Talk:Ivory Tower

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If the Song of Solomon (7,4) says "Your neck is like an ivory tower", then it was a metaphore already at that time. Like what? What was the real ivory tower like? --LA2 18:44, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

Well, it's obviously a tower and it's made of ivory. That's as much as I can guess... I'm not an expert on the subject, I just translated the article. :) --Koveras 22:12, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
Thanks for translating! But the question remains. Ivory was brought to Israel on King Solomon's ship (1 Kings 10:22) and he had a throne decorated with ivory (1 Kings 10:18) that he had to climb up. Maybe that was the original ivory tower? Palaces of ivory are mentioned in 1 Kings 22:39, Psalms 45:9, Amos 3:15, says my old biblical dictionary. Many kinds of towers are also mentioned, but none of ivory. --LA2 12:07, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

Contents

[edit] Propose merge

Academic elitism (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) is, apart from the occasional bit of soapboxing, essentially about the same concept. Almost all the references in that article use the term "ivory tower", and that article is essentially a discussion of one half of the ivory tower concept. This is a better and more complete article, so I propose a merge to this, the more common term. Guy (Help!) 23:15, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

Comment: I disagree. These two important concepts are related but far from identical. Whereas the ivory-tower core of academia holds itself apart from the outside world, pursuing its internal whims and fancies in blissful, self-absorbed contempt of its social and cultural environments, academic elitism is a pervasive socioeconomic phenomenon wherein certifications dispensed for profit by the keepers of the Ivory Tower are increasingly demanded of the public at large for purposes of employment, advancement, and arguably, economic survival. They exist in two largely separate realms and refer to two very distinct aspects of the relationship between academia and society. It appears at first glance that they could both be incorporated in the Academia article under separate headings, but the Academia article is already quite long. Given the importance of these topics, this implies that separate articles are appropriate after all. Asmodeus 00:08, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

For the context of Asmodeus' view seeWikipedia:Requests for arbitration/ScienceApologist/Proposed decision. Guy (Help!) 13:11, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
  • I support Asmodeus, and want to add that this article covers not only the academic elitism per se, but also the religious origins of the term which would likely go lost if the articles were merged. --Koveras ☭ 06:42, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
  • I'd agree with Asmodeus and Koveras. --Wetman 12:05, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
    • I too agree with Asmodeus et al. that the words are different concepts, but I do not agree with him about the distinction. "Ivory tower" can refer to any intellectual as viewed from someone involved in active policy affairs. eg Banning all CO2 emissions completely is just ivory tower thinking; in the real world we have to go by stages." People using it are often making an appeal to popular prejudice against a true analysis of the situation, but it is not a personal attack, and can be used in a joking manner.
    • "Academic elitism" is the the term for the opinion that academics have a viewpoint that those academically unqualified have no right to an independent judgment. "To only discuss peer-reviewed articles about CO2 emissions is academic elitism." This can be a personal attack,in which a person's opinions are disregarded because he is assumed to have (or does have) a low opinion of those without his formal qualifications.

It also has a second meaning, as a near-synonym of "academic snobbery", the view that those affiliated with academic institutions of great prestige are necessarily more expert than those at less well-thought-of institutions. It is only classism incidentally, because the institutions of great prestige are associated with the upper classes. "academic snobbery is meant to imply that both are true."

    • In view of the possible differences in opinion shown above, it might be wiser to keep the articles separate. DGG 03:47, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] A precursor to the modern sense of "Ivory Tower"?

Admittedly, this may be original research, but has any published study pointed out the possible relationship of this stock image to this well-known passage from John Milton's Areopagitica?

As therefore the state of man now is, what wisdom can there be to choose, what continence to forbear, without the knowledge of evil? He that can apprehend and consider vice with all her baits and seeming pleasures, and yet abstain, and yet distinguish, and yet prefer that which is truly better, he is the true wayfaring Christian. I cannot praise a fugitive and cloistered virtue, unexercised and unbreathed, that never sallies out and sees her adversary, but slinks out of the race, where that immortal garland is to be run for, not without dust and heat. ... That virtue therefore which is but a youngling in the contemplation of evil, and knows not the utmost that vice promises to her followers, and rejects it, is but a blank virtue, not a pure; her whiteness is but an excremental whiteness...

(emphasis mine) To labor the obvious, ivory is often associated with whiteness and purity. -- llywrch 18:31, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

It's is a good observation but I honestly can't think of a way to incorporate that into the article without getting accused of OR, as you already mentioned. :( --Koveras ☭ 21:43, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Forgetting Lucretius

If this is in any way helpful, I would like to point out that in the classics discipline it is generally agreed that the original conception of the 'Ivory Tower' comes from Lucretius's De Rerum Natura (II.7-19), published in 55 BCE. I'm not sure what the policy is regarding citing from the Loeb text, so I'll make a loose (read: my Latin is rusty) translation for this discussion:

"there is no happier thing than to possess a sanctuary, lofty and serene - fortified mightily by teachings of the wise - and to look down on others beneath you, wandering aimless, struggling day and night for ascendancy, matching wits, sparing no effort in scrabbling their way to the heights of wealth and power"


Apologies for the gratuitous "look down on others beneath you," but it was the easiest way for me to convey the sense of the passage, which has a highly detached, elitist reading in the original. Lsdazrael 03:30, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

Well, I wish you'd just edit that right into the article. --Wetman 06:01, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Biblical ref

I request the return of the "Biblical ref" since both sources provided in the article are naming Bible as the origin of the expression. Also, since the article title does not narrow the topic to modern use only, the "Biblical ref" should be returned for the sake of completeness. :) --Koveras ☭ 17:13, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

Errr, it's contradictory. See here:

The image is Biblical, but its subtext of delusions in common usage derive from a separate source

Either the article is about the Biblical ref or it isn't. If the term is unrelated, as that line suggests, the Biblical ref should be placed in disambig, or in its own article. If that line is wrong, I'm happy for the reference to be re-added minus the contradiction. Chris Cunningham 17:33, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
The source (World Wide Words) claims that the Bible influenced Sainte-Beauve:

The origin is the Bible, specifically Chapter 7, Verse 4 of the Song of Solomon, in which Solomon is extolling the beauty of his beloved: ... Not quite the thing today ... but it struck a chord with Charles-Augustin Saint-Beuve.

So I'd say that sentence has to be reworded and restored. For example, "Although the term is rarely used in religious sense, it is credited with inspiring the modern meaning" plus an inline citation. --Koveras ☭ 17:43, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
Cool. In that case, I'm happy for it to go back in. (And it gives us back a pretty picture as well.) Chris Cunningham 17:46, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] References in fiction

Reverting all your additions makes me feel like a wikinazi or something, and just so that you know, I'm not one. But we still need to differentiate between a passing reference to the words "tower" and "ivory" and a real homage to the concept in notable works of fiction. I therefore propose that starting today, everyone should suggest their additions here, on the talk page, first. If there are no unaddressed objections after a week, feel free to add it to the main article. Otherwise, talk it out. Direct edits to the article section (unless it's a totally clear case) will be reverted like before. Thank you.

PS: "A totally clear case" would, for example, be the Childlike Empress' palace in The Neverending Story: it matches the meaning and it's used countless times throughout a famous book (and movie). --Koveras ☭ 13:31, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

The "This Is England" reference is legitimate because it is referring specifically to the concept described in this article and it provides a real world example of someone sitting in an Ivory Tower.--GaalDornick

How often is it used in the film? --Koveras ☭ 06:39, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
Just once, but what difference does it make? Your argument about why all references to an ivory tower shouldn't be used is because many of them are just those two words put together and don't have anything to do with the concept explained in this article, which is a legitimate argument. However, I'm explaining that the reference in this film has everything to do with this concept, and even refers to a real world example of someone sitting in an ivory tower. —Preceding unsigned comment added by GaalDornick (talk • contribs) 03:33, 15 October 2007 (UTC)
Oh for crying out loud, whatever. :) --Koveras ☭ 09:52, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Alan Turing bio reference

In Andrew Hodge's bio of Alan Turing, he mentions in passing that "Ivory Tower" was used at Princeton to refer to the building/tower housing the graduate school, and that this reference was made because Proctor (of Proctor and Gamble, the manufacturers of Ivory Soap), was a significant benefactor of the institution. Proctor and Gamble's research facility has also carried the moniker "Ivory Tower." Turing was in residence at Princeton for a year or so about 1933, as many of the European scientists/refugees were establishing Princeton (and the Institute for Advanced Study, housed at the graduate school) as a world-class research center. It makes sense that the common usage grew out of the Princeton reference, given that institution's central role in defining the modern research university in the U.S. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.206.22.53 (talk) 18:31, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

Hm, that's an interesting information, indeed. Do you, perhaps, happen to know the ISBN of the said book? --Koveras ☭ 20:17, 18 March 2008 (UTC)
The ISBN of the Turing bio is 0-671-49207-1. The reference (in the hardbound 1983 Simon & Schuster version) is on p. 117: "The tower of the Graduate College was an exact replica of Madgalen College Oxford, and it was popularly called the Ivory Tower, because of that benefactor of Princeon, the Proctor who manufactured Ivory Soap." I apologize for adding this in the "references in fiction" portion of this page; I had not intended to. -- Michael Pearson (pearson@jmichaelpearson.net) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 141.156.34.248 (talk) 11:46, 23 March 2008 (UTC)
That's a very good reference indeed. However, I can't find a book where I live so would you please add this information to the "Modern usage" section of the main article? I'll copyedit it then, if necessary. :) --Koveras ☭ 14:26, 23 March 2008 (UTC)