated than those of the Midwest and Northeast).

In fact, there has not been a race riot in the South since the 1960's, whereas there have been several in the North and the West of the USA (see race riot). Many people find this surprising given the desire of some Southerners to retain the Confederate flag as part of their cultural heritage."

I think the myth of the modern racist South is humorous. I live in a southern city with a population of 48% whites and 48% blacks with very little racial tension. 24.26.28.254 06:06, 29 July 2005 (UTC);

About the "no race riots since the 1960s," I have to say that's simply untrue. Pensacola, Florida had a race riot in 1975. Mike H (Talking is hot) 21:11, August 11, 2005 (UTC)

General Forrest did not found a terrorist group. When he founded the KKK it was much more a fraternal group. The Klan of Forrest was not the Klan we think of today. Beside there are much more current racial issues to deal with. Jacksonville still has several restricted private clubs. Both Timaquana Country Club and San Jose Country Club have no black members. The Florida Yacht Club was involved in a lawsuit with the State when they insisted on keeping black out.

Most people probably don't remember that Episcopal High School was founded as a white only school after the Brown v Board decision.

I've seen both sides of Jacksonville working in social services, and Jacksonville is quite an interesting microcosm of racial issues. The Times-Union recently printed an article with a survey in which 73% of blacks, vs. 43% of whites, said that Jacksonville has a racial problem. It's the second most desegregated city in the US, but also has a 23% black population. However, massive numbers of black and whites still live in poverty in essentially segregated ghettos. This is a defining issue in Jacksonville, and it's something that should be explored in the article. Otherwise, it must be about some other city - one named Jacksonville, but without the 800-lb gorilla. Khatores 06:33, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Clean Up

Just noticed that someone vandalized quite a few things.

looks like these two edits made most of the changes:

  1. (cur) (last) 19:55, 18 September 2005 82.117.194.66
  2. (cur) (last) 19:44, 18 September 2005 82.117.194.66

I'd fix them, but I have to leave and don't have time to look up how to revert to a previous version.

I'll try to remember to do it later

This has now been done by (another) anonomous user. If a sysop wants to look into it, maybe they could ban user "82.117.194.66". HereToHelp talk 22:34, 24 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Who deleted the picture?

It was a very old picture of downtown Jacksonville in the early 1900s. Being so old I do not think the copyright holder would be alive nor would the copyright likely still have legal hold. I am angry because I was never notified of this deletion. The picture was a good picture and if you want to go around fanatically deleting pictures then go f--k yourselves --Revolución (talk) 21:38, 25 September 2005 (UTC)

Go back in the edit history and retrive it if noone else has. HereToHelp 19:32, 22 October 2005 (UTC)
I went and did that and the URL is unrecognized. I guess it's gone for good...sorry.
It's okay. It wasn't a very clear picture anyway. But I appreciate that you checked. --Revolución (talk) 01:32, 25 October 2005 (UTC)
My site has a collection of old J-ville photos though the copywrite holders, if any, are mostly unknown. http://fpc.dos.state.fl.us/spottswood/sp00054.jpg --The Viper 01:58, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] References

Revolución and myself (HereToHelp (talk)) have really cleaned up this article lately, but the sources are rally bad, and perhaps the only thing keeping this from featured status. Anyone who really wants to help out can do so by adding credible sources. We'd all apreciate it. HereToHelp (talk) 13:44, 25 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Sports

[edit] SKATEBOARDING

Alright theres a bunch of skate teams in the 904 area especially in jacksonville one of the newest being skate team Infiniti just a bunch of poor kids who can skate it be great if you could help us out go to www.myspace.com/infiniti_usa_co or email us at infinitiusaco@yahoo.com thankyou for your support INFINITI SK8


—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 69.180.77.254 (talk) 16:44, 29 January 2007 (UTC).

[edit] Soccer

The article lists the Jacksonville Northsiders FC as a future club in the United Soccer League. Wikipedia lists the USL as being defunct since the mid-1980s. Will the Northsiders be an MLS team?

[edit] Football

With the exception of Green Bay (which looks at all of Wisconsin, including Milwaukee, as its market), Jacksonville is both the smallest market in the NFL and the smallest permanent home of a major league team (Oklahoma City, which is even smaller than Jacksonville, is serving as a temporary home for the New Orleans Hornets).

I'd think hockey fans would be offended by this. The statment about major league sports doesn't account for the NHL, as there are a number of NHL cities smaller than Jacksonville. I'm also fairly sure Jax is larger than Memphis, Tennessee, which got an NBA team a while back, and I would have thought Salt Lake City.

We are also larger than Buffalo and now New Orleans.--The Viper 02:33, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Image collections

I've removed this site from the 'external links' section, as it really borders on linkspam. However, the link could be useful on the talk page as a reference. Dr. Cash 17:50, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

  • Spottswood Collection 2,500 images of people and businesses in the Jacksonville area from 1916-1967. From the State Library & Archives of Florida.

[edit] History of the consolidated government

I added the previously unreported fact that the disaccredation of the public high school system in 1964 was a major impetus toward governmental reform; ie. consolidation. WBcoleman 20:47, 5 February 2006 (UTC)

The beginning of this article is vague. Jacksonville is the "argest city in the South outside of Texas." OK. Not largest area-wise, because it is the largest in the lower 48. Not the largest population-wise, either, because Atlanta is clearly larger. What should be done here? Deletion?

No, it's correct. While the metropolitan areas of various southern cities (Charlotte, North Carolina, Miami, Atlanta, etc.) are larger than Jacksonville, Jacksonville has the largest city population. --Cúchullain t / c 22:19, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] External links

JaxForum.com is not considered to be worthy of an external link, but one of the two existing links is to a similar site (forum) but which has zero activity? I will go ahead and remove the other link in that case?

Done. Thanks for the alert. -- Donald Albury(Talk) 22:52, 18 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] The Brick City

Many members of local unions do refer to jacksonville as the brick city and we dont need some pompous ass deleting that comment. If he does it again im reporting Cuchullain to the wikipedia people because we dont have to take this. —Preceding unsigned comment added by KatoABJV (talk • contribs)

You'll have no cause to report Cuchullain; he's not in violation of policy. See WP:3RR. Also, I've never heard it referred to as "The Brick City." dcandeto 01:02, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

Alright i guess your right but that doesnt change the fact that its true regardless of what you've heard and it shouldnt just be deleted out of spite. —Preceding unsigned comment added by KatoABJV (talk • contribs)

Do you have any references to cite for the Brick city nickname? Please note that they will have to meet the requirements of Wikipedia:Verifiability. -- Donald Albury(Talk) 01:29, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
I think it's worth mentioning that KatoABJV has added similar unsourced edits to Pittsford (town) and Pyongyang. dcandeto 02:43, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
I just removed those as well, thanks for pointing it out.--Cúchullain t/c 03:05, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
You people think you can push around the working man, we dont have to take this. You think your better than me because I have to work for a living? Theres not any web pages that say so but i know lots of people from JAX who call it the brick city. So why do you keep deleting it? How do you know that nobody calls it that just because you never heard that? You must think this is a game for some reason but i will not be picked on here. What do you have a problem with union people?—Preceding unsigned comment added by KatoABJV (talk • contribs)
Enough of that. Nobody here is engaging in class warfare. A quick Google shows that Ocala is called "Brick City," (Most of downtown Ocala was destroyed by fire on Thanksgiving Day in 1883. The town's commercial center was rebuilt in brick, thus the city became known as "The Brick City.") ... but I haven't seen anything about Jacksonville being called this. Is Ocala close to Jax? (I don't know much about Florida.) · Katefan0(scribble)/poll 14:51, 5 April 2006 (UTC)
Ocala has been called the Brick City (and is only a few hours from Jax), but I don't think KatoABJV's edits have anything to do with that, especially since he also claims Pittsford, New York and Pyongyang are also called "Brick City". He claimed the name comes from the Bricklayer's Union [1], which I assume he's in, but I doubt anyone uses the name "Brick City" besides him and his friends.--Cúchullain t/c 20:53, 5 April 2006 (UTC)
ooooooooo, you is hatin' on the workin' man!!!!! ;) Mike H. That's hot 20:57, 5 April 2006 (UTC)
So long as I got through to one person it was all worth it —Preceding unsigned comment added by KatoABJV (talk • contribs)
Cuchullain, they should change JAX's name from the Brick City to "Petty Greivance Town" —Preceding unsigned comment added by 151.203.221.237 (talk • contribs)
you said it, who's this guy think he is, DCandeto too I've heard it called that whos he to get all uppity about it —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.30.113.69 (talk • contribs)

Well, absent any other proof I don't see that it should be included. · Katefan0(scribble)/poll 02:45, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Population

Under the demographics section, the following statement is found: "As of the census of 2006, there were 735,617 people". However, that is information in accordance with the 2000 census. Have I interpreted this information wrong, or is it an incorrect statement? Also, I noticed this statement: "As of 2006, the city proper has an estimated population of 831,338". The July 1, 2005 estimate from the census was 782,623. The population seems to increase within the city proper at about 10,000 per year. I do not think this information is correct. Ajwebb 22:17, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

  • I removed the 2006 estimate and replaced it with the actual 2005 estimate from the Census Ajwebb 22:42, 22 June 2006 (UTC)


The following statement at the beginning of the article is inaccurate: "Jacksonville is the most populous city in the state of Florida and the thirteenth most populous city in the United States."
Miami Beach has 5.4 million people, and Tampa Bay has around 2.5. Jacksonville only has a little over 1 million. --Khatores 07:36, 5 July 2006 (UTC)
No. In 2004 Miami Beach had a population of 89,104. The Miami-Ft. Lauderdale-West Palm Beach MSA has a population of 5.4 million, but the largest city in the MSA, Miami, has a population of 379,724. Similarly, the Tampa-St. Petersburg-Clearwater MSA has a population of 2,589,637, but the largest city in the MSA, Tampa, has a population of 333,040. The City of Jacksonville has a population of 782,623, while the Jacksonville MSA has a population of 1.3 million. -- Donald Albury(Talk) 10:41, 5 July 2006 (UTC)
Ok, I stand corrected. I looked into this further and apparently that's the case. Consolidation has served us well.  :-) --Khatores 05:33, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

I see that someone has reinserted the figure for 2006. Does anyone have a citation for this figure knowing that the latest estimates was last year? --Moreau36 01:31, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

I live in Jacksonville, Florida and as you can tell there is clearly alot of people in this state.

[edit] Economy > Gizmondo

Gizmondo has folded and gone out of business. Apparently it was a front company for the Swedish mob.

[edit] Request for neighborhood expansion

I think someone should write a little subsection about Cedar Hills in the Westside, as it was one of the more upscale parts of the city in the 1950s and 1960s, but declined somewhat in recent decades. Mike H. I did "That's hot" first! 02:29, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Neighborhoods - Separate article

I propose that a new article be created, entitled "Neighborhoods of Jacksonville, Florida". Jacksonville is simply so geographically huge that this section, which is already quite large, despite being in its infancy, is simply going to overwhelm the casual reader looking for info on Jax. A brief synopis (the initial paragraph probably would be fine) should remain here. Any thoughts? Unschool 01:34, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

I'm not sure what level of detail you're envisioning, the section could probably be trimmed from its current state. "contains two churches and a school", etc, is not particularly encyclopedic. -- nae'blis (talk) 06:04, 11 July 2006 (UTC)
Good point. But the neighborhoods in Jacksonville remind me of the sections of Trantor in Asimov's Prelude to Foundation. While all cities of any size have different neighborhoods with different flavors, due to the sheer scope of Jacksonville's geography, many of its neighborhoods operate as if they are not even a part of Jacksonville. I have lived in many locales, but I have never seen such variety in one town anywhere. It is intrinsic to the history and culture of Jacksonville, yet including the information in the Jacksonville history article would similarly bog down that article. Hence, my suggestion for a separate article. But I think listing schools and churches is unnecessary, unless those are worthy of an article on their own (e.g., Jacksonville's First Baptist Church, which is I think one of the two largest churches in the US, or Stanton College Prep, reputedly the best public school in the US). What say you? Unschool 16:51, 11 July 2006 (UTC)
I'm not from Jacksonville, actually (my girlfriend is, and I just visited for the first time last weekend). I was struck by how large the city/metro is, but it's very similar to my own, Kansas City, Missouri (350 or so sq. mi in the City, more like 1000 sq. mi. in the Kansas City Metropolitan Area). And I don't see a reason to identify more than the most prominent neighborhoods (Westport, River Market, Northland, Waldo, etc), rather than trying to identify all of them. Our FOCUS assessments did that work for us, after all... -- nae'blis (talk) 16:56, 11 July 2006 (UTC)
I agree. The Neighborhoods section is extremely bloated at this point. Needs to be cleaned up and a seperate article created. kevinsnow 07:59, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Jacksonville's population

Worker31b has been adding (in my opinion, non-NPOV) text about how small Jacksonville's metropolitan is despite having the largest population of any city in Florida. [2] [3] Is there some consensus as to whether the relatively established reference to it as the largest city in Florida is more appropriate than just "a large city in Florida"? I do not believe there is a need for this change, and it reeks of attempting to minimize Jacksonville's importance. dcandeto 22:48, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

I just reverted his edits to the Miami article to remove his excessive 'boosterism'. For what it's worth, I was born and raised in Miami (many, many years ago), and I'm quite satisfied with noting that Jacksonville is the most populous city in Florida without going into elaborate gyrations trying to prove it really isn't. -- Donald Albury(Talk) 23:51, 11 July 2006 (UTC)
Here here. --Cúchullain t/c 00:23, 13 July 2006 (UTC)


Most people think of a city as including suburbs and it is confusing to hear that Jacksonville is the largest city. It should be worded something like Jacksonville is the largest city and the fourth largest metropolitan (or urban) area in the state of Florida. That makes it clear Jacksonville is largest by city limits. We all know that Jacksonville is only so big in population because it annexed almost an entire county. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 4.142.45.254 (talk) 08:03, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

New York City has a population of 8,000,000, and it has five counties composed into one cit-Brooklyn(Kings county), Queens, Manhattan(New York county), Staten Island(Richmond county), and the Bronx. If it was just Manhattan, New York City would only have 1.2 million people. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Bronxbombers93 (talk • contribs) 00:29, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Hotel Roosevelt fire

Can someone add the Hotel Roosevelt mention to the main article? I had it there but it didn't flow very well. It is notable in the grand scheme of things, as the fire claimed the most lives in one day in all of Jacksonville history. Mike H. I did "That's hot" first! 02:14, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Thunderstorm picture

A picture in the climate section has the caption "A summer afternoon thunderstorm over the Jacksonville skyline", yet the photo apparently shows a completely blue sky. I'm not a meteorologist, but I don't see any thunderstorms in that picture. The caption seems somewhat mistaken. --207.203.80.15 23:19, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

Actually, that's what a fair deal of the thunderstorms look like from a distance, a big blue mass. They darken as they intensify and that image is rather typical for your average summer storm. If you view the large version you can see the rain in the downtown area. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 12.111.139.130 (talk • contribs)

[edit] Libraries or Media?

Which section needs references? I took all of the material for the Public Library entry from our website - http://jpl.coj.net which is listed as an external link.

Pejorative.majeure 08:40, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

Been there, done that, but not any morw. If your source was the web link, cite it as a reference instead of as an external link (IMHO). -- Donald Albury 21:53, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Famous native individuals...

There's been a recent slew of professional and college level athletes added to this section; so much so that it looks quite messy and, frankly, biased. Perhaps most of these, if not all, can be moved over to Famous natives of Jacksonville, Florida and we can continue to list only the most well known ones on the Jacksonville article? Maria 20:52, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

I'm all for this, I wouldn't mind if we moved the list over there entirely.--Cúchullain t/c 20:54, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
In addition, I've been removing 'famous' persons whose notability has not yet been established in a Wikipedia article. -- Donald Albury 14:04, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Climate

Here's a great PDF file on the Climate of Jacksonville before 1907. Hurricanehink (talk) 18:25, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

There is a table showing average/high/low temperatures and precipitation - in fahrenheit and inches? Come on, no one (except the united states) uses these antiquated scales of measurement. Translation please!

Antiquated? María: (habla ~ cosas) 15:07, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] == Sports == cannot confirm soccer team

The United Soccer League website has no indication of a Jacksonville expansion team. I've replaced this reference with the new women's league team.Frondelet 15:03, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Photographs

I was wondering if we can please put some better images of Jacksonville into this article. Some of the current pictures (including the first image of downtown) are bland and uninteresting. There are so many better photographs of the Jacksonville area available- downtown, San Marco, the Beaches, etc. I think it would greatly improve not only the quality of the article, but its aesthetic value as well.

Contemporary images of Jacksonville need to be free, i.e., under an unrestricted license such as one of those listed at [4]. -- Donald Albury 13:56, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] GA Review

This article no longer meets the GA requirements because...

  • 1) It doesn't have any references
  • 2) The leade is a complete disaster, spending an entire paragraph putting forth the notion that Jacksonville is big city, when this is in reality a minor fact that might deserve a brief mention.

Therefore I am putting the article up for review at Good Article Review. Zeus1234 06:12, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Delisted from the Good Article List

Per consensus decision at WP:GA/R, this article has been removed from the Good Article list. An archive of this discussion can be found at: Wikipedia:Good article review/Archive 18. Please improve the article to meet all of the requirements at WP:WIAGA and renominate once it is up to standard. --Jayron32|talk|contribs 00:51, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] vandalism

This is a confession. recently i changed the words "public" to "pubic" in the library section. i was bored and within an hr the vandalism was caught by another user. i apologized to thast user and i feel the need to apologize to everyone else that didn't read the user's talk page. --HRH Crown Princess Abi of the United lands of Liberty 22:35, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Cowford and Cows

Can I say something here that will likely make me sound like an idiot? First of all, I have been hearing about the history of the name "Cowford" as Jacksonville's original name for decades, but I don't believe it.

Where I grew up, there were a number of towns that had the suffix "-ford" on their names. They were also named because (as this article says about Jacksonville), they were places that the river was easily crossed, or forded. But every one of these places that I knew as a boy were places where there were shallows in the river, sometimes with rapids, sometimes not. Yes, you could drive horses or cattles across these areas, with varying degrees of risk. At some fords the water might be a foot deep, at other fords maybe even four or as many as five feet deep (although this is the stuff of pioneer movies). The point is, a person (or a person riding on an animal) could walk across the river at such a point.

This stuff about Jacksonville being named "Cowford, because of its location at a narrow point in the river across which cattle were once driven" strikes me as utter nonsense. Indeed, the St. Johns does get very narrow at what is today Jacksonville. But that's not the point. That also happens to be the deepest part of the entire river's course, as well as the place with the strongest current. A friggin' elephant couldn't ford the St. John's anywhere near this place.

I don't dispute that Jacksonville was once known as Cowford. But I do believe that the language in our article—which I acknowledge is also found in many other sources—is incorrect. It's simply not logical. Is there anyone who knows something more about Jacksonville's history that could explain this better to me? Unschool 16:03, 23 June 2007 (UTC)

That is valid and commendable skepticism. But "Cowford" really was the name, and that really is the true origin of it - cattle crossed the river there at the narrowest point. But notice the text doesn't say they were actually forded across in the technical sense; they were taken across by other means (I think ferries were in operation; cows are also fair swimmers). I've heard several times that "Cowford" itself derives from the Indian name of the crossing which was Wacca Pilatka, meaning something along the lines of "place where cows cross" (this was the crossing itself, mind you, not the settlement). That should probably go in the article.--Cúchullain t/c 21:45, 23 June 2007 (UTC)

I guess "Cowford" was just easier to say than "Cowcrossing".--Cúchullain t/c 21:45, 23 June 2007 (UTC)

I agree with Cuchullain; it was originally named Cowford by its founder, Isaiah Hart, until the name was changed to honor Andrew Jackson in 1822. I also agree with the assertion that a ferry may have been used to transport the cows at some point, but all historical documents agree that it was originally located at the narrowest point of the St. Johns, and cows did cross, one way or another. María (críticame) 23:39, 23 June 2007 (UTC)

Well, I mean, I assumed that there was something to the name's origin; it just didn't fit in with the general notion of a ford. I suppose it was better than Cowville. Unschool 03:37, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Population estimate

I reverted the population estimate to 782,623, since that is the figure stated in the source linked directly after the number (U.S. Census Bureau estimate for 7/1/05). If someone wants to update the number and give a verifiable source for said number, please feel free. Dtcomposer 23:49, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Nicknames

I don't know how to explain this, but I'll try. The current situation in the infobox on the Jax nicknames is just absurd. Yes, I know information "challenged" must be cited, but there are limits, people. If I requested a citation on the Chicago nicknames, e.g. "Windy City", sure, there'd be citations, but it would be ridiculous, because, first of all, it's common knowledge, and secondly, those infoboxes are not built for footnotes!

I checked 8 other major cities in the US, and found not one of them having any documentation for their nicknames. And I don't care--I'll leave it to the denizens of those towns to keep their info boxes clean. Anyone who has lived in Jacksonville for ten years can identify the commonly used nicknames, and they don't include "the 904". The Urban Dictionary is NOT a valid source for this, period.

Look, this needs to be handled by a consensus of people who know. Sure, sure, I know what you're saying, How can we tell "who" knows? Just let up on this need for documentation--which looks stupid in the infobox--and let us locals work it out. The kids won't play forever, and us grownups can work it out. Otherwise I will just delete the whole nickname section. Unschool 05:56, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

The names left on there at present, "Jax", "J-ville", and "The River City", are heard daily on major Jacksonville media. They are part of the universal local lexicon, much as "First Coast" is (though that refers to a larger area than just Jax). If you want support, we can find tons of it and place it here on the talk page, but do not expect footnotes in those little infoboxes--it just looks terrible. Unschool 05:59, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
I've never heard "J-ville." It is not heard daily in local media and definitely needs a citation. dcandeto 14:50, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
Freakville is a common nickname for the city in the 20-40 set. Yes, it's not heard in the mainstream media, b/c the mainstream media in Jacksonville is known to be conservative. I've never heard the '904' used anywhere until it was placed on the page. Not in mainstream print, online or television/radio. If you're going to use a nickname used by one portion of the populace, you should use another. Bold New City of the South, Gateway to Florida, among others are past nicknames that aren't circulated but can still be found in many sources. I used different sources for the different nicks - ones I had actually heard of. Of course doing it at midnight without a print source handy limited my options to Googling and picking a most likely source (as that was requested by a previous editor). (I agree with the aesthetics comment, btw. It looked absurd but they were asked for and something you place on Wikipedia is supposed to be cited somewhere or so I'm led to believe.)Pejorative.majeure 14:08, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
I agree that only the common nicknames should be kept. I think names like "Jax" are so common that cites aren't needed, but it can't hurt.--Cúchullain t/c 08:04, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
In any written work for public consumption (that is, everything written except dissertations and masters theses, which are printed on plain paper and courier font and shoved in a section of stacks of the university library where none will ever again tread), aesthetics are a consideration. Not the only one, not even a major one, but nonetheless a consideration. A bunch of footnotes in the userbox can be and should be avoided, if for no other reason than the aesthetics of the article, IMMHO. Unschool 08:58, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
It is Wikipedia policy {Wikipedia:Verifiability#Burden of evidence) that any material that is challenged or likely to be challenged must have a reliable source cited, or it may be deleted. That requirement may not be suspended by a local consensus. While aesthetics are important, Wikipedia is not like most other publications. As anyone can edit Wikipedia, the only way to build Wikipedia's reputation for reliability is by insisting that reliable sources be provided for the material in it. Adding what you hear people say is using original research. If a nickname for a city is enduring and notable enough, you can find a published reliable source for it. By the way, the source I cited for Jax was not the Urban Dictionary, but a dictionary published by a major publishing house. Now, I have known Jax as a nickname for Jacksonville for a long time (it was in common use in Miami in the 1950s), but there are a lot of things that I 'know' that I haven't added to Wikipedia because I haven't found a published source for them. I see a lot of suspicious-sounding nicknames added to city (and other political entity) articles. I have no way of knowing whether those nicknames are legitimate unless a citation is provided. Remember, we are not writing for people who already know the subject, we are writing for people who have come to Wikipedia to learn about the subject. We don't allow experts in academic fields to add material to articles in their field of study without citations, even if all of the 'experts' agree on it, so why should we allow anyone to add nicknames without citations? -- Donald Albury 10:14, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
I have heard J-ville pretty often, and would have believed it so common that it doesn't need a citation, but I'll trust Dcandeto and Dalbury about it. If it's challenged, it should be cited or axed. "Freakville" and "The 904" are not in wide enough use that they should be included (I doubt the "conservative" local media has much of an impact or opinion on this). I think "Jax" is common enough (as in the "Magic City" for Birmingham, Alabama) that it doesn't even need a citation, but if it does, Dalbury's cite was fine.--Cúchullain t/c 07:15, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
The fact that one never hears "Freakville" in a telecast or FTU article (unless it's a direct quote of a 20/30-something who knows the term) and instead are always hearing Jax or the First Coast (which applies to more than Jax but is often misleadingly used as a reference to something occurring in Jacksonville, especially "tragedy on the First Coast" or other eye-grabbing leader stories) is due to the conservative atmosphere in this area. Similar to the fact that one rarely hears of urbanjacksonville.com or the alt community in Five Points unless something like a police raid happens. The media only reports on "deviant" non-mainstream culture when it can present a negative aspect of it. Non-stoned or sober people referring to the city as Freakville will rarely if ever be heard in Bailey Publishing materials, the FTU or the TV news, BUT if you read the Folio, you will see it in every issue, multiple times. Pejorative.majeure 17:38, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
Right... Anyway, I added Jax back in after it was removed. I think we all agree it belongs?--Cúchullain t/c 17:51, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] GA Review

GA review (see here for criteria)
  1. It is reasonably well written.
    a (prose): b (MoS):
  2. It is factually accurate and verifiable.
    a (references): b (citations to reliable sources): c (OR):
  3. It is broad in its coverage.
    a (major aspects): b (focused):
  4. It follows the neutral point of view policy.
    a (fair representation): b (all significant views):
  5. It is stable.
  6. It contains images, where possible, to illustrate the topic.
    a (tagged and captioned): b (lack of images does not in itself exclude GA): c (non-free images have fair use rationales):
  7. Overall:
    a Pass/Fail:


  • Lead; move some of the geography to the geography section, and replace with some economic and cultural information (see Atlanta and Miami)
  • Did anything happen between 1567 and 1821?
  • Clarify why "extension of the Florida East Coast Railway to south Florida" was detrimental (why was South Florida more desirable?)
  • There should be at least one reference per paragraph, especially on history whose subarticle is unreferenced as well
  • If Tagalog is 1%, perhaps mention should be made of the Philippine community
  • Fix the refs with {{cite web}} and {{cite news}}
  • Done, with more (book) refs to come for the history section. María (críticame) 14:06, 19 July 2007 (UTC)
  • Move the "neighbourhoods" and "economy" sections up, and eliminate or significantly shorten the lists of residents and businesses, as there are already subarticles
  • Expand the "economy" section with prose and information
  • You might want to move the skyline information into a section, or at least a separate paragraph which focuses on the architecture.

Its obvious that a lot of work was put into this entry, but there is still a lot to be done. I highly recommend looking at other GA cities as an example, especially Atlanta and Miami. Let me know once you've addressed these points, or if you have any questions or comments. Cheers, TewfikTalk 19:33, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

Thank you, Tewfik, this is an excellent assessment and your tips and pointers are quite helpful; I'll set to work on the history section soon; I agree that the early period needs to be expanded and better explained (with sources, of course). Although I believe the GA nomination was premature, maybe this will push us to speedily improve matters. :) María (críticame) 20:57, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

I'm failing this for now, but as I said, it is nearly there. Do get back to me in a few weeks, and I'll be glad to promote it. As for the nicknames, I found some sources that may help ([5],[6],[7]). Good luck, TewfikTalk 05:22, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Area

This article notes that "...since 1968", Jacksonville has the largest area. What was the largest city before the trend to consolidate governments?

[edit] Government Information

Most city wikipedia pages have a brief government section. I know there was one for Jacksonville. What happened to it? Pejorative.majeure 18:50, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

It had been deleted by a vandal in June, I've restored it.--Cúchullain t/c 00:15, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Sports table

I think that the large table in the sports section should be removed. It is an eysore, full of redlinks because most of the teams mentioned therein would not pass WP:N were they to not be included in here. Those teams that are noteworthy are mentioned satisfactorily in the article. Unschool 00:11, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

Okay, I've looked at it again, and it doesn't have nearly as many redlinks as I had remembered. It's still an eyesore though, in my opinion. Anyone else have any thoughts on the subject? Can it be made smaller? Unschool 00:14, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Intro

I went ahead and moved the information about Jacksonville's population comparison with New York and Philadelphia to the Demographics section. The intro was just too cluttered with population statistics. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.91.28.34 (talk) 13:52, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

How ironic that I was the one who added the New York/Philadelphia comparison in the intro several months ago, and now I've been prohibited to remove it. I've created a monster. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.91.28.34 (talk) 21:03, 26 September 2007 (UTC)
Personally I think it's fine for the intro, if you disagree go ahead and move it down again.--Cúchullain t/c 21:53, 26 September 2007 (UTC)
I also like the Philly-NY comparison; it is a more colorful expression of what is otherwise a drab set of statistics. I won't fight its removal, but I do support keeping it in. Unschool 06:47, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] About the comment on the picture

Below the picture of one of the maps, we can find this comment: "A 1992 map of four of the bridges." However I can only see three bridges on the map. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 190.0.148.56 (talk) 15:50, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

If you look close, you will find four: Fuller Warren Bridge, Acosta Bridge, FEC Strauss Trunnion Bascule Bridge, and the Main Street Bridge. The FEC Strauss and the Acosta are so close it is hard to tell on a map. Jaxfl 15:57, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Sections, neighborhoods, and the city's website

Most of the way the section is right now is fine, I suppose. But a major problem is with the City's decision to extend "Northwest" Jax all the way to the St. Johns River, and to deny that there is any part of Northside south of the Trout River. Look, if you're in Panama, you're about as Northside as you can get. How about standing at the corner of Lem Turner and Edgewood? Is there anyone from Jax that would not recognize that as "Northside"? So I'm going to leave the NW entry alone, but will remove the parenthetical explanation of North Jacksonville, since it fails to include most of the persons who would say that they live on the Northside. Unschool (talk) 21:06, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Fair use rationale for Image:JaxSeal.gif

Image:JaxSeal.gif is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to ensure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images lacking such an explanation can be deleted one week after being tagged, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.

BetacommandBot (talk) 06:24, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Politics section

It appears to me that this section, which has nary a citation, is full of POV and OR. I'm just placing it here to remind myself to get back to it when I have time, but of course anyone else is welcome to do so. Unschool (talk) 18:02, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Politics

Jacksonville, like most of North & Central Florida and the panhandle, was historically populated by Democrats, who still outnumber Republicans. In the last half of the twentieth century, large numbers of Northern Republicans retired and moved to coastal communities in South Florida. For the most part, they were not politically active. Until John Delaney was elected in 1995, the last Republican mayor in Jacksonville was elected in 1887. Until Bob Martinez was elected in 1986, the last Republican governor in Florida was elected in 1874*. (Republican Claude Kirk, formerly a Democrat, was elected in 1966 when the liberals in South Florida refused to nominate incumbent Governor Haydon Burns as the Democratic candidate and split the party. Kirk was defeated for re-election and Democrats were subsequently elected for the next 20 years.) In the years after Ronald Reagan was elected president in 1981, thousands of voters switched to the Republican Party. Additionally, thousands of Republicans moved to sunny Florida and Jacksonville from northern states or relocated from south Florida to avoid overcrowding, high prices and crime. Republican Party organizers saw Florida as a tremendous opportunity in the early 1990’s. While the Democrats were complacent, the Republicans energized their members, increased fundraising efforts and motivated fellow Republicans to get out and vote. Three of Florida’s last four governors were Republicans. The last three mayors of Jacksonville have been Republican** (Ed Austin was elected as a Democrat, but changed parties in mid-term.) In 2008, the Democrats are still trying to catch up.