Talk:Iyasu V of Ethiopia

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Iyasu V of Ethiopia was a good article nominee, but did not meet the good article criteria at the time. There are suggestions below for improving the article. Once these are addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake.

Reviewed version: January 27, 2008

Contents

[edit] Biography assessment rating comment

WikiProject Biography Summer 2007 Assessment Drive

The article may be improved by following the WikiProject Biography 11 easy steps to producing at least a B article. -- Yamara 02:31, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Discussion

Sources on the net are totally confusing on how he should be titled - "Lij" is just "Mr.", and some sites seem to use that to emphasize that he was never crowned. However, there are four other Iyasus that ruled Ethiopia, so it seems more usefully consistent to call him a "V". But if anybody knows what to do, feel free to fix. Stan 06:48, 31 Dec 2003 (UTC)

Iyasu could be considered Emperor, although he did not undergo coronation. A number of Emperors (e.g., Sissinios) delayed their coronation until they could claim a major military victory. Inasmuch as Iyasu was overthrown by Haile Selassie with the support of a large group of nobles & the Ethiopian Church, conventional Ethiopian history has tended to blacken his reputation (& also question his legitimacy) as much as possible. But as far as I can tell, no authority seriously questions the fact that he was the Emperor between his grandfather Menelik II & Zauditu; which is why, after checking Paul Henze's book, I reverted Whig's changes. -- llywrch 20:03, 22 May 2005 (UTC)
The title of "Lij" is not just "Mr.", but is a title granted only to the sons of high nobles. The equivalent to "Mr." is "Ato", and Lij Iyasu has never been refered to by any source as an "Ato". He is sometimes refered to as "Abeto" which is a title reserved for royal sons, or sometimes the title of "Abeto-Hoy" in conjunction with the title of "Lij" which he seems to have prefered to use during his life time. The current Iyasuist claimant, his grandson Dr. Girma Yohannes Iyasu, uses the title of "Abeto-Hoy Lij Girma" as his style in his claimed role as Crown Prince of Ethiopia. It is also erroneous to state that Iyasu was overthrown by Haile Selassie, who played a minor role in the dethronement. The conspiracy was led largely by the conservative faction at court led by Fitawrarri Hapte Giorgis Denagde and other high nobles who were outraged by Iyasu's behavior as monarch, and his reforminst leanings. Haile Selassie ultimately benefitted from their acts, but it was a long and difficult road for him between the removal of Iyasu and his own ascendence to complete power. User:Sendeq

This article seems biased. 69.160.6.226 02:16, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

Please explain — ዮም (Yom) | contribs • Talk 09:59, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Date of Birth

According to this page, Iyasu was born in 1887, but at http://www.angelfire.com/ny/ethiocrown/lij.html they say he was born in 1901. Which is correct? nmw 03:09, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

Ugh -- both of them are wrong. When he insisted on being made ruler in 1911, Iyasu was a minor, IIRC 16 years old. That would suggest he was born in 1897. I'll have to look at my references when I get home tonight. -- llywrch (talk) 23:59, 7 December 2007 (UTC)
The problem is more complex than I had first thought. First, the year 1887 apparently comes from the 1911 Encyclopedia Britannica, so unless this is a scanning error, this is a very strong argument to Iyasu's year of birth -- only the most careless of fact checkers would overlook that a 14 year-old boy was said to 24 years of age, or vice versa. Harold Marcus (Menelik II, p. 230) clearly assumes that Iyasu was born in 1897. However, Haggai Ehrlich (Ras Alula, p. 125) refers to the fact that the son of Ras Mikael (Iyasu's father) was a guest of Ras Alula in March 1888! I haven't found a reliable source that provides the date when Ras Mikael married Lij Iyasu's mother yet. By this point in Ethiopian history, there are enough reliable witnesses that this article can't simply resort to WP:NPOV & write "Some say this, others that" -- so the search continues. -- llywrch (talk) 23:25, 8 December 2007 (UTC)
May I suggest Prowess, Piety, and Politics: The Chronicle of Abeto Iyasu and Empress Zewditu of Ethiopia (1909-1930) by Gebre-Igziabiher Elyas and Reidulf K. Molvaer? It is a chronicle written in the early 20th century by Gebre-Egziabher Elyas and edited (with notes and preface) by Reidulf Molvaer. It would probably be useful not only for the expansion of this article (which I know you've been working on to get up to FA status) but also would probably be a good source for finding out his true date of birth. While it may not give the day, it would certainly let us know whether or not he was a minor in 1916. By the way, what happened to that photograph of Iyasu? I know it is PD in the U.S., but what are the standards nowadays for those types of images on Wikipedia (not Wikicommons)? — ዮም | (Yom) | Talk • contribs • Ethiopia 00:27, 9 December 2007 (UTC)
The picture of Iyasu was lost in the the jihad/crusade/re-education effort/commercial incentives concerning Fair Use images. (There -- have I failed to offend anyone's sensibility?) However, I didn't try to upload another copy of this image & protect it with the proper language because I'm not 100% sure that it is in the public domain -- although, when it comes to the issue of creating a useful reference work, I'm gradually losing my interest over that issue. As for the reference, Yom, thanks for the pointer -- I'll look into it. -- llywrch (talk) 01:23, 9 December 2007 (UTC)
I have been looking for the Aleqa Gebre-Egziabher's book, & this search has led me to a quotation from Professor Tadesse Tamrat which is worth adding to this article -- although I don't know quite where it should go: had Iyasu succeeded in holding onto the "ancient throne", observes the professor, "he would have been perhaps the only monarch in the world to have claimed decent from Christ's ancestor King Solomon of Israel (through Menelik), and the Prophet Mohammed (through his father, Mohammed/Mik'ael)!" (review of this book in Journal of African History, vol. 37 (1996), p. 167) -- llywrch (talk) 06:35, 14 January 2008 (UTC)


[edit] Good article nomination on hold

This article's Good Article promotion has been put on hold. During review, some issues were discovered that can be resolved without a major re-write. This is how the article, as of January 13, 2008, compares against the six good article criteria:

1. Well written?: Good encyclopedic-style prose, section ordering, etc, but some clarifications and MoS work needed. In the intro, it calls him the "designated by uncrowned" emperor. Shouldn't this say defacto? Elaborating on his precise history can come after, but it was confusing to read that in the lead. For the block quotes in the article, I've switched to a <blockquote> format. You could also use a {{blockquote}} template. Of course, using the colon indent is an option, but I think the other formats look cleaner, and they are the preferred method of usage per WP:MOSQUOTE. One more issue: I know that technically jihad is still a foreign term meriting italics per MoS. But it is very commonly understood as a repercussion of Islamic terrorism, and I think it would be better to not italicize it. Minimal change to text is desirable in terms of readability, but maybe a link would suffice for those unfamiliar. What do you think? Moving on, I know that infoboxes are optional, but what would you say to adding a biobox? It's not a requirement of the criteria, so just an idea.
2. Factually accurate?: Sterling work in references and inline citations, kudos.
3. Broad in coverage?: Covers all major aspects and stays on topic.
4. Neutral point of view?: Fair and equal treatment of all significant points of view.
5. Article stability? Of course.
6. Images?: I know photos of long-dead Ethiopian rulers a not exactly a dime a dozen, but some kind of image, even in the body, would be nice (note that I've already passed the article on the images criterion, requiring images is only for FA). Perhaps an image of Menelek, or a look for an illustration from Google Books?

Please address these matters soon and then leave a note here showing how they have been resolved. After 48 hours the article should be reviewed again. If these issues are not addressed within 7 days, the article may be failed without further notice. Thank you for your work so far. — VanTucky 00:41, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Notes

For readability, please place any comments or questions pertaining to the hold below rather than within the body of the review. Thank you!

  • Important note: the nomination of this article wasn't completed correctly, in the future when nominating please make sure to place the appropriate template on the article talk as outlined at WP:GAC VanTucky 00:41, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

[Copied from my talk]

Sorry for the delay; I've had some personal business that's taking up my time. Here are my questions, posed in a manner that I hope is not comabtive, a failing I often display:
  • "In the intro, it calls him the 'designated but uncrowned' emperor. Shouldn't this say defacto?" -- IIRC, Ethiopian custom was that an Emperor would not be crowned until following an important event (like a military victory) in his reign. This was not unusual: another example Haile Selassie ruled for several months until he could throw a proper gala & introduce all of his titled visitors from Europe. However, I have the impression that this fact is often mentioned by his enemies to discredit his legitimacy. I'm not quite sure how to phrase this in a way that doesn't reek of original research or peacock language.
  • "technically jihad is still a foreign term meriting italics per MoS. But it is very commonly understood as a repercussion of Islamic terrorism, and I think it would be better to not italicize it. Minimal change to text is desirable in terms of readability, but maybe a link would suffice for those unfamiliar." -- I am quoting Trimingham in this section, & IIRC he italicizes the word. Unless you think I should suppress all italics in this quotation.
  • "I know photos of long-dead Ethiopian rulers a not exactly a dime a dozen, but some kind of image, even in the body, would be nice" -- I know of an image at the RoyalArk website (which is one of the external links), but I don't want to add it into the page until I understand whether it is PD or Fair Use. Unless you think it is worth the hassle of dealing with the "Free image" types & their bots.
If you don't feel you can answer these questions, a pointer to the best place to ask would be great. Thanks in advance. -- llywrch (talk) 23:37, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
Some responses: First, what you're describing still meets the definition of de facto, albeit a unique variety. I don't think further elaboration would be OR or too flowery, but saying de facto is a good way of making clear what you're basically meaning, which is that he was practically-speaking the Emperor, but it wasn't official. If it's italics in the quote, it should stay that way. Don't worry about the images if it's a bit bother, it doesn't really matter for GA. That answer your questions? VanTucky 04:14, 17 January 2008 (UTC)
Actually, what I'm looking for is feedback, trying to figure out what this article needs to be accessible. This may not be the wisest thing to say here, I don't have any serious interest in getting this to GA -- just in making this a good, usable article. Of all of the points you've raised, the part on the section "designated but uncrowned" is the one I've been most seriously thinking about how to resolve, especially because the phrase de facto seems to miss an important nuance. -- llywrch (talk) 04:54, 17 January 2008 (UTC)
Okay, that's perfectly fine. I'll try and tweak it, keeping that in mind. VanTucky 05:45, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

Since you weren't really interested in GA to begin with (and bc the hold period has passed), I've failed the article for now. I'll come back and do some more editing per the above as soon as I get a chance. VanTucky 02:59, 27 January 2008 (UTC)