Talk:Itanium/Archive 1

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I don't understand the second paragraph. At first I thought it simply referred to the processor as Merced and I was going to change this to "the processor" becasue the name merced had not yet been mentioned. However, I am not sure if it is correct to say that the processor was originally intended as an architecture. Would it be more like the project was orinally intended as a architecture.

I know nothing about this but refering to "Merced" before the reader has been introdeced to the word is not good. Borb 11:23, 24 May 2005 (UTC)

'it can slowly run x86 code in a firmware emulation mode' is more correct than 'it can slowly run x86 code in hardware', as far as I know. Do any experts know better?

Actually, both the Itanium and the Itanium II can run user x86 code in hardware. It uses the existing IPF (IA-64) datapaths to do this. - Steve roseundy 02:49, 27 Jul 2004 (UTC)

"the Itanic" -- presumably in analogy with the RMS Titanic -- could someone confirm? -- Tarquin

The Itanic joke has been going around for more than two years now. It's very well-known in the hardware enthusiast community. It started on a message board post by a man from New Mexico in 1999 and has picked up steam since.

Here's a copy of the post:

From: Kraig Finstad (kfinstad@unm.edu) Subject: Re: Itanium Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy View: Complete Thread (35 articles) | Original Format Date: 1999/10/04

In article <7tb3od$klj@news.or.intel.com>, "Kevin M. Taggart" <ktaggart@easytreet.com> wrote:

> >All the proc names that Intel has come up with are retarded. Itanium is, >perhaps, the worst. They should have called it "Titanic" ... > . > . > . > . > . > . > <=\\\=> >--KT

But they probably shelled out big bucks to have that first "T" removed from titanium. In this case, they'd have the Itanic.

-Kraig Finstad John

This article is largely redundant with IA-64 - is there actually a difference anyone outside Intel marketing cares about? Should one be folded into the other? - David Gerard 11:15, Jan 25, 2004 (UTC)

Unless anyone strenuously objects (and is willing to work to differentiate the two articles effectively), I'll be merging this with IA-64 in a few days
Hmm strictly speaking, IA-64 is the instruction set, whereas Itanium is the physical processor. The IA-64 article should specalise on just the instruction set, while the Itanium article can be about everything else such as the politics, development and processor specifications. Intel may in time put the IA-64 instruction set in processors sans Itanium, like how IA-32 eventually went in things other than the original 80386/486 core. - 203.109.254.57
So you're volunteering to disambiguate? :-D - David Gerard 11:32, Apr 3, 2004 (UTC)
I've just put the detailed stuff on EPIC into IA-64 - David Gerard 09:12, 13 Jun 2004 (UTC)
User:203.109.254.57 has several clear points, but I see your point as well David. However I do think a technical crowd would respect and appreciate the distinctions between ISA and implementation. Likewise a general crowd would appreciate having an article that focuses on what they care about (mostly implementation). The Itanium article could focus on implementation, market application, performance, and future roadmap. The IA-64 article can focus on the ISA, software challenges/developments, and perhaps emulation developments. I will look at working on further disambig - Vector4F 04:40, 7 Jul 2004 (UTC)
It is of course a marketing fiction that "Itanium" and "IA-64" are different things. But yeah, that division makes sense. The detailed stuff on EPIC should probably go in its own article, assuming there are examples beyond IA-64. And so on - David Gerard 09:26, 7 Jul 2004 (UTC)
Well, to be pedantic about it, the official Intel name for what is termed "IA-64" here is "Itanium Processor Family" (or IPF). So IA-64 and Itanium are the same thing. I agree however, that separating implementation (Itanium, Itanium II, Madison,.. etc.) from architecture (IPF) is a good thing. - Steve roseundy 02:49, 27 Jul 2004 (UTC)
I've just written the Itanium 2 page. I'm going to make this page talk about Merced only -- architecture stuff now all seems to be on the IA-64 page - Matthew Wilcox 09 November 2004

Contents

[edit] End of Itanium?

I've removed the link regarding Microsoft and Itanium for three reasons:

  • It is unclear is Microsoft ever intended to support anything else than it's server versions of Windows on Itanium.
  • This is more related to IA-64 and Itanium 2. Itanium processors are no longer on the market (see Intel's website)
  • Traditionally Microsoft has little market share in the high-end server market (the market the Itanium was targeted at)

Moreover, if someone decides it should be added back. Please cite the real source http://www.microsoft.com/windowsserversystem/windowsserver/bulletins/longhorn/itanium_bulletin.mspx and not just some Inquirer article (The Inquirer in not know to be one of most reliable news sources, although it's very good at rumors).

-- Koffieyahoo 14:59, 6 September 2005 (UTC)

I have restored the suppressed news and discussion. Microsoft has been steadily cutting its support for Itanium. The analysis of the architecture appears in Itanium and not Itanium 2. The article now cites the industry announcement.--Carl Hewitt 15:57, 6 September 2005 (UTC)

Okay,

I’m getting really, really tired of you reverting stuff which I removed under, what I believe are valid arguments. If you do so, you should provide solid sustainable counter arguments. Unfortunately, you don’t even try to do that. Three examples:

  • Your C# addition to the continuations article: you add it back by arguing that I should quote the C# spec on saying that it’s not a continuation. This is complete non-sense: 99.99 percent of specs of programming languages don’t say what a certain construct is not. They don’t do this, as it bloats the spec and as implementers of the spec are not interested in what a certain construct doesn’t do.
  • Your Microsoft addition to the Itanium and x86 page: You add it back under the cover of saying that Microsoft is big player. But, as I already mentioned Microsoft isn’t a big player on the high-end server market, which is the market the IA-64 architecture is aimed at. Moreover, it can also be argued that Microsoft is doing a very clever thing: They’re targeting their version of Windows for high-end servers at some the core application areas. Hence, it might just be the case that they want to gain experience in these areas before they start supporting other applications on these high-end servers.
  • You added back the "Prospects for the x86" section to the x86 article, but up until now you haven't come up with any arguments on why this doesn't violate the wiki policy of not being a crystal ball. Moreover, you completely ignore any application areas for which the x86 architetcure is completely unsuitable (do I hear high-end server market?).

Anyway, I beg you to provide solid arguments before you add something back of which you might suspect that the person who removed it had very good reasons for doing so.

-- Koffieyahoo 07:55, 7 September 2005 (UTC)

I can appreciate your tiredness and frustration. The Wikipedia process is hard work!

  • The net result of the process in the article on continuation was that (as you suggested) the example of delegates in C# was removed.
  • Attempting to suppress information from the Wikipedia article Itanium based on Microsoft conspiracy theories is misguided.
  • Attempting to suppress analysis in the Wikipedia article x86 on the false charge that it is "crystal ball" is similarly misguided.

--Carl Hewitt 16:25, 7 September 2005 (UTC)


I have removed the Microsoft has decided not to make further releases of its consumer operating systems for Itanium, concentrating only on x86-64 (AMD64, EM64T). because as stated here Microsoft will continue to develop the Windows Server versions for Itanium ISA. And if the removed text meant "consumer" versions of Windows, well, it's off topic and wrong too because further consumer Windows releases will not be x86-64 only. Lvn 23:22, 4 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Repeated deletion/whitewashing of Criticism section

Why are some Wikipedians so bent on removing the criticism section? Even after references were added, some seem determined to make sure the article only contains positive notes about the processor. —Joseph/N328KF (Talk) 05:44, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Copyright violation

As if the edit war by User_talk:65.102.172.33 on the Opteron and Itanium pages wasn't bad enough, a simple google search found that his recent contribution of "info on architecture" was copied from this Anandtech article. The stupid idiot didn't even put in proper images, just left them using Example.jpg. Imroy 07:18, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

There was no need to use the Template:Copyvio tag. You only use that when all text is suspect. In this case, just revert to the last legal version. —Joseph/N328KF (Talk) 12:43, 5 December 2005 (UTC)
I didn't add the copyvio template, that was Peyna. Imroy 04:05, 6 December 2005 (UTC)
Yes, that was me. Didn't realize there was a non-copyvio version available. Peyna 04:09, 6 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Response to Copyright violation

Copernicus, I was in the middle of the edit when you so eagerly reverted it resulting in merge error. I fully intended to add proper citation, credit, and linkage as well as correct the example image.

I don't care how much citation or credit you add, that's still a copyright violation. I suggest you read the copyright section of the contributing FAQ. Unless you can get the original author to relicense the work to be compatable with the GNU FDL, or the public domain, then it cannot be added to Wikipedia. Simple as that. Imroy 07:32, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

Fine, I will write an original description of the architecture.

Note that this is an article about the Itanium processor. Just as there is another page for Itanium 2. There's already a good and detailed right-up of the architecture at IA-64. Imroy 07:45, 5 December 2005 (UTC)
Good point. The Itanium clearly failed as a product, due to technical reasons I've now put back in the text. Any arguments about the future of IA-64 should be taken to the Itanium2 page. Timharwoodx 14:15, 26 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] HP marketing

I've seen examples of people who ADMIT to working for HP editing WIKI articles i.e. NVIDIA TNT2 recently. I think there has been a clear trend of removing vaid content, that suggested Itanium might not dominate the entire planet and make multi billion dollar profits for HP/Intel. I would hope this product is now so obviously dead, and being laughed into its grave by guys like Linus Torvalids in public, we can leave perfectly valid technical observations on the chip intact. I restored some excellent technical observations made several months ago, for which I can see NO VALID reason for removal. They are spot on. It was a massive screw up, due to too many bloated egos at HP and Intel paid far too much money. 85 engineers designed the VIA C7. What a joke that makes of multi billion dollar Itanic project.

The sales persons at HP (2001/2002) kept saying that customers should buy HP Pentium based servers, because "Itanium products are difficult to obtain".

[edit] XP Porting

Microsoft has ported Windows XP, Windows 2000, and Windows Server 2003 to Itanium. Microsoft server applications include SQL Server, Operations Manager, CRM Server, IIS, Visual Studio, and the .NET Framework. The decision was made in recent years to not include support for client applications or client operating systems (such as Windows XP) for the Itanium, because the market demand is too small to justify the porting and support costs.

I wasn't aware MS ported XP to Itanium. Was some or all of it ported, but never shipped?

MSTCrow 15:45, 8 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Itanic derisive nickname

Why should a derisive nickname promulgated by a satirical website be mentioned on the official website of the Itanium project? I think we should remove that paragraph completely. -Սահակ

Because it's widely used. There has been a campaign by Itanium fans to get rid of any negative information about this processor. It needs to stop. There are 157,000 Google references to the nickname. —Joseph/N328KF (Talk) 04:45, 9 April 2006 (UTC)
What do you mean 'official'? --ajdlinux 10:10, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
That's a good catch. I guess that word didn't make sense to my mind in this context, so it just ignored it. ;) —Joseph/N328KF (Talk) 10:42, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

I did a google search and found only 532 unique results for Itanic. Type "Itanic" in google search box, and then scroll through the pages until your reach 5xx results. After that it says: In order to show you the most relevant results, we have omitted some entries very similar to the 532 already displayed.

500 mentions is not "A widely used term" —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.59.115.230 (talk • contribs) .

Type "Itanium" in the Google search box, and then scroll through the pages until you reach 6xx results. It will also then issue the "we have omitted..." message. Type "Computer" and you get the same result after 8xx results. I don't believe that means there are fewer than 700 unique hits for Itanium or fewer than 900 unique hits for computer. --NapoliRoma 19:02, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

Most of the results come from register.co.uk, wikipedia, or sun.com who invented that term. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.59.115.230 (talk • contribs) .

A Google search for Itanic today returns 102,000 hits. A Google search for Itanic, excluding those three sites ( itanic -site:theregister.co.uk -site:sun.com -site:wikipedia ) returns 91,300 hits. --NapoliRoma 19:02, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

NapoliRoma, I think you are right, but then I don't know how would you measure objectively the popularity of a certain term. I don't see a reason to put that information into the article, because it is a subjective term. It might be very popular among TheRegister readers or Intel bashers, but not very popular among people who rely on Itaniums for everyday computer simulations. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.59.115.230 (talk • contribs) .

I don't know how you definitively measure it either, but it appears that many feel it's a part of the Itanium story worth mentioning. It's clear that it has a life far beyond El Reg; in fact, I just saw it used in my local paper earlier this week in their story about the Montecito launch, which seems to contradict your "now rarely used" edit of today.
Personally, I think many reading the current "now rarely used" edit are likely to think "huh; didn't I just see it used the other day?" and view that description as an attempt at whitewash. --NapoliRoma 00:17, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

I've only heard the term "Itanic" used once or twice while the Itanium was popular and that was at the Register as mentioned above. It seems it was more their "ha-ha" buzzword than anyone elses and it really doesn't seem relevant to the article or add any necessary or interesting information.--Urbanriot 17:19, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

I still see it used on occasion. In any case, as NapoliRoma said, it is now part of the story. Think of it as being like the name "Spruce Goose" for the Hughes H-4 Hercules. —Joseph/N328KF (Talk) 17:38, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

Later Note: User 66.179.20.9 (talk · contribs) added some information about the origin of the term on 2006-09-19. I've just edited the section into more encyclopedic style. Feel free to improve my wording! Cheers, CWC(talk) 09:02, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Itanium development

HP and Intel started working together in 1989. See http://news.com.com/HP+discontinues+its+Itanium+workstations/2100-1006_3-5381398.html

[edit] unnecessary sentence?

"Importantly, it was expected that AMD would be unable to clone it."

Firstly this is a speculation.

If its not a speculation but a fact, it should be written in present tense: "Importantly, it is expected that AMD will be unable to clone it."

and lastly I don't think that this sentence is important. This is an article about Itanium, not a gossip website discussing intellectual abilities of AMD.

Then, remove it. —BorgHunter ubx (talk) 21:52, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
AMD didn't want to clone it. Their 64-bit server strategy all along was to develop x86-64, which came to fruition as the Opteron. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 74.245.91.25 (talk) 15:18, 12 February 2007 (UTC).

[edit] No need to compare the popularity of Xeon with Itanium's performance.

This paragraph:

"The original Itanium was succeeded by the Itanium 2 which delivered on the performance promises for the architecture with leadership benchmark results across a wide range of workloads. However, recent data from the TOP500 supercomputer list suggests that Intel's Xeon architecture is more popular among the scientific computing community, with 263 Xeon systems and only 37 Itanium 2 systems as of June 2006[10]"

compares Itanium's performance with Xeon's popularity. Which is like comparing apples to oranges. Xeon is clearly more popular than Itanium. But Itanium is still faster than Xeon. So I am removing the last sentence which compares these two processors.

[edit] Entire Itanium family, or just the first processor?

Is this page supposed to be about the entire Itanium family, or just the first (Merced) processor in that family? Guy Harris 00:51, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Intergraph v. Intel

Is Intergraph v. Intel worth mentioning in the articles? Alex 17:02, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Itanium vs Xeon

How do these processor lines compare? Now than Xeon is 64 bit, is Itanium being phased out?

--68.103.154.140 21:12, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Itanium based supercomputers

I found one Itanium 1 based supercomputers at NCSA with 320 processors. The rank of the system is #53 in 2001. Is there any other faster system based on Itanium 1?

[edit] Difficulty in obtaining the CPU

In 2000/2001, there was a shortage of Itanium 1 CPU. I plan to order the evaluation board, but Intel put the priority on government contracts for Supercomputers. Buying the HP machines based on Itanium 1 was almost IMPOSSIBLE for several years (because of CPU supply problems).

[edit] Itanium Based Solutions

This section, added in September, was very weak. Most information was wrong and referred to x86-64 rather than IA64, for example all the 3d animation ports described as porting to IA64 were actually porting to x86-64. I updated this section (mostly by deleting stuff and leaving a historical note to an abandoned port). Also the Streaming Media section is pretty content free and probably not really worth keeping around. Need some more sections in here describing real applications, because the two categories in there right now are really niche markets for Itanium. Maybe just blow away the whole section for now until someone can compile a representative list?

[edit] Splitting this Article

Unless someone objects, I will move this article to Itanium processor and then add a replacement Itanium article to discuss the Itanium family as a whole. When this article started, it was about the whole family because there was no Itanium 2. Based on the recent edit history (mine and especially others) there is considerable confusion, and a lot of the market and application stuff relates only to the Itanium 2. After the split, the Itanium processor article will become purely historical.

The name change is important because, as User:NapoliRoma pointed out to me in a side discussion, most people who type "Itanium" into the search box are likey to want info on the latest processor.

I feel that the new Itanium article should not be integrated into the IA-64 article. The IA-64 article should focus on architecture, and we have no particular reason to believe that all future implementations of the architecture will be called Itanium. The Itanium article can be used for market, price, comparisons, applications, etc. Unless someone else either objects or undertakes this split, I will do the split on 2006-10-22. -Arch dude 17:28, 15 October 2006 (UTC)