Talk:Ivan Moravec
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This article needs to be scrapped and re-written. It gives no useful information and is a complete opinion piece. I am not the one to do it as I know nothing about Moravec.
I removed all but the factual portions. No info is better than biased info. It does wikipedia a disservice to leave obviously biased and very low quality content in place... Hopefully someone will take the time to expand this.
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[edit] Information about a distinguished classical pianist.
I've never edited a page for the wikipedia before but I think this would be a good place to start. Ivan Moravec was not mentioned often in the media, but among classical pianist and classical piano aficionados his name is immediately recognized.
It is not surprising that his name is not recognized outside of a select few people who are deeply interested in classical piano. He never had a recording contract with a major recording label, so he was largely ignored by the mainstream media. However, if you mention his name to a classical pianist the will recognize his name. He has had some influence as a teacher. He also did not do as many concert tours, Likely partly because he spent his life in an eastern block country at a time when travel to the west was usually heavily restricted.
He has had some influence as a teacher. I do know personally at least two pianist who took the time and money to travel to Prague to study with him after completing the university degrees in piano performance.
Ivan Moravec rates a page in Groves Dictionary of Music and Musicians. That biographical Dictionary is recognized as the authoritative encyclopedia type reference volume amongst professional and academic musicians. I can find enough information that can be corroborated to come up with a page which places him accurately amongst classical pianist in the 20th century.
Ivan Moravec at least rates a biographical page as well as a discography and bibliography.
What I have written is a bare sketch, and needs to be filled out withe more detail. It is by no means ready for public viewing.
david
This some further biographical information
Born: Prague, November 9, 1930 Studied Piano with:
1. Grünfeldová 2. Štěpánová-Kurzová (1952–3 3. Michelangel invited him to his masterclasses in Arezzo (1957 and 1958)
début on Prague Radio in 1946 1959 London Debut 1962 First American Recording 1964 debut in New York with George Szell and the Cleveland Orchestra 1967 begins to teach at the Prague Academy
He is still actively teaching and touring.
Source for this information is Groves Dictionary of Music and Musician (Online). Groves is a subscription service which I accessed through my local public library.
On biographical entries like this, there will be, by necessity some opinion and value judgment, however it is possible to express the overall judgment of the body of his performances. That is how I think this entry should be approached. That he has a very reverential following does not surprise me in the least.
David Fedoruk
I've done more reading on editing in the Wikipedia fashion, I didn't sign the comments above. I will this one. I'm not offended in the slightest at the page being put up this way... at least something is there for this distinguished pianist!
Question.. is that the original page? I know those are glowing reports, however, I would have hard pressed to actually disagree of these statements. I have listened extensively to his recordings and they are very good. His Chopin and his Debussy are outstanding. The page is likely weighted to heavily towards his importance as a Czech pianist. The reason I'm interested in this page is that he does play an important part in the world of classical pianists ... He is one of the last still living of his generation. If you asked me for a list of the top 10 classical pianists, I would have to consider putting Moravec on that list. I think the page that Groves Dictionary has devoted to him is overly terse. Wikipedia could do better.
The information on his practice technique is invaluable. More of this kind of information is needed. Information about his technique, and who it has influenced would set him in place as a figure in the world of classical pianists.
As well, students traveled from around the world to study with Moracec. One of the professors of Piano at the University of British Columbia where I studied was his student. He had nothing but praise for him as a teacher and he sent one of his own students to study with him (c. 1975), and that was before the collapse of the Iron Curtain. So both Robert Silverman and his student braved crossing into the Czechoslovakia for piano lessons during those dark years.
The question is how to document this.
David Fedoruk
88Fingers 01:38, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
[edit] My edits, and attempt to resolve this dispute
Apologies if I've done things in the wrong order - the wiki pages related to resolving disputes suggest talking here first, which I probably should have done. Instead I've edited the Ivan Moravec page first and (after reading wikipedia's policies on neutrality and verifiability) attempted to correct the problems that caused the dispute.
One reason I may have jumped the gun, so to speak, is that I'm the person who created this page as a stub in the first place, and then left it unchanged for so long. By creating the stub, I hoped to persuade one of several qualified but busy music writers, who know Ivan Moravec's music very well, to complete the page. I thought one of them might respond, and waited too long. When I finally checked in a few nights ago, I was dismayed to find this situation. In my haste to correct the problem, I fear I may have made matters worse by not talking to Mr. Fedoruk and the challenger (Lbark?). If so, I'm talking now.
Can we work this out? Not only wikipedia, but Ivan Moravec deserves the best page that can be managed, and I have no illusions that my modest attempt is the last word. So if you don't think my version is an acceptable starting point, maybe the answer is to go back to my original plan and solicit contributions from a world-class music writer. I think good candidates include Donald Manildi, Bernard Jacobson, James Goodfriend, David Hurwitz, and Jonathan Carr. There are many others, I'm sure.
Thanks, User:Denisbradford70.22.245.86 02:43, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
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- This page is fine now, even better than before the NPOV stuff was added. I went ahead and removed the NPOV tag, and now I would also suggest that the stub tag be removed as it is really quite an extensive and well-referenced article. Lbark 17:35, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Re: Ivan Moravec edits
I have no problem at all with what you've done. Originally I intended to use the Wikipedia entry for Moravec as a link in a blog article. I was completely dumbfounded when I saw a page which I knew to be here, just gone. So the information I posted was extremely terse and simply dates, places and events which were easy to corroborate. Groves provided those details. You have quite nicely documented and placed him within the 20th Century (and 21st century as a pianist of note and not simply a czech pianist.
You mentioned Great Pianists of the 20th Century and the Moravec recording and it reminded me that I had thoe, I just dug them out! His Debussy is likely the finest Debussy playing by far! These recordings are even better than Michelangelli's ... but perhaps that is because the recording is so much better than what Michelagenlli receives from DGG. The producer (Tom Deacon) of the Great Pianist recordings worked for (or perhaps does again) the broadcaster I worked for a number of years ago. That set is actually important historical documentation about the major figures in the world of classical piano since it manages to cross label contracts and loyalties and so is a really representative document.
No entry for Connoisseur Society? That is distressing but not surprising given the nature of the label and recordings.
The only thing I'd wonder about in your splendid article is his status as a teacher. I know of him as a teacher because I know several people who risked going to Prague in the Early to mid-seventies to study with him. I wonder how many others have done the same or whether my view is skewed because of my acquaintance with two of his students.
At any rate, this is splendid work!
David Fedoruk --88Fingers 08:09, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
- The current page "reads" as though large snatches were copied unparaphrased from the promotional material referenced in the External links.
- Do I think Moravec rates a page here? Very definitely. And I'm glad that a quick search suggests he was still alive as of last year anyway, though placing him in the 1930 births category, poss. this one too, putting in sort keys so that he turns up under 'M' and not under 'I', and a bit of cleanup (and a whole lot of rewrite at least, which I might try to start) would be nice or even needed. Schissel | Sound the Note! 13:59, 24 September 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Cleanup requested
The current text is not written in traditional Wikipedia style though it would be fine for fan site. I suggest following:
- Keep only one photo (the one from 1971). The others bring no additional value here.
- Revise all superlatives unless they are referenced and not merely intended as a flattery. Plastering articles with terms as "widely acclaimed", "rising star" or "legendary" only devalues these words.
- Remove the poetic talking.
- The link to a management company should be the page about him, not the main page.
Instead the article could get much better in providing more facts about Moravec's life, recordings and appearances. Pavel Vozenilek 22:22, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Re: Cleanup request
I agree with Pavel's criticism about the tone of this article, and have edited the page accordingly. Better now? I will consider adding more content (as suggested) later. First things first.
Thanks, Pavel.
Perhaps we could loose Mr. Moravec's glowing praise of Michelangeli. Michelangeli does deserve praise, perahaps even glowing praise but English was not Mr. Moravec' first language and the quote sounds awkward. It is also badly out of context since this is a biographical page about Mr. Moravec. Michelangelli is most certainly an influencial teacher and performer in his life. It should be left at that. There are other anecdotes about how Michelangeli worked with his students but again, those belong on a page devoted to Michelangeli.
Documented facts are difficult to come by since these years were clouded by the cold war. However, perhaps there is more avilable documentation for someone actually living in Europe currently. The only thing I can do is check here for concert appearances.
