Talk:Jōyō kanji

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[edit] Kanji wikified

I think it is or it will become common policy to wikify kanji. At the time being, there are no articles yet for most of them, for some, redirects exist to their meaning (which is probably misleading). Some articles on the actual kanji exist though, and very few of these can be instructive on what such articles can and should contain and what makes it worth to have them in wikipedia and not in wiktionary, e.g. ethymology, stroke order, etc. (see also: A). Ben talk contr 08:44, May 6, 2005 (UTC)

There's a problem with wikilinking kanji, though: the English Wikipedia only supports ISO Latin-1 in article titles, not Unicode, so they all end up with titles like Æœ´ and similar gibberish. If we're going to have kanji/han character articles, there needs to be some sort of standard for titles. The Manual of Style for Japan-related articles doesn't say anything about this yet. — Gwalla | Talk 19:22, 6 May 2005 (UTC)
Actually, it seems to me that Wiktionary is a more suitable place for articles on individual kanji. And, lo and behold, it does seem to have articles on them (and supports Unicode titles, so they appear properly). So we should probably be linking kanji to their articles on Wiktionary. — Gwalla | Talk 23:32, 6 May 2005 (UTC)


The Kyoiku kanji page links all the kanji to the wiktionary. Seems like a good system, and this page could borrow from that page when building the links to save time.

[edit] Readings

It's a common misconception that jouyou kanji is just a list of characters. It's not: it's a list of characters and their official readings. This page is therefore incomplete until the readings are added, including an indication of which are on and which are kun. The linked kanji in Wiktionary do not contain this information either; just a list of all readings, whether official or not. --Auximines 17:49, 17 September 2005 (UTC)

What you're saying is correct, but it's rather a big job to put this information into the page for two thousand or so characters. I'm not sure if Jim Breen's kanjidic contains information about joyo/non-joyo readings, so you would probably have to consult a recent kanji dictionary. I suppose on/kun readings could be indicated by italics or bold, or something like that, since katakana doesn't seem like a good idea. Anyway anyone who reads a kanji dictionary will know that you are right, and the article should conform to that. --DannyWilde 00:17, 18 September 2005 (UTC)
Yes it's a big job, but I'm sure the combined might of Wikipedeans worldwide is up to the task! I've added an external link to the offical list of Jouyou kanji and their readings. Most sources I've seen use uppercase for on readings and lowercase for kun. Question is, where to add these readings? On this page, or on the individual kanji pages in Wiktionary? --Auximines 11:17, 18 September 2005 (UTC)
I've added a few readings I could remember from the top of my head and checked back with EDICT. Its not much and I didn't go over the complete list, but it's a start. --MBarkhau 13:09, 27 August 2006 (UTC)
I tend to have a good bit of free time on my hands at work (see comment below). I can update the list (and hopefully accelerate my own learning) with the readings if I can get a list that's acceptable to all parties. If given this task, though, I'll most definitely be correcting the problems I listed below here as I come to them. 218.225.111.205 06:43, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Kanji 1419 ?

Under position 1419 there's no kanji, but a "NAME?" label. What's the missing kanji ? Taw 03:47, 24 November 2005 (UTC)

Comparing with the official lists, it seems that the missing kanji is 耐, with readings TAI or ta(eru), and meaning "resistant to something". [1]. I'll correct the list in the article. Taw 03:59, 24 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Tōyō to Jōyō changes

Does anyone have references for the Tōyō to Jōyō changes. I have a Tōyō list which contains 1863 characters. 1863 + 95 != 1945. How did Tōyō evolve prior to Jōyō?

Further, has anyone seen a textual version of the documents here [2] ?

[edit] Move to Wikisource

Since this article appears to be just a copy of a list that was published by another source (Japanese Ministry of Education), it looks to me like it would fit in better over at Wikisource. This article could remain as an article about the list, rather than being a verbatim copy of it. Bryan 07:18, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Please read s:WS:WWI. Wikisource does accept reference data.--BirgitteSB 19:24, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Question ref duplication

Two kanji; numbers 19 and 1473 appear to be the same, both meaning boat / ship. I think one of them must be wrong.Oharrez 09:46, 2 February 2007 (UTC)oharrez

This has been fixed as of today, though I don't know by whom. 218.225.111.205 00:53, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Problems with the list in present form

In updating the List of kanji by stroke count to something resembling usefulness, I found a lot of problems with the list as it is now. One or two have been mentioned already, but I'm mentioning them again here.

The Han stroke counts do not always correspond to the Japanese stroke counts: 偉 (12-stroke) is listed as an 11-stroke kanji.
傑 (13-stroke) is listed as a 12-stroke kanji.
僧 (13-stroke) is listed as a 14-stroke kanji.
児 (7-stroke) is listed between 8- and 10-stroke kanji.
卑 (9-stroke) is listed as an 8-stroke kanji.
卸 (9-stroke) is listed as an 8-stroke kanji.
叫 (6-stroke) is listed as a 5-stroke kanji. (typo?)
喝 (11-stroke) is listed as a 12-stroke kanji.
塔 (12-stroke) is listed as a 13-stroke kanji. (typo?)
塚 (12-stroke) is listed as a 13-stroke kanji.
墓 (13-stroke) is listed as a 14-stroke kanji. (typo?)
墨 (14-stroke) is listed as a 15-stroke kanji.
奔 (8-stroke) is listed as a 9-stroke kanji. (typo?)
姫 (10-stroke) is listed as a 9-stroke kanji.
This is because 臣 (7-stroke) is listed as a 6-stroke kanji. (typo?)
孤 (9-stroke) is listed as an 8-stroke kanji.
廊 (12-stroke) is listed as a 13-stroke kanji.
延 (8-stroke) is listed before 廷 (7-stroke).
慕 (14-stroke) is listed as a 15-stroke kanji.
承 (8-stroke) is listed as a 7-stroke kanji.
挟 (9-stroke) is listed as a 10-stroke kanji.
掌 (12-stroke) is listed as an 11-stroke kanji.
搭 (12-stroke) is listed as a 13-stroke kanji.
整 (16-stroke) is listed as a 15-stroke kanji.
暑 (12-stroke) is listed between 13-stroke kanji.
暮 (14-stroke) is listed as a 15-stroke kanji. (typo?)
梅 (10-stroke) is listed as an 11-stroke kanji. However, since it's placed between the 10- and 11-stroke kanji it's not as noticeable.
棄 (13-stroke) is listed as a 12-stroke kanji.
模 (14-stroke) is listed as a 15-stroke kanji.
求 (7-stroke) is listed as a 6-stroke kanji.
泉 (9-stroke) is listed before 泊 (8-stroke)
泰 (10-stroke) is listed before 泳 (8-stroke)
流 (10-stroke) is listed before 浄 (9-stroke)
海 (9-stroke) is listed as a 10-stroke kanji.
滋 (12-stroke) is listed as a 13-stroke kanji.
漠 and 漢 (13-stroke) are listed as 14-stroke kanji.
濫 (18-stroke) is listed as a 17-stroke kanji for the same reason as 姫 above.
煮 (12-stroke) is listed as 12 strokes, but placed between 13-stroke kanji.
猶 (12-stroke) is listed between 13-stroke kanji.
番 (12-stroke) and 異 (11-stroke) seem to be reversed.
磁 (14-stroke) is listed between 15- and 16-stroke kanji.
福 (13-stroke) is listed after 14-stroke kanji.
穀 (14-stroke) is listed with 15-stroke kanji.
節 (13-stroke) is listed between 15-stroke kanji.
紫 (12-stroke) is listed between 11-stroke kanji.
緊 (15-stroke) is listed as a 14-stroke kanji for the same reason as 姫.
緯 (16-stroke) is listed as a 15-stroke kanji, just before 練, a 14-stroke kanji also listed as 15 strokes.
繁 (16-stroke) is listed as a 17-stroke kanji.
夢 (13-stroke) is listed as a 14-stroke kanji.
署 (13-stroke) is listed between 14-stroke kanji.
翼 (17-stroke) is listed with 18-stroke kanji, even though Wiktionary lists it as 17.
膜 (14-stroke) is listed between 15- and 16-stroke kanji.
華 (10-stroke) is listed between 11- and 12-stroke kanji.
著 (11-stroke) is listed between 12-stroke kanji.
衛 (16-stroke) is listed as a 15-stroke kanji.
衷 (9-stroke) is listed as a 10-stroke kanji.
被 (10-stroke) is listed as an 11-stroke kanji.
裏 (13-stroke) is listed before 12-stroke kanji.
褐 (13-stroke) is listed between 14- and 15-stroke kanji.
覧 (17-stroke) is listed before 親 (16-stroke).
誕 (15-stroke) is listed between 14-stroke kanji.
誠 (13-stroke) is listed between 14-stroke kanji.
諸, 諾, and 謁 (15-stroke) are listed between 16-stroke kanji.
謡 (16-stroke) is listed between 17-stroke kanji.
貫 (12-stroke) is listed between 11-stroke kanji.
賢 (16-stroke) is listed between 15-stroke kanji.
降 (10-stroke) is listed as a 9-stroke kanji.
隆 (11-stroke) is listed as a 12-stroke kanji.
雅 (13-stroke) is listed as a 12-stroke kanji.
頼 (16-stroke) is listed between 17- and 18-stroke kanji.
類 (18-stroke) is listed between 19- and 21-stroke kanji.

The radical 心 can (apparently) take two forms: 心 and 忄. Most of the time Wiktionary correctly counts the strokes in 忄 as 3, but it seems the list was ordered with 忄 counting as 4 strokes. Kanji affected: 忙 (6-stroke), listed as 7 strokes
快 (7-stroke), listed as 7 strokes but placed between two 8-stroke kanji
怖 (8-stroke), listed as 8 strokes but placed between two 9-stroke kanji
性 and 怪 (8-stroke), listed as 8 strokes but placed between 9- and 10-stroke kanji
恒 and 恨 (9-stroke), listed as 9 strokes but placed between 10-stroke kanji
悔 (9-stroke), listed as 10 strokes (in this case the radical is given the proper number of strokes, but there's another inconsistency accounting for the mistake)
悟 (10-stroke) may actually be correct. It's between the 10- and 11-stroke kanji, so I don't know if it's the last 10-stroke or the first 11-stroke.
悦, and 悩 (10-stroke), on the other hand, are listed as 10-stroke kanji but placed between 11-stroke kanji
悼, 情, 惜, and 惨 (11-stroke), listed as 11 strokes but placed between 12-stroke kanji
惰 (12-stroke), same situation as 悟.
愉 (12-stroke), listed as 12 strokes but placed between 13-stroke kanji
慌 (12-stroke), listed as 13 strokes but placed between the 14 and 15-stroke kanji
慎 (13-stroke), listed as 13 strokes but placed just after 慌
慢 (14-stroke), listed as 14 strokes but placed between 15-stroke kanji
慣 (15-stroke), listed as 14 strokes and placed between 15-stroke kanji
慨 (13-stroke), listed as 12 strokes and placed between 15-stroke kanji (what on earth?)
憎 (14-stroke), listed as a 15-stroke kanji.
憶 and 憾 (16-stroke) seem to be correct, somehow
懐 (16-stroke) is listed after 17-stroke kanji

埋 (10-stroke) and 城 (9-stroke) are reversed in order.
玉 (5-stroke) and 王 (4-stroke) are reversed in order.

Some kanji, such as 佐 and 信, have different readings compared against another site listing the Joyo kanji: <www.sarumayo.com/2005/joyo-kanji.html>. Which site is correct?

Many provided kanji readings show the okurigana as part of the reading. Ex: 嫌 Further, those that separate the kunyomi from the okurigana do so inconsistently. Some use a dot, others parentheses. At least one other placed the reading itself in parentheses rather than the okurigana.

Is 行 really a radical on its own? Why does the stroke-ordering for the 日 radical seem to reset at 曲? Are 日 and 曰 different radicals, given that Japanese doesn't use the latter? I realize that the left- and right-hand beta-looking radicals come from different kanji, and so you could claim that they're different radicals. That said, they're still only three strokes each. Why should they be grouped with the 8- and 7-stroke radicals, respectively?

Typo: "practic" should be "practice"

Well, that's all I found. There might be others that simply escaped my notice. 218.225.111.205 06:37, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
P.S.: If someone has a way to organize this topic that doesn't involve horizontal breaks, please feel free.

[edit] Missing entries

First I would like to state that I am not a student of Japanese, but merely a casual observer. I am wondering, are the missing entries of various Onyomi and Kunyomi variations because it is not possible to write these words using these systems, or is it merely because this page is still a work in progress?

I also wonder if the answer to this question should be included in the article for clarity. Thanks! Bilge [TC] 21:48, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

The missing entries are because the article is still a work in progress. There are other, more serious problems with the entries listed -- conflicts with other lists I've checked as to what the readings should be -- but missing readings only reflect that wikipedians have not had time to add them all. 65.12.16.199 19:57, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

When adding information on Kanji, please remember to leave a N/A for cells that are supposed to be empty. This should be useful until the list is complete. Whitelet 20:16, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

Addition - well I noticed a missing transliteration next to the symbol 歩 and added it as ayumu - again like you I am no student merely an observer - I'm pretty certain that's how it's pronounced - somebody please make sure. - Zayd 79.76.209.38 (talk) 15:04, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Okurigana separation

I am noticing that even though the section is currently far from complete that there are a few differences from entry to entry regarding the kun readings. For example 且's kunyomi is denoted as か・つ, with a clear separation of the kanji reading from the okurigana. However in entries such as 始, it is listed as はじめる instead of はじ・める. I would suggest that if you are undertaking the task of filling in the blanks to make note of this distinction for the educational accuracy for students. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 162.115.172.121 (talk) 18:57, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

What is the significance of the interpuncts? Bilge [TC] 09:14, 10 November 2007 (UTC)
As shown above, the interpuncts separate the reading of the kanji from the okurigana. For another example, 食べる is read たべる. So it should be written in the table as た・べる (well, actually it should probably only be in the table as た, but that's beyond the scope of this paragraph). 218.225.111.205 23:25, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
I agree with the first IP user, the okurigana should be consistently marked. I disagree with the second IP user; listing only i.e. た for 食 leaves out important context. -Amake (talk) 08:31, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] English meanings

I noticed that many of the English meanings come from Heisig's "Remembering the Kanji", possibly via Jim Breen's KANJIDIC (which, for some reason, lists the Heisig keyword first among the characters' meanings). I would not consider Heisig's list a reliable source for this purpose because Heisig freely admits that he had to fudge the meanings of many kanji for the purposes of his system, which requires that each kanji have a different keyword, and that the kanji are as easy as possible to associate with the keywords. He does this either by using a shade of meaning that doesn't quite capture the meaning of the kanji, or by using a secondary, uncommon meaning. Heisig is a system of learning kanji, not a reference work. (This is in no way intended as a slam on Heisig; I use his book for learning kanji myself.) A better source of meanings would probably be something like the New Japanese-English Character Dictionary by Jack Halpern, but I don't have it. - furrykef (Talk at me) 18:44, 24 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Significance

I only just now noticed that the significance of the Joyo list is completely missing from this article. Outside of the fact that these are the ones officially taught in the nationwide primary-to-secondary school curriculum, what meaning does this list have? Is it accurately described as "regular use" kanji? Are newspapers or other publications required to use only these kanji (I believe they are)? Notability and significance is crucial to any subject - as it reads right now, it seems as if it is simply a list published by the Ministry of Education, and bears no further significance to the modern Japanese language or to Japanese life/culture/society more generally. LordAmeth (talk) 15:12, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

The fact that they're taught actually makes them significant; you could say that means they're characters people are expected to know and as such will be used frequently. Of course, that's a bit of a simplification and currently the article doesn't even state that... I'll look into getting some good info on it. 130.89.228.82 (talk) 14:31, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Chinese characters in English Wiktionary

Why are there so many Chinese characters in the English Wiktionary? I find that it is inappropriate. They should only be found in the CJK Wiktionaries. Furthermore, no Chinese Wikipedia pages exist for at least some of the characters. -220.255.7.233 (talk) 07:43, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

Um, because English speakers also want to know what CJK characters mean? The equivalent articles in, for instance, the Chinese Wiktionary would give definitions in Chinese, which would be worthless for English speakers. I don't see the problem here. -Amake (talk) 12:45, 8 April 2008 (UTC)