Talk:Jack Brabham

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Your biog on Jack Brabham says his first Grand Prix win was at Monaco in 1955. I believe Stirling Moss won that race. Jack Brabham won at Monaco in 1959.

I believe you are right - see Jach Brabham's wins and Stirling Moss' wins. -Fred Bradstadt 07:42, August 11, 2005 (UTC)

Contents

[edit] Rating

Class is start - what's here is OK (although I think there may be a couple of errors) but it is really very brief and anyone with more than a very casual interest would have to look elsewhere.

Importance is mid - In the context of WP Australia at least, would be higher in context of WP:f1 --4u1e 22:19, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Teams and Constructors

AAFL - thanks for your hard work in adding results to this article.

I hope you don't mind, but I've changed the team for 1962 from Lotus to Brabham. Jack did not drive for Lotus, although the Brabham Racing Organisation bought a Lotus car to use in early 1962 while Motor Racing Developments built the first Brabham car. See the Brabham article for more details! Maserati is wrong as well - that was a privateer car that Jack entered himself. However, I'm not quite sure to put there under 'team'. See Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Formula_One for more on this topic. --4u1e 18:21, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] www.jack-brabham-engines.com

This address is continually added to and removed from the External Links section. If there's a valid reason for not wanting the link there, perhaps we can add a wikicomment to save everyone some time and effort. -- DH85868993 01:03, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

I guess it's removed because it's an anon who does it, and it does look a bit spammy. However, on this occasion, assuming the company's connection to Sir Jack is valid, it seems like a valid link. I'll put it back. 4u1e 15:31, 3 June 2007 (UTC)
Interestingly, the last person to remove it has been editing exclusively on the 6-stroke technology worked on by JBE. 4u1e 06:47, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

Malbeare has removed the link again, categorising it as spam. WP:EL seems to be the relevant guidance. On the one hand, it says that "Articles about any organization, person, web site, or other entity should link to the official site if any". On the other, it also says to avoid "Links to sites with objectionable amounts of advertising" and "Sites that are only indirectly related to the article's subject". The site does contain some content on Sir Jack - and I found a useful-looking doc there on the Brabham BT19, so it's been helpful already :). On the other hand, there is a fair bit of merchandising, although it is at least relevant to the topic. I'd say we could argue it either way. Any other views? 4u1e 19:18, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

It's linked to from Sir Jack's official site anyway, which we also have a link to (uncontroversially, I trust!), so on that basis I'm happy to leave it out. If Malbeare is reading - looks like we're in agreement, but it's better to discuss things on the talk page than for the article to be edited back and forth. Cheers. 4u1e 19:21, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

Jack Brabham Engines is an Australian company in which Sir Jack is a director. Please note that the materials posted under "Biography" are directly provided personally by him including photographs; they are not copied or taken from other sites, they have come from his personal collection. The merchandise items available have been selected by Sir Jack as well. The US site www.jackbrabham.com is organised by Mr Gurney who provides promotional activities for Sir Jack outside Australia, as is advertised there. Posted 21 June 2007

Links normally to be avoided Except for a link to a page that is the subject of the article or an official page of the article subject—and not prohibited by restrictions on linking—one should avoid:

Any site that does not provide a unique resource beyond what the article would contain if it became a Featured article. Any site that misleads the reader by use of factually inaccurate material or unverifiable research. See Reliable sources for explanations of the terms "factually inaccurate material" or "unverifiable research". Links mainly intended to promote a website. Links to sites that primarily exist to sell products or services. For example, instead of linking to a commercial bookstore site, use the "ISBN" linking format, giving readers an opportunity to search a wide variety of free and non-free book sources. Links to sites with objectionable amounts of advertising. Links to sites that require payment or registration to view the relevant content. Sites that are inaccessible to a substantial number of users, such as sites that only work with a specific browser. Direct links to documents that require external applications (such as Flash or Java) to view the relevant content, unless the article is about such rich media. If you do link to such material make a note of what application is required. Links to search engine and aggregated results pages. Links to social networking sites (such as MySpace), discussion forums or USENET. Links to blogs and personal web pages, except those written by a recognized authority. Links to open wikis, except those with a substantial history of stability and a substantial number of editors. Sites that are only indirectly related to the article's subject: the link should be directly related to the subject of the article. A general site that has information about a variety of subjects should usually not be linked to from an article on a more specific subject. Similarly, a website on a specific subject should usually not be linked from an article about a general subject. If a section of a general website is devoted to the subject of the article, and meets the other criteria for linking, then that part of the site could be deep-linked.

[edit] Advertising and conflicts of interest Main articles: Wikipedia:Conflict of interest and Wikipedia:Spam Due to the rising profile of Wikipedia and the amount of extra traffic it can bring a site, there is a great temptation to use Wikipedia to advertise or promote sites. This includes both commercial and non-commercial sites. You should avoid linking to a website that you own, maintain or represent, even if the guidelines otherwise imply that it should be linked. If the link is to a relevant and informative site that should otherwise be included, please consider mentioning it on the talk page and let neutral and independent Wikipedia editors decide whether to add it. This is in line with the conflict of interest guidelines. Note that since Wikipedia uses nofollow tags, external links may not alter search engine rankings.

A few parties now appear to have a spambot capable of spamming wikis from several different wiki engines, analogous to the submitter scripts for guestbooks and blogs. If you see a bot inserting external links, please consider checking the other language wikis to see if the attack is widespread. If it is, please contact a sysop on the meta-wiki; they can put in a Wikimedia-wide text filter. Sysops will block unauthorized bots on sight. the inclusion of the link from the anonymous user is clearly spam and has a conflick of interest --Malbeare 14:36, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

Malbeare has quoted some relevant points there, particularly if the individual adding the link is connected to JBE - which I imagine is the case here. I think we've agreed above that it's as well to leave the site out - given that apart from anything else it can be reached from Sir Jack's own site, which is correctly linked from the article. The point I made above to Malbeare also applies to the anonymous adder of the link: It's better to reach an agreement here and not just keep editing back and forth. Cheers 4u1e 16:45, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

Jack Brabham is no longer a director of Jack Brabham Engines:

Australian Securities & Investments Commission Electronic Lodgement Document No. 1E3389759
Lodgement date/time: 04-07-2007 14:17:09
Reference Id:75312635
Trace No.:1001369
Form 484 Corporations Act 2001 Change to company details
Company details
Company name JACK BRABHAM ENGINES LIMITED
Australian Company Number (ACN) 108108425
Lodgement details
Who should ASIC contact if there is a query about this form?
Name BIMSON SMITH PARTNERS PTY LIMITED
ASIC registered agent number(if applicable) 1472
Signature This form must be signed by a current officeholder of the company.
I certify that the information in this form is true and complete
Name ALAN PATRICK CASEY
Capacity SEC
Signature
Date signed 20-06-2007
ASIC Form 484 Ref 7531263504/07/2007 Page1 of 2 DocId: 1E3389759 ACN :108 108 425
B1 Cease company officeholder Officer
This section shows the cessation of a company officeholder
Officeholder cessation
Details Role(s) Director
Cessation Date:20-06-2007
The name of the ceased officeholder is:
Given names JACK
Family name BRABHAM
Birth Details
Date of Birth 02-04-1926
City/town of Birth HURSTVILLE
State (if born in Australia) NSW
Country of Birth Australia
B2 Appoint company officeholder Officer
This section shows the appointment of a company officeholder
Officeholder Apointment
Details Role(s) Director
Appointment Date:20-06-2007
(details of new director removed for privacy reasons)
Form 484-Change to /07/2007 Page 2 of 2 DocId: 1E3389759 ACN :108 108 425

Malbeare 06:04, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

Would it be possible to make that readable rather than just copy & paste? --Falcadore 00:24, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
I've reformatted the text a little further (in addition to Malbeare's efforts of earlier today) and removed the details of the new director for privacy reasons. But I'm wondering:
  • whether other details should also be removed for privacy reasons, or
  • whether we need to retain the full text of the document here in the talkpage at all.
Please note that I'm not doubting the veracity of Malbeare's statement about Jack Brabham no longer being a director of Jack Brabham Engines, and I appreciate that he went to the effort of copy-and-pasting the text here as evidence. DH85868993 03:11, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

The document is a publicly available document from the australian ASIC ( australian securities and investment commission)http://www.search.asic.gov.au/gns001.html If you are a director of a PUBLIC company there is nothing private about it. Malbeare 21:33, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

Good point! I hadn't thought of that. DH85868993 00:55, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] www.jack-brabham-engines.com (2)

I refer to a letter written by Sir Jack Brabham OBE to WIKIPEDIA dated 30 June 2007 requesting the link: "Jack Brabham - Official Australian site" to be placed on the WIKI page for him. This link was inserted by Phil Sandifer of WIKI to link to www.jackbrabhamengines.com which is Sir Jack's Australian website where you will find up to date information about him, given by him. This link is being changed erroneously. Sir Jack has a site run by Donn Gurney in the USA who has in the past organised promotional events for him. However the materials provided at www.jackbrabhamengines.com are entirely provided by Sir Jack with his permission from his personal collection of photographs. We have now changed back to link to the Australian site in accordance with Sir Jack's wishes. While there are queries on various races and/or cars, if you only emailed us in Australia, we can source that information directly from Sir Jack.

With the greatest of respect to Sir Jack, whether or not he requests that the page be linked here is of no relevance as whether the information should be included in an encyclopedia. Concerns have been expressed about the inclusion of links to a commercial site (i.e. one whose purpose is in part to sell Brabham memorabilia) (See WP:LINK). It is normal to include links to an individual's personal website if such exists, so if jackbrabham.com is no longer Sir Jack's official site, and the JBE site is, could you tell us to whom the letter to Wikipedia was sent? Cheers. 4u1e 19:40, 28 October 2007 (UTC)
I have restored the other conversations you deleted. Please note that it is extremely bad wiki-manners to delete 'conversations by other users. In this context it could be taken as an attempt to hide views put forward by others. Could I suggest that it might be an idea to open a Wikipedia account, it would make continuing such conversations as this much easier. Cheers. 4u1e 19:43, 28 October 2007 (UTC)


Response 31 October 2007. Wikipedia correspondence, contact Phil Sandifer - Sir Jack has both an Australian official site as well as a site based in the USA, www.jackbrabham.com - however the information at www.jackbrabhamengines.com is up to date and contains recent photos of Sir Jack in Australia as well as photos/information released by him personally for publication on that site.

The earlier discussions on this page by "Malbeare" regarding Sir Jack, Jack Brabham Engines Limted, its directors have been submitted as evidence in a Federal Court of Australia action commenced recently. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 58.174.81.240 (talk) 21:32, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

I suspect that that is of no relevance here - all I can see above is a discussion over whether it is appropriate (by Wikipedia's in-house rules) to include a link to the JBE site in the article, and information reproduced here by Malbeare regarding Sir Jack's resignation from the board of directors of JBE. Not that I feel you're being threatening, but it might be useful to read WP:LEGAL. Cheers. 4u1e 17:22, 31 October 2007 (UTC)
It is true that the JBE site is his official site, and I changed the link to reflect that per an OTRS request. This should not be taken as a judgment that other links are inappropriate - merely that the JBE site is the one that can most accurately be called his official site. Phil Sandifer 17:33, 31 October 2007 (UTC)
Pardon my ignorance: OTRS? For the rest, do you feel that Sir Jack's stepping down from the board of directors would make any difference (my initial reaction would be not). Cheers. 4u1e 17:58, 31 October 2007 (UTC)
WP:OTRS. And my reaction would be that it does not make a difference - the JBE link should still be included.Again, that's not a judgment on other links - just that the JBE link should definitely be included. Phil Sandifer 19:13, 31 October 2007 (UTC)
Looks like we're in agreement then. As the American site seems also to be officially sanctioned, going by the above comments, I'll review it and if it offers different content include it as well. Could I make a gentle plea to clearly note the reasoning for reincluding such links in future, Phil? A note on this page from yourself, or even in your edit summary, given the existing discussions on this page, would have been helpful in resolving this. I realise that the talk page discussions were deleted at one point, by the anonymous editor (presumed JBE rep), and so the history of the discussion may not have been obvious. Many thanks for your help. Cheers. 4u1e 11:22, 1 November 2007 (UTC)
The content at www.jackbrabham.com, while obviously similar, is different enough that I judge it worth having both as they add to the content of the page. In terms of 'current events' and contemporary photos, they are likely to do so even if the page itself is ever brought up to FA standard. Cheers. 4u1e 11:36, 2 November 2007 (UTC)