Talk:Italian cuisine

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Good article Italian cuisine has been listed as one of the Everyday life good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can delist it, or ask for a reassessment.
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Contents

[edit] List of Italian dishes

The big list that was on this page has been moved to List of Italian dishes. - AKeen 03:14, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Regional cuisines

I'm confused by the addition of these with little to no information. Regions that have some information should be made into their own articles, and linked to from the main page, a la Sicilian cuisine. Others just seem dubiously named ("Sudtiroler cuisine"?) and should probably not be here. - AKeen 18:48, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

I've moved the remaining content of these regional paragraphs here until someone can make them into their own pages. We already have a regional section on the main page, and these little paragraphs weren't adding much - AKeen 17:43, 14 February 2007 (UTC):

[edit] Regional cuisines

  • Cuisine of Abruzzo: This area is predominantly mountains with some small valleys, and sheepherding, farming and livestock were all traditional ways of living. As such, pork, sheep, and goat are the main meats eaten in Abruzzo. Abruzzese cuisine is one of the few in Italy which uses hot peppers to any degree, and the Abruzzese call their red chili peppers diavolino or "little devils."
  • Cuisine of Calabria: Pork is the dominant meat, and there is often a striking balance between meat and vegetables in many Calabrese dishes. Eggplant is used extensively in Calabrese cuisine.

[edit] Pasta

Somewhere is written "... pasta is quite popular in the region.." about Emilia Romagna. Well, this region is one of the most known in Italy (maybe THE most known) for all different kinds of pasta they produce, expecially for the filled sorts. Just think that the major Pasta producers in the world (such as Barilla) are mostly from this region. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.190.230.105 (talk) 22:20, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Types of Italian Coffee

The content of this subheading appears to contain odd/erroneous information:

Italian coffee is usually compared to American espresso. Italian coffee is usually very strong. There are numerous types of Italian coffee, or caffè as it is called in Italian. Caffè macchiato is referred to as stained coffee. This contains a lot of coffee and a tiny bit of milk. Caffè ristretto is a shortened version of espresso. This is very strong and contains no milk. Caffelatte is a type of coffee where there is equal amounts of coffee and milk. These three types of coffee are more commonly drunk at breakfast or at bars. A cappuccino is the common breakfast drink of Italians. It is very similar to American cappuccinos, containing frothy milk and coffee. Italian espresso is extremely strong (the strongest of the coffees). Usually, if an American asks for espresso, the Italian waiter will understand and serve a regular coffee.

Espresso is predominantly associated with Italy, and attaching the "American" descriptor is unnecessary. Coffee is espresso because of how it is brewed, not where it is brewed. Caffe ristretto is strong, but not because it contains no milk. It is strong because less water is used in the brewing process. There's no support for the assertation that cappuccino is the common breakfast drink of Italians. Perhaps it would be best to leave it at the fact that cappuccinos are normally drunk at breakfast. Again, there's no need to say it's similar to American cappuccinos. The statement that espresso is the strongest of all the coffees is unsubstantiated and vague. Which coffees? All of the coffee drinks listed in this section have an espresso base. The final statement regarding an American asking for espresso and being served a regular coffee is personal observation/opinion and doesn't belong at all. A regular coffee in Italy is, in fact, an espresso. Sofia Mena 10:53, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

This has been updated. 66.183.217.31 18:25, 1 March 2007 (UTC)


[edit] Something about italian cheeses

You should include a little space about Italian cheeses as gorgonzola, fontina, mozzarella, pecorino (whereof might also describe regional variances), ricotta et cetera. The number of Italian is the most plentiful in Europe afther France. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.55.130.140 (talk • contribs)

[edit] Regional cuisine

I am working on the expansion of this section, please do not delete the extra regions as I will be expanding them in the next couple days, thanks.--Christopher Tanner, CCC 02:40, 3 August 2007 (UTC)


[edit] Some lines about Pellegrino Artusi

In my opinion, some lines about Pellegrino Artusi and his book La scienza in cucina e l'arte di mangiar bene (1891) could be intersting, because they were important for the idea of a Italian cuisine. In fact La scienza in cucina includes recipes from all the different regions of Italy that was separeted in a lot of little states until Italian unification (1861). Forgive for my bad English and thanks for consideration. --82.53.56.53 18:27, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

When I get to work on the history section for national cuisine on the article I will be including information on him.--Christopher Tanner, CCC 19:34, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Adding outside imitators and the like

I have been finding a lot of information of other cultures imitating Italian cuisine and other items from the food culture, which are unnecessary to state. Every food culture is imitated in some way in different parts of the world, Italian cuisine is no more so than any other cuisine so I think we can leave these points out.--Christopher Tanner, CCC 19:36, 3 August 2007 (UTC)


[edit] Recommendation about some orthographic mistakes

I think there are some orthographic mistakes in the article. I'm born in Arezzo, so I think the correct form of panina gialla arentina is "panina gialla aretina" (without the second letter n). Moreover "florentina", "caprese", "tarantina" and "napoletana" are common adjectives of place so their first letter is small. All the same "castrato" is a common noun, so it's wrote with small c. Also "ripiena" is an adjective so it's wrote with small r (for example "cima ripena). In Italian oxtail is translated in "coda di bue". If you want I could correct these unimportant mistakes. My Italian is better that my English :). Thank for the consideration, --82.53.56.53 21:43, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

P.S: Now the "bistecca alla florentina" usually called "bistetta alla fiorentina" (noun "florentina" is characteristic of middle Italian).

Please feel free to fix them, my Italian experience is non-existent. I honestly copied the translations from the book I was doing research from, so I would appreciate the help from an authentic Italian. Usually when I work on an article like this, with such extensive editing, I always appreciate people who edit such items.--Christopher Tanner, CCC 22:54, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

I am very happy when I can be helpful, I just fixed those imprecisions. --82.51.56.6 11:45, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

There are (or were) a lot of linguistic errors. That’s not at all a criticism of you, Christopher Tanner, CCC, we all use the best sources we can find and hope that their errors will be corrected in due time. But it does rather make one wonder about the quality of the book you were using. —Ian Spackman 11:55, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

Let me rephrase that more clearly, at the cost of being blunter. Imagine that this was an article on another aspect of Italian culture, literature, for instance—say Petrarch. Now imagine that it became clear that the source being used was written by someone who had difficulties with the Italian language. Honestly we would have to say ‘Stop! We appreciate your attempt to improve what was a very poor article, but this is not the way to do it. It will be a waste of your time and that of future editors of the Wikipedia in correcting the errors introduced. Please try to find better sources.’ hmmm —Ian Spackman 14:42, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Regional Sections

Good work expanding the article; however, the Calabria section can use help from the existing section at Calabria#Calabrian Cuisine. Mariokempes 05:46, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

Each region on here is a summary of a region, if they are to be expanded upon they should have their own well written articles with the local cuisine history and extensive information. As is I still need to put in a large amount of information of the national cuisine, the history of the national cuisine, information on restaurants, expand upon coffee/espresso, cheese, wine, possibly a section on bread, pasta and cured meats and sausages. The section currently points to the Calabria article which would give the reader the ability to read from that existing article, feel free to edit this page without making the section bigger, but at the same time using citations.--Christopher Tanner, CCC 14:17, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Unique dishes

I would like to politely ask that if you are going to add another unique dish to a section that is more unique than an existing dish in a section, remove one of the old ones. If you want to add all of your dishes add them to the List of Italian dishes or this article is just going to end up a mess of recipes which it is not intended to be. There is much more info I plan to add to this article and all these dishes will make it overly "list like".--Christopher Tanner, CCC 15:17, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

I would like to mirror this "don't go overboard with the dishes" sentiment. When I first came upon this page in early 2006 it was purely a list, which has since been moved to "List of Italian dishes". This article has come a long way with content, and I would hate to see it creep back to its old list form - AKeen 15:39, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
I think that I would go a little further and suggest removing entirely the little lists of unique dishes, incorporating them where appropriate into the prose about the region’s eating habits. —Ian Spackman 11:47, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Comments

Incorporating them into the prose would create bulky paragraphs and make them difficult and undesirable to read for some readers. As for the grammar for Italian grammar for the page that is why there are multiple editors, not just the one person writing the article. I have though in fact planned to go over more specifically my writing to make sure it all fits, sort of like writing a proper paper, but as people have jumped in that is the way it works. I do in fact have quite a bit of knowledge on the cuisine, but the language is something I must take from another book with existing titles. I removed the part on the Germanic tribes, which could've been done if contested, I should have been more specific with it but I will just remove it instead to avoid argument. I have moved the unique dishes over in a similar format to List of Italian dishes.--Christopher Tanner, CCC 16:56, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

Just an added note, I'll refrain from using the "Culinaria" book for language source as I think that was where most of the issue comes from, or better yet I will avoid attempting to write anything in Italian and one of you guys, such as Ian who obviously has a better grasp on the language than I.--Christopher Tanner, CCC 17:02, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
I wouldn’t place much trust in my Italian if I were you;) But the issue is one of the reliability of sources. To step sideways, for a moment, I have an Italian friend who extracts great comedy from reading the menus posted outside Italian restaurants in England. Sometimes it’s clear that the restaurant is simply a fake. But on other occasions it may be that the proprietor is an emigre who understands how to cook authentically but never learnt how to spell. In the case of a book, however, one tends to feel that if neither its author nor its editor has learnt to spell its culinary content may be a bit dubious. Add to that the fact that most writing about food seems to be based on absolute ignorance about anything but food (there are notable exceptions) and the only conclusion you can draw is—don’t let my pedantry put you off. You hit upon a dire article and are improving it. Good! —Ian Spackman 23:21, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
The Culinaria book I have is sorta alright, but written in a very nonacademic light. I have a book written by Waverly Root coming to me in the next few days which I have been wanting to buy for awhile and this gives me a reason. It has a good amount of history and current research on the different regions. Until then I am going to continue with the history section as the primary sources used for the research of these books is quite sound. BTW, pretty much all of the cuisine articles on Wikipedia are in bad shape, they are sort of what I plan on concentrating on for the immediate future. As I work on each one I get better ideas for organization, such as the listing of unique dishes in the way I have it formated now (hopefully you guys find it more appealing as well). As an addition, many American menus for both Italian and French cuisines are written by people who haven't a clue. --Christopher Tanner, CCC 23:38, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] GA review

I get a warm, tingly sensation when I see such massive improvements and expansions of articles on major topics like this. I am very close to passing this at first glance, but since I know we have at least one very ambitious editor working on this, I have a few concerns that I think are relevant. Mind you, these are more suggestions than absolute demands for GA status, though some are more urgent than others. In other words, I warmly welcome discussion on the validity of the criticism.

  • Historical records of the cuisine of the common people are few and very oblique before the modern period, but I seem to recall seeing at least reasonable deductions and speculation from food historians when reading on medieval and early modern cuisine. Is it possible to add such material to the history section?
I will look into what I have, most of my early peasant foodways info. comes from France and Arab regions. In the books I have on Italian food history, there is no mention of the info you have used for Medieval cuisine or which I used for French cuisine. I'll look though, perhaps the Cambridge Encyclopedia of Food History has something in it. I as yet for some dumb reason don't own that yet (could be the $300 price tag) but we have a copy at my universities' library.
  • The periodization of the history section employs general and common historical eras in the first two sub-sections, but then proceeds to numbered centuries. These seem to coincide quite well with the early modern and modern periods. Any objection to using these headings instead?
I think changing to early modern and modern is ideal.
  • "Regional cuisines" is without doubt exhausting, but it verges on the listy. Is it by any chance possible to paint this picture with somewhat broader strokes?
I had considered changing the way I did French cuisine but I feared voices on this page desiring importance of single areas.
  • "Dining out" is clearly written from a tourist's perspective (and referenced with a Lonely Planet-book). Are the proper greeting phrases and payment customs really encyclopedic enough in this context? I'm thinking primarily of Wikipedia not being a travel guide.
Proper greetings should be removed, you are correct.

*I know next to nothing about the finer points of Italian wines, but as far as I know Italy is second only to France in the prestige of its viticulture. It doesn't seem as if three sentences is quite enough to cover such an important topic.

That was something I thought about after I added the GA request, I need a section on cheeses as well.
  • There are only four sources used for the article. While I take pride in trying to judge referencing in qualitative rather than quantitative terms, this seems a tad skimpy. But I must admit this might just as well be an issue for a future featured article candidacy. Any comments?
The history comes from two books that are valid. I used that Lonely Planet thing just to get a different perspective actually. In my opinion, they are all better than using a website for citation however. I'll also have to say when writting a paper that would be this small (although this is not primary resource research) 4-5 books are generally encouraged that have high-quality information rather than that ridiculous amount of sources we ended up with on the Food article.--Chef Christopher Allen Tanner, CCC 19:36, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

Peter Isotalo 10:26, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

--Chef Christopher Allen Tanner, CCC 18:47, 18 October 2007 (UTC)
Oh, and I forgot one thing. The pics scattered throughout the article are in some cases teeny-tiny. Could they be blown up a tad for clarity? And is it possible to have a few additional photos of full-blown dishes (rather than just produce and ingredients)?
Peter Isotalo 10:33, 18 October 2007 (UTC)
Comments above were all made by myself. If you have suggestions on where you think the pictures may be appropriate, please let me know. The small pictures re there because if they were made larger they would not be in the context of the region they are fitted into. I have only my own perspective, another person's would help.--Chef Christopher Allen Tanner, CCC 18:47, 18 October 2007 (UTC)
Additional comment - I sorta thought about this all day and really thought that each of these regions could have their own article on cuisine potentially, with these merely serving as summaries. Cutting them down into regions of North/South/Mediteranean etc. would remove the entirely uniqueness that Italian cuisine has in its regionalism. Very few cuisines in the world identify themselves so strongly with regionalism and this is based possibly mostly upon the way the region's culture developed. The only other thing I could think of is to create a separate article entitled Regional cuisines of Italy and create a summary heading in this article. I would greatly welcome other's comments on this.--Chef Christopher Allen Tanner, CCC 19:34, 19 October 2007 (UTC)
This is a very convincing argument, Christopher. I'll strike that comment for now. I do remember now that the chapter on Italy in Regional Cuisines of Medieval Europe also stressed a great variety of fiercly regionalized cuisine even back in the High and Late Middle Ages. The suggestion about separate articles, or at least one article covering just the regional varieties is definitely worth pursuing, but I don't think it should affect the GA nomination. At most, it might be a future FA requirement.
Peter Isotalo 11:02, 20 October 2007 (UTC)
I am going to change it to a summary section for the next step toward FA status as the section is just too big anyways and makes the index huge.--Chef Christopher Allen Tanner, CCC 05:47, 21 October 2007 (UTC)
I think the latest additions are enough to satisfy my requests for improvement and I am therefore passing the article. The addition of a section on cheese will be a most excellent step toward featured article status, though my recommendation is to try to include this in a somewhat broader section on foods in general. A suggested set of subsections could, for example, include sections called "Meats", "Pasta", "Spices", "Vegetables", "Olive oil" or whatever seems most relevant. Along with the condensing of the section on the regional cuisines, I believe this would be quite enough to make it a fine featured article candidate.
Christopher, you are a skilled and valuable contributor. I look forward to work with you again in the future.
Peter Isotalo 12:49, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Origin of Tortellini

Hi, the article says that Tortellini are from Piacenza. As far as I know the invention of this kind of pasta is disputed between Bologna and Modena (the town of Castelfranco Emilia is said to be the hometown of Tortellini and is halfway between the two cities). maybe that section should be uptated or this information removed.

--151.96.3.241 (talk) 10:27, 22 May 2008 (UTC) Francesco