Talk:Ivan Turgenev

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This article incorporates text from the Encyclopædia Britannica Eleventh Edition, now in the public domain.
Russia Portal
Ivan Turgenev is part of the WikiProject Russian history, a collaborative effort to improve Wikipedia's coverage of Russian history. If you would like to participate, you can visit the project page, where you can join the project and see a list of open tasks.
??? This article has not yet received a rating on the quality scale.
??? This article has not yet received a rating on the importance scale.
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Biography. For more information, visit the project page.
Biography Portal
B This article has been rated as B-Class on the project's quality scale. [FAQ]
This article is supported by the Arts and Entertainment work group.
Maintenance An appropriate infobox may need to be added to this article, or the current infobox may need to be updated. Please refer to the list of biography infoboxes for further information.
Russia Portal
This page is within the scope of WikiProject Russia. If you would like to participate, please join the project and help with our open tasks.
B This article has been rated as B-Class on the assessment scale.
High This article has been rated as High-importance on the assessment scale.
This article has been reviewed by the Version 1.0 Editorial Team.
Version 0.7
 This article has been selected for Version 0.7 and subsequent release versions of Wikipedia.
Ivan Turgenev was the Wikisource
Collaboration of the Week starting 2007-10-27.

Contents

[edit] German transliteration

Turgenev is sufficiently affiliated with Germany that the German transliteration (Turgenjew) should be noted here. Lirath Q. Pynnor

I disagree. This is the English Wikipedia. The German translation belongs on the German Wikipedia. RickK 05:27, 13 Nov 2003 (UTC)

Both Turgenev and Turgenjew are transliteration of Russian therefore only the English transliteration should be used here. Maximus Rex 05:28, 13 Nov 2003 (UTC)

English readers are interested in how his name is spelled, in its many variants. Lirath Q. Pynnor

No, they're not. Lir is trying to be disingenuous. See the controversy that he engendered over attempting to rename Christopher Columbus and subsequent attempts to name every place and person in Wikipedia by the name they are known in their native languages, instead of what they're known as in English. RickK 16:38, 13 Nov 2003 (UTC)

I'm an English reader, Im interested. Maybe you aren't academic enough to be interested; but why do you want to suppress the information? Lirath Q. Pynnor

I don't believe Rick is trying to suppress anything - just discussing whether to include the information in the article. The word "suppress" has unfortunate connotations of government censorship and the like, so it might provoke meta:more heat than light... Martin 15:43, 15 Nov 2003 (UTC)
Shall we list the transliteration of Turgenev's name in every language in the world? Why does the German transliteration need to be here in preference over any other? RickK 19:17, 15 Nov 2003 (UTC)
Lir does answer that question at the top of this page: "Turgenev is sufficiently affiliated with Germany that the German transliteration should be noted here". Presumably Turgenev isn't "sufficiently affiliated" with other languages? Martin 19:26, 15 Nov 2003 (UTC)

He lived in Germany for quite some time, I would expect that a great deal of writings refer to Turgenjew. Lirath Q. Pynnor

There are ~50 google hits for "Ivan Turgenjew" and ~700 for "Iwan Turgenjew", if that helps? Martin 01:00, 16 Nov 2003 (UTC)

For Google searches in English: "Ivan Turgenjew" 6 [1] "Ivan Turgenev" 9,440 [2]
-- Maximus Rex 01:04, 16 Nov 2003 (UTC)

(this is posted via a couple of edit conflicts, sorry if I'm duplicating numbers) I'm not exactly a Turgenev expert, but I've read quite a lot of him (for my sins) and a bit about him, and I've never come across "Turgenjew". I don't doubt that his name is transliterated that way in German, but I've never seen it in English. Google turns up less than 200 hits that it thinks are in English with any reference to "Turgenjew" (compare over 20,000 for "Turgenev"), and a lot of those look like they're not really in English at all. In my view, the spelling isn't nearly common enough to mention it in the article (though I'm certainly not going to edit war over it). What definitely would be good, however, is his name in Cyrillic. --Camembert
We have whole articles based on less than 100 google hits! ;-) Fair points - I've self-reverted. Martin 01:28, 16 Nov 2003 (UTC)

And what would be the harm in including such information? Lirath Q. Pynnor

It gives the impression that the German form is used in English. I mean, if you desperately want to include the German transliteration at the bottom of the article, clearly marked as a spelling that's only used in German-language contexts, I suppose I wouldn't really argue with that (though I'm not sure what the point of it would be). --Camembert

I have no objection to indicating that this is the german spelling -- if I were looking for information on Turgenev, if I were seriously doing research, I would take the time to find out his German transliteration...so that I could find German documents. I would like to be able to use the wiki for such purposes; it is fine if we don't include the Swahili transliteration -- but since he lived in Germany, it would be useful. Lirath Q. Pynnor

Well, that seems a reasonable reason to include it to me. Perhaps as a compromise with those who don't want it in at all it could be put around the bit where it mentions him being in Germany, eg "Turgenev's higher education took place in St. Petersburg from 1834 to 1837, and in Berlin from 1838 to 1841 (during which time he spelled his name Iwan Sergejewitsch Turgenjew)" or "(the German transliteration of his name is...)". Just a thought. --Camembert
Only thing is... are we sure that he did actually spell his name that way? OK, it's spelled that way in German, but did he himself spell it like that while he was in Germany? If so, great, and sorry, and I'll shut up, but I'm a bit concerned because I know that Russians around that time often took a French form of their name. --Camembert

Has the debate ended? Should we just delete off the superfluous German transliteration? Mandel 02:23, Sep 3, 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Inaccuracy?

"Turgenev is considered one of the great Victorian novelists" - I was under the impression that 'Victorian' was reserved only for Britain? Surely it would be more correct to state "19th Century novelist"? --JDnCoke 16:26, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Interestingly, Turgenev is called Victorian by quite a lot of scholars - both because of the period he wrote in (although you're right that the term 'Victorian era' is usually only used in reference to Britain) and because of what might be called 'the spirit' of his works. He was by far the most prominent and popular of Russian writers in 19th century Britain (and not Tolstoy or Dostoevsky) and is generally considered to write in a style most characteristic of Victorian writers. To be honest, my knowledge of English literature of the perioв is rather sketchy, so I am unable to provide any examples or, indeed, counter-examples. Also, Victorian is probably used as a shortcut for the period in which Turgenev actively wrote, which more or less coincideв with Queen Victoria's rule. I also suppose his Anglophile outlook contributed to him being called Victorian. --AVIosad 20:32, 15 November 2006 (UTC)


His date of death is listed as 3 September and 4 September at different points in the article.

[edit] Converting Windows-1251 to UTF-8

I'm trying to convert the windows-1251 to HTML unicode character codes. The wikipedia guide says that you can paste UTF-8 characters into the edit field and wikipedia will convert the utf-8 characters to HTML character codes. However, I cannot find any utilities to convert windows-1251 encoded text to UTF-8 encoded text. There are converters for all of the other cyrillic encodings but UTF-8 isn't supported by any that I've found.

燃

[edit] Russian originals

Let me urge people to add the Russian transciptions of the titles to their respective pages and not here. Mandel 20:25, Jun 11, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] The 1911 Encyclopedia entry

I think this entry makes it clear why the 1911 Britannica should not be used for certain entries in Wikipedia. It's bigoted and hopelessly outdated; the language is antiquated, and in places, is just terrible. The critical assessment is no longer valid; and people keep adding pointless edits without getting to the crux of his works. Turgenev's mother is "narrow-minded and vindictive"; the 1911 Encylopedia praises A Nest of Nobles as "one of the saddest and at the same time truest pages in the whole range of existing novels." People simply switch Fathers and Sons for A Nest of Nobles. Some editing, eh? Mandel 03:54, Jun 13, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Remove attention tag

I cleaned up the entry. There was much about Turgenev's background that was melodramatic ans presumptions about his freeing the serfs that were speculative and overstated. Since this was manifest and the tag applied nebulous I assume this was why it was applied. I removed it becau se of the clarifications I made. Iago Dali 18:05, 25 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Brain

The Guinness books I have say his brain weighed 2,012 g (4 lb 6.97 oz) – not 2,021 g (4 lb 7.29 oz) as it is said here. Can someone check this up? My guess is that 4 lb 7 oz was converted to 2,012 g (actually closer to 2,013), but I havent seen the English language editions with his entry. Plus, the proper symbol for gram is g, not gm. --Anshelm '77 21:14, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

Well, I did find some pages citing 4 lb 6.9 oz, like this one, though that converts to 2,010 g. --Anshelm '77 21:19, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

I personally thought the brain fact was just a bit awkward considering there is no reference to how much the average human brain weighs. I wasn't sure whether his brain was remarkably small or large so I looked it up here. 1,300 to 1,400 grams is the normal weight. Without this reference the fact seems strange and out of place in the article. This may be my opinion but perhaps a reference at least to it being a remarkably large brain or a reference to the average size of a brain should be made. --Christopher Nyberg 1:01, 11 April 2007 (EST)

[edit] Simone Lance

How does Simone Lance's opinion contribute to the entry? Neither her work nor the arguments she "ruthlessly cuts aparts" are cited. Prose is bad also. Ok to cut this concluding paragraph from Turgenev's "Career" section? Cyrusc 16:38, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

Please do, that was a NPOV no-no. 62.23.241.25 13:00, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Early works

Two of his early works:

  • 1843 - Неосторожность
  • 1847 - Где тонко, там и рвется

Were included in the see also section. I moved them to the plays section as I've determined from some Russian references that they are short plays. Неосторожность would roughly translate, I guess, as something like "carelessness" or maybe "recklessness" and "Где тонко, там и рвется" would be literally "Where it is thin, it vomits" although I'm guessing the phrase is not meant to be taken literally. Anybody know a source for accepted translations? --JayHenry 19:25, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

Which of his plays or short stories is about Mumu the dog?

Hi, I read an essay about one of Turgenev's stories or plays involving a deaf and dumb peasant who finds a dog called Mumu. The fief, who is secretly based on Turgenev's own mother, first expects the dog to warm to her instantly and be as friendly to her as the peasant who looks after her, and then when she doesn't get what she wants flies into a rage, next she is woken up by the dog barking in the night and orders it to be destroyed. The peasant very sadly follows the order because his life depends on her, but he is never the same again because the dog was his only friend.

I thought the play or short story (not sure) was named after the dog, Mumu, but I don't see it in the list. Is it another one or does it go by another name?

Thanks, Kester Ratcliff. Bhikkhu Santi 07:33, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

I've got a copy of short stories including Memoirs of a Superfluous Man, Asya, King Lear of the Steppes, First Love, The Song of Triumphant Love and Mumu. The ISBN is 0-19-282591-7, so these could probably be added. On another note, there's an 'Everyman' translation of The Nest of Gentlefolk which goes by the name Liza. In the introduction it is implied that this was the preferred name for the book whilst the former was a publisher's choice. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 131.111.200.200 (talk) 12:34, 9 March 2008 (UTC)