Template talk:Italian people

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[edit] Tidying

I have created this page, but it needs tidying really. Crystalclearchanges (talk) 19:27, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

Nice template, but it needs a few adjustments. First, the title is misleading (perhaps simply "Italian people" or "Groups of Italian people"?). Second- all references to "Greater Italy" should be removed- this is an irredentist propaganda phrase thst will lead to contentious issues (just have a look at Talk:Dalmatian Italians). Mariokempes (talk) 19:41, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
I've made some modifications based on above and to reorganize into more appropriate headers. buona notte. Mariokempes (talk) 23:08, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
I am working on a new article titled "Greater Italy". It will be similar to others like "Greater Serbia, Greater Albania, Greater Poland, Greater Germany, Greater Hungary, etc..) and will NOT deal only about Italian Irredentism: If those articles exist, why ONLY the Italians cannot have an article similar to those already existing about other countries?--Pannonicus (talk) 00:37, 14 February 2008 (UTC)


Your article on Greater Italy is good... but I am reverting the changes just the same, which I believe are a good compromise. This template should be about Italians as an ethnic group- not historical political visions and events. Also, the template is far too large and complicated. Finally, Italian Jews are not the same as Italian Israelis. Please discuss on Talk:Italians or here before making further changes. Mariokempes (talk) 20:21, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

Sorry, but the template is similar to many others and deals with ethnic matters with historical & political perspectives (like the ones about other european populations). Feel free to do the corrections you like about the "Italian Jews" and "Italian Israelis". Anyway, I agree with the work done by Crystalclearchanges and I am reverting to his version.--Pannonicus (talk) 00:15, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

Similar to what??? I've looked at Germans, French People, Spaniards, Poles, Albanians, Croats and Bulgarians. Nowhere is there such a thing. This is nothing but nationalist incitement when it's taken out of its historical context and it's embarassing to me as an Italian and a European. Mariokempes (talk) 06:23, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

Calm down, calm down. I don't see any nationalistic incitement in the template of Crystalclearcharges and Pannonicus.

I am reverting to the original version of Crystalclear. Let's do WIKILOVE! Mary —Preceding unsigned comment added by 4.231.207.237 (talk) 15:02, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

While there may be a place for such articles, having a template about "Italians" with dodecanesi, corfiots, lybians, maltese and the like listed is just as politically motivated as putting lombardy and veneto as part of "Greater Austria" or southern Italy as part of "Greater Spain". Complete nonsense! While I supported the inclusion of Istriani, Corsicans, and even italian dalmati, there is a clear difference in that these people have a true historical connection to the ethnic composition of the Italian people.
professor Mary, your template (oops, I mean Pannonicus' template) IS incitement. Your arguments (oops, I did it again- I mean Bruno/ BD and assorted anonimous IP numbers from Colorado's arguments) on related articles- such as Nizzardo Italians or Corsican Italians are political situations not to be confused with the Nizzardo or Corsican populations in general and which are ethnically Italian anyways. You have profitted from Crystalclear's innocent creation of a template based on info you generated (that is, if he is indeed a separate being and not a sockpuppet. I'll give him the benefit of the doubt). I am reverting this one last time. Mariokempes (talk) 05:45, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

Oh my gosh calm down everyone. I haven't checked this for a while so i missed all of this. I disagree with some of the removals that were made, but i do agree it looks neater. I will continue to work on this. Crystalclearchanges (talk) 10:17, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

I see this template trying to do three things, so I've organized it to suite the three groups: 1. Italian immigration abroad/ diaspora, 2. Immigation to Italy, 3. Indigenous Italians outside Italy/ Historical claims. By the way, I'm not 100% sure about the last one as discussed above. The template is misnamed but I don't know how o move it- it's more than just an Italian diaspora. Dionix (talk) 23:17, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

I've altered the first group a bit to include Italian Jews, since they are really native Italians but don't fit into other groups (As pointed out by Mario above). —Preceding unsigned comment added by Dionix (talk • contribs) 00:50, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Historic populations outside Italy

There seems to be some serious POV pushing here. While many of the groups can undeniably be termed as "historic", or more precisely "native" groups of Italians, the ones closely tied to colonialism and "italia irredenta" seem to be part of someone's WP:POV. As Mariokempes stated above "this template should be about Italians as an ethnic group- not historical political visions and events". I think the historic colonial aspirations should be grouped separately or removed altogether. Dionix (talk) 17:56, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

Sincerely I don't see any POV pushing here. The template is similar - for example - to the template on "German diaspora" and the template on "Russian diaspora", and nobody sees "nationalism and irredentism" in those two templates, only an historical review of those diasporas. See the Baltic Germans as an example. Regards.--Brunodam (talk) 21:54, 6 May 2008 (UTC)
I'm referring to some editors' insistance on linking to specific articles about colonialism and historic events, rather than the groups of ethnic Italian people. For example, most would consider all Corsicans as ethnic Italians- the Corsicans themselves do. Yet someone keeps pointing to an article on "Corsican Italians" which is more about irredentist aspirations than about the people of Corsica. The same can be said for Nice, to which I changed the location but not the link (Why Nizzardo??- that is an Italian language term and this is English WP). Finally, the links to the former colonies and Fascist-era occupied lands are not really about Italian people so much as about a fleeting, historic diaspora of sorts. They definitely should not be under the "Italia irredenta" heading. There is no valid irredentism here. I hope we can organize these headings to be encyclopedic. Hopefully, you can see my point and help keep these anon POV pushers under control. Dionix (talk) 16:40, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
I too don't see where it is that "editors' insistance. I believe Brunodam is right.BTW Corsicans don't consider themselves to be Italians in our days: I am afraid you (because Canadian)lack of "real" knowledge of european problems related to ethnicity. I have reverted your mistakes. I believe we must do a template similar to those of Germany and Russia. --Pannonicus (talk) 16:50, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
It's funny that you consider this a "problem". Nonetheless, Corsicans do too consider themselves ethnic Italian. Corsicans first, French nationals second, but they are ALL aware (and proud) of their connections to the Italian people. Even within France they are seen as "Italian". I'm sure you are aware that the Corsican dialect (what's left of it) is closely related to Tuscan. Also, I'm not interested in the templates about Germany and Russia. Let's deal in resolving one unencyclopedic issue at a time. Dionix (talk) 17:00, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
Hey Dionix, what's going on with you? The opinions of Brunodam and Pannonicus are right. Nobody in Corsica today wants to be called Italian. They are proud of being French, but with their corsican dialect and roots. I have been there personally and can confirm this reality. Remember that fascism and irredentism are dead since WWII, and we are dealing with an HISTORICAL ethnic matter only. I totally agree with those two wikipedians. There it is no POV here, only a description of italian groups outside Italy. This is an encyclopedia, so we can deal even with these ethnic groups, even if related to the past.--BurtReed (talk) 17:15, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

I've been there too (for several weeks actually), and what I said I believe to be accurate. Now, having said that- let's move on to much more serious issues... does WP:Sockpuppet ring a bell? No wonder the three of you are in total agreement- and amazingly able to respond so swiftly to each other's defence. Dionix (talk) 17:37, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

And why you Dionix don't go on and ask for a check up of our IP? I see that you want to critic only the italian template. Why? May be because the Germans and Russians are first level people, while the Italian are only poor spaghetti and cannot have rights? Gimme a break, Dionix. If you want to change or even delete this template, be my guest and do whatever you like. I am out of this discussion that smells of typical anti-italianism. And smell even of a guy who enjoys creating an edit war.--BurtReed (talk) 23:11, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
Now you've really pissed me off "Burt". I've called your bluff Brunodam. Dionix (talk) 00:43, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

IT IS NEEDED A SERIOUS ADMIN TO DEAL WITH A WIKIPEDIAN (NAMED DIONIX) WHO DOES VERBAL OFFENSES ("PISS OFF") AND BREAKS THE 3 REVERSE RULE (SEE ARTICLE EDITS FOR 05/07/08), CREATING AN EDIT WAR.--BurtReed (talk) 02:55, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Maltese Italian

Is part of the Italian Irredenta regime. It should therefore be listed as such (which it was, before Dionix POV'd it). ItaliaIrredenta (talk) 22:08, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

The Maltese are NOT Italian people, in spite of the fact that there is much cross-germination and the language borrows heavily from Sicilian. The "Maltese Italians" are a minority group which, historically-speaking, wanted annexation to Italy (perhaps based on a simplistic assumption of irredentism) and this was promoted by the fascist regime. It has nothing to do with Italian irredentism based on the Italian language but can only be seen as colonialism. I'm reverting back and I advise you of the 3RR. Dionix (talk) 22:35, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
No one sayeth they were. However, they were part of the Irredentist claims, and not placing them into that section would be exhibiting a point of view, would thou not agree? ItaliaIrredenta (talk) 22:58, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
No I do not agree. This template is about Italian people, not fascist claims. It suffices to leave them under that category and to not change everything else in the process (as you had done). Happy editing Lawrence Andrew (sorry, I got your name wrong), let's see how long it lasts under this incarnation :) Dionix (talk) 23:02, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
First you say that I be BD, then IAAR, then Lawrence? Make up your mind, dear lord. Yet no, I disagree with the separation of the Greater Italia and the Italia Irredenta sections, since they represent the same ideas; one is a follow up to the other. ItaliaIrredenta (talk) 23:08, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

Obviously you are not paying attention: the separation is for the benefit of the real Italians outside Italy. The colonial aspirations are on their own. I can only assume you are intending to ramble on and on, Andrew, as you seem to like to do, so I'll leave this here. Gotta go. Dionix (talk) 23:34, 22 May 2008 (UTC)