Talk:Ivan Kozlovsky

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An entry from Ivan Kozlovsky appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page in the Did you know? column on 30 May 2006.

[edit] cat:Russian Opera singers

The article links to Russian opera, and is part of the Russian opera project. As far including him under the category of "Russian opera singers", I think that is inappropriate because I don't know of other instances where people have been catagorized by the type of opera they sang as opposed to his background. As far as labeling him Ukrainian in the introduction: that is the only part of the article that lists him as such, other than his place of birth. The rest of the article makes it very clear where his career was spent.--tufkaa 13:14, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

See also questions about such dual listings here--tufkaa 13:30, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

Nationality can often be a tricky subject. What did Kozlovsky consider himself to be? - Kleinzach 14:53, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

Kozlovsky lived in Moscow, worked in the Bolshoi Theatre and spoke Russian. To call him a "Ukrainian singer" in the lead is highly misleading. The birth place is irrelevant. Rudyard Kipling was born and lived in India: does it qualify him as an Indian poet? Seneca was born in Spain, but he didn't become Spanish because of that. Nathalie Sarraute was born in Ivanovo of Russian parents, but nobody considers her a Russian writer. Mickiewicz was born in Belarus, but still remains the national poet of Poland. Schopenhauer was born in Poland, but he is hardly a Polish philosopher. Sigmund Freud was born in Bohemia, does it make him a Czech psychologist? I could continue for hours. --Ghirla ^-трёп- 15:03, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

I'm sure that accounts vary, and I haven't checked with any of my sources (his friends) yet, but he was well known to be proud of his Ukrainian heritage. I don't mean for this to be another post-soviet edit war, but my labelling him as a Ukrainian singer, again, was the only mention of this fact (apart from his place of birth); the rest of the the article makes it very clear that his career was in the Soviet Union. Categorizing him as a Ukrainian opera singer would seem rather odd without that fact in the article. As far as categorizing him as a Russian opera singer, I find that odd as well; I would liken this to categorizing someone as an Italian opera singer because of the type of operas he sang and where he sang them, as opposed to his nationality.--tufkaa 15:16, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

Kozlovsky is also referred to across the Web as a Ukrainian singer, and I don't speak of Ukrainian web sites. His NYTimes obituary labelled him a Ukrainian singer. I don't think this fact is disputed as you may think it is.--tufkaa 15:20, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

Kozlovsky is described as a Ukrainian tenor in the article in Grove which goes on to say that he was "the most popular Soviet singer of his time". - Kleinzach 17:15, 30 May 2006 (UTC)y

I disagree with the decision of the User "[Reichenbach] m (erroneous category (Russia =/ SU))" of taking off the Category:Russian opera singer. My opinon: it has to be restored. (Meladina 18:34, 30 May 2006 (UTC))

I also removed this article from Category:Russian opera singer before Ghirla restored it. My argument is that there are plenty of links with Russian opera within the Kozlovsky article, and thanks to your very much appreciated work, one should be able to find Kozlovsky in Russian opera and other articles. To include him in the Russian opera singer category, however, goes against the goals of Category:Opera singers by nationality. Kozlovsky is linked with Russian opera in many ways, but I don't think this category is one way he should be linked.--tufkaa 18:45, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

Maybe it is worth considering that Pavel Lisitsian, Mark Reizen and Fyodor Stravinsky are also currently listed as Russian plus [something]? - Kleinzach 19:47, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

I would characterize those appellations as part of the problem, not the solution.--tufkaa 19:55, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

Guys, please make sure you don't confuse nationality (гражданство) and ethnicity (национальность). IMO, there's no doubt the subject spent most of his career in USSR, and thus should be placed in Category:Soviet opera singers. From the article it looks like he was Russian citizen in 1992-1993 Russia, and 1900-1924 in the Russian Empire. So his nationality is Soviet and (partly) Russian. However, I would not insist at placing him in Category:Russian opera singers because 1920-1924 is an insignificant part of his career.

Of course, he may be ethnic Ukrainian, but it doesn't change much. Conscious 04:44, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

His being an ethnic Ukrainian doesn't prevent him from being called also a Russian singer since that's were he spent a significant part opg his career. Similar, Yekhanurov is a Ukrainian politician, although an ethnic Buryat. This is elegantly dealt with at List of Russian authors which starts from the statement: "This is the list of authors that wrote in Russian language. Not all of them are of Russian descent." There is no doubt that Kozlovsky's contribution to the Russian opera is significant and the category is warranted. I wish people were interested in improving the article's content more. --Irpen 05:05, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

I am completely neutral with regard to this discussion but it is of great interest to the Opera Project because of other problems we have had in the past with central European composers. There is an ongoing debate about Handel’s nationality (German or German-English or German-British), Christoph Willibald Gluck (Bohemian or Bohemian-German or Bohemian-Austrian), Florian Leopold Gassmann (Bohemian or ?) and I think there were some controversial Alsatians, Burgundians etc. There are also a number of east European singers who lived most of their lives in Vienna.

I would like to try to propose some rules.

1. Nationality refers to national identity, in other words the national group with which the person identified, not the state of which the person was a citizen or subject. (e.g. we use English, Scottish, Welsh and Irish rather than British. British is only used for minorities that have no clear national identity).

2. Nationality should not be anachronistic/retrospective, i.e. in the case of historic artists it should not be defined by present-day borders and states (e.g. 18th century Bohemians should not be updated to Czechs etc.)

3. If there is any doubt about the nationality, we should be inclusive and use a double designation (e.g. German-American etc.).

I would be grateful for your ideas and comments. - Kleinzach 09:00, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

I fully agree as far as the nationality is concerned. But note that there is a difference in saying that someone is "Russian" and someone is a "singer of Russian Opera". If one contributed to Russian art, he belongs to an appropriate category. OTOH, the ethnicity should be stated independently. The article now includes both "Ukrainian-born" and the cat:Russian Opera Singer. I think this is exactly the inclusivity you were talking about. --Irpen 16:43, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

I still prefer was a Ukrainian lyric tenor, one of the great/greatest stars of Soviet Opera, as well a producer and director of his own opera company, and longtime teacher at the Moscow Conservatory. But that's just me.--tufkaa 17:27, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

May I then suggest a compromise? That we use tufkaa's introduction - but with the cat:Russian Opera Singer for the reason given by Irpen, How would that be? - Kleinzach 19:57, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

Brava! If only it were that easy...--tufkaa 20:15, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

Was that a yes or a no? - Kleinzach 10:12, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

That was a hearty (yet snippy) yes, along with my guess as to how well it will go over. Thank you for trying to compromise, though.--tufkaa 14:25, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

I have made the change. I hope it is acceptable to all. Greetings from Scotland! Kleinzach 17:01, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

BTW, the great/greatest was my way of saying I couldn't decide which one to use. Can you please pick one?--tufkaa 17:04, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

Sorry, didn't notice that. It's corrected. - Kleinzach 17:36, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Ukrainian singer

Something no-one has mentioned are the numerous recordings of Ukrainian folk songs Kozlovsky did particularly with the Kievan Bandurist Capella. Also there is the matter of the recording of Ukrainian Christmas Carols he was allowed to make in Moscow and also the fact that he constantly spoke Ukrainian with his countrymen. --Bandurist 10:53, 29 August 2007 (UTC)