Talk:Jack Warner

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Jack Warner article.
Article policies
Featured article star Jack Warner is a featured article; it (or a previous version of it) has been identified as one of the best articles produced by the Wikipedia community. Even so, if you can update or improve it, please do.
Maintained The following user(s) are actively involved with this article and may be able to help with questions about verification and sources:
Twelsht
This in no way implies article ownership; all editors are encouraged to contribute.
This article was selected on the the Ohio portal as one of Wikipedia's best biographies related to Ohio.

Contents

[edit] Upgrading Jack Warner

This article has improved but still needs a "Personal life" section. This would be the appropriate place to discuss his marriages, infidelities, relationships with colleagues, etc. -- twelsht (talk) 05:26, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

The inclusion of material on Jack Warner's personal life (marriages, strained relationships with relatives, etc.) has improved this article. The piece would be even stronger if certain sections were expanded, including "Depression era"--an important period for the studio. Even a brief reference to Warner's near-fatal car accident (which occurred in the 1950s, I think) would help round out this article. -- twelsht (talk) 15:10, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
Your point is well taken. I've added a section on Warner's political views. Feel free to expand it. Cheers, -- twelsht (talk) 01:29, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Edits from Banned User HC and IPs

Warning Wikipedia's banning policy states that "Any edits made in defiance of a ban may be reverted to enforce the ban, regardless of the merits of the edits themselves. As the banned user is not authorized to make those edits, there is no need to discuss them prior to reversion."

1) HarveyCarter (talk · contribs) and all of his sockpuppets are EXPRESSLY banned for life.

2) Be on the look out for any edits from these IP addresses:

AOL NetRange: 92.8.0.0 - 92.225.255.255
AOL NetRange: 172.128.0.0 - 172.209.255.255
AOL NetRange: 195.93.0.0 - 195.93.255.255

[edit] 4u1e's comments

OK, this is just stuff that occurs to me as I go through:

Lead
  • 'His 45-year career exceeded that of any other studio head' At the time of his retirement, or of all time?
Y Done Comment: As of 1990, Warner had the longest career of any Hollywood studio head. I'll take steps to confirm the current status of this record.
  • 'develop the film industry's premier "talking picture"' Unclear what this means: does it mean to develop the technology for talking pictures, or to develop the best talking pictures? Or something else? Why is talking picture in full quotes? I would have thought it was a fairly familiar term (and I ain't that old!). Perhaps single quotes only, to indicate use of jargon, or just a wikilink if you think readers will not understand it?
Y Done Comment: I agree. This sentence needs to be more specific. The Warners secured the license for Bell Lab's Vitaphone technology, which enabled them to produce The Jazz Singer. Sam, who sensed the potential value of the technology, was largely responsible for the deal. The unnecessary quotes have been removed.
I think what's throwing me off is the use of 'premier' to mean 'first'. That's correct in French, but isn't 'premier' more normally used nowadays in English to mean 'premium' or 'high quality'? If you mean 'first' would it be less ambiguous to say so? 4u1e (talk) 17:04, 26 February 2008 (UTC)
  • Probably need to add something to the text to make it clear to a wider audience why being a Republican conflicts with supporting the New Deal. (i.e. something like 'Although he was a staunch Republican, he encouraged film projects that promoted the agenda of Democrat President Franklin D. Roosevelt's New Deal.')
Y Done Comment: Good point. I referred to Franklin Roosevelt and mentioned his party affiliation.
Formative years
  • I found it confusing that the first para of the main body of the article starts off referring to Warner's Brothers, not Warner himself. The various references to Warner siblings and their birthdates later on also become confusing. Could I suggest that the siblings are introduced in chronological order instead, and that the first para should start 'Jack Warner was born.....' or similar?
Y Done Comment: Excellent point! I restructured the opening paragraph of this section, which now opens with a reference to Jack Warner's birth in Canada.
  • Do we know why the Warners moved to Canada?
Y Done
  • steeltown. Really a single word?
Y Done Comment: I have seen it rendered as a single word, but I suspect this is not standard practice. To stay on the safe side, I rendered the term as two words.
  • ' forming a brief partnership with another aspiring "song-and-dance man"' I'm probably being hyper-sensitive here: is there any chance this could be (mis)understood to mean a personal relationship rather than a performing partnership?
Y Done This is a valid concern, given that the term "partnership" is frequently used to describe personal relationships. I've added the word "business," which should clarify the nature of the relationship.
Early film career
  • 'According to Jack Warner's obituary, he contributed $150 to the venture by pawning a horse' This is slightly ambiguous. Since the previous para refers to Sam Warner, this could mean that Sam contributed $150, not Jack. Suggest re-word to something like 'Jack Warner contributed $150 to the venture by pawning a horse, according to his obituary.'
Y Done Good point! The sentence has been revised.

I'll be back later. 4u1e (talk) 07:54, 23 February 2008 (UTC)

Let me know when 4u1e is done reviewing the article. I'd prefer to not have 2 people reviewing it at the same time - it's too confusing. Royalbroil 21:15, 23 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] 4u1e's comments (part II)

Back again:

Early film career
  • Is this section title misleading? 'Film career' implies, but does not explicitly say, 'acting career'. What's the usual industry term for someone who shows and promotes films?
Y Done Comment: I revised the section heading so it reads, "Screening and film distribution." Let me know if this is too vague.
Formation of Warner Bros.
  • There's an eight year gap here (1910 - 1918)! Is there nothing notable to say about the brothers' early production efforts? Were they successful? Why was WB not formed until 1918?
Y Done
  • Similarly, is there nothing to say about the period 1918 - 1925?
Y Done
  • Might be useful to have an explanation of what a head of production does, for those not familiar with the film industry.
Y Done
Depression era
  • 'era in which Warner would recruit the most New Dealish (often simultaneously the most left-wing) writers and social themes' Is this worded as original? Recruiting 'social themes' sounds odd, but if that's what the quote says, then obviously leave it as is.
Y Done Comment: There is no rule against truncating the quote, so I eliminated the reference to social themes.
Personal life
  • 'daughter of one of San Francisco's most established Jewish families' Longest established? Most notable? Doesn't sound quite right.
Y Done Comment: Warner's biographer described Irma Solomon's clan as one of San Francisco's "pioneer" Jewish families. Perhaps this is the most appropriate word choice.
  • '1947 Alfa Romeo roadster' Do we need to know the year? Cars in Europe are not now usually known by model year, and probably weren't then, so the distinction may be meaningless in reality. On the other hand, it is what an American audience would expect to see.
Y Done
  • I've removed refs to 'Warner Sr.', on the grounds that he is elsewhere referred to only as Warner, and the context with him and Jack Jr should be clear enough as is. It would be nice to tidy up the references to Ann Page/Warner as well, it is specified three times that she was Warner's wife, and twice that she was his second wife. Can you think of a way to reduce this apparent repetition? (I couldn't off the top of my head! :))
  • 'Jackie Park, who bore a "startling" resemblance to Warner's wife' First or second?
Y Done
Political views
  • 'soft-pedaling idealogical differences with those who held leftist political views' I'm sure it's my ignorance, but I'm not quite sure what soft-pedalling (sic, for me) means in the context. Is there a less jargon-y way of putting it?
Y Done Comment: "Overlooking" is more direct.
Later years
  • 'reedited' Should this be 're-edited'?
Y Done
  • First part of first paragraph covers same ground as last para of 'The Sixties'. Can the overlap be reduced or removed?
Y Done Comment: Very good point! I integrated material on Warner's late 1960s career into the section titled "The Sixties."
  • The middle part of this para feels like it belongs earlier on in the article. Up to 'The Sixties' we were covering Warner's career in chronological order. Then we went to two sections focussing on specific topics (Personal Life and Politics), so it feels odd to jump back to the latter part of his career. Can the first two paras of this section be merged into 'The Sixties', which will then have to be re-named? The remaining para could possibly be moved into personal life to avoid having a one para section.
Y Done Comment: The material in question actually belonged in the section on the 1960s. The material in the section titled "Later years" deals with the 1970s. Thanks for catching this!

Hope that's helpful. This is a good article. It mostly pulls off the trick of focusing on Warner himself and not the company, although there are a couple of places where that could be tightened up. I've enjoyed reading it. I'll check back here to see if you've got any questions about my comments. Cheers. 4u1e (talk) 18:22, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

Your comments were clear, constructive, and very helpful. I still need to work on the repeated references to Ann Warner as Warner's second wife, of course. I'll give the piece a thorough review tomorrow. Thanks, again, for your detailed feedback, which improved this article considerably. Cheers, -- twelsht (talk) 03:05, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Royalbroil's comments

[edit] Overview

GA Criteria 1. Well written.

  • Yes

2. Factually accurate and verified:

  • Yes, minor changes outlined below

3. Broad coverage

  • Yes, his whole life is covered

4/5. Neutral/stable

  • Yes

6. Images

  • I don't think that the Youngstown image belongs in the article: it's not directly related to Warner. The same thing for the German American Bund parade image.
Y Done

The Hollywood Studios image should get moved to Commons since it's free use. That image certainly belongs in this article. Portrait has fair use criteria. Thoughts for possible free use images: 1) a picture of his family like his wife(s) or young Jack, Jr. He married before 1923, so a wedding picture? 2) His star on the Hollywood Walk of Fame. Don't worry if you can't find any of my suggestions.

This image of his house might be interesting enough to including in this article. If so, you would need to ask the photographer to consider licensing it Creative Commons. They are a Wikipedia fan, so your odds are better thant the normal 50%. Royalbroil 19:19, 29 February 2008 (UTC)
Y Done Comment: The photo is described as "public" on the Web site. I used a free use license that requires attribution but will contact the author about moving it to Commons -- twelsht (talk) 17:27, 1 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Copyedit

  • "His 45-year career exceeded that of any other studio head". In what way did his career exceed others? Length? Sales? Is this NPOV?
Y Done Comment: Good catch! I revised this statement so that it clearly refers to the length of his tenure, rather than the effectiveness of his leadership.
  • Cite "to procure the technology for the film industry's first talking picture" - most firsts should be cited
Y Done Comment: I totally agree and added an inline citation.
  • "a bestseller that condemned" I assume it's a book. How about "a bestselling book that condemned"?
Y Done Comment: Good observation.
  • Some words might be written too high for most readers (I have 2 college degrees). I had to look it up 2 of these words. "presaged" - How about "was a precursor" or "was an omen"? Also, "prescient" "enmity" "ingratitude".
Y Done Comment: I altered some of the language and will continue to work on this.
  • Consider moving the first paragraph in the "Personal life" section to the lead. I don't like how there's a summary of his life right before it tells you the details.
Y Done Comment: Thanks! This seems to work better. I was also concerned that the "Personal life" section was a bit too long.

Excellent job finding relevent and interesting quotes an integrating them into the text! It's a well-written article that looks ready for GA and beyond. Royalbroil 14:55, 28 February 2008 (UTC)