Talk:Italian Wars

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

MILHIST This article is within the scope of the Military history WikiProject. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the project and see lists of open tasks and regional and topical task forces. To use this banner, please see the full instructions.
Start This article has been rated as Start-Class on the quality scale.
Italian Wars is within the scope of WikiProject Italy, an attempt to build a comprehensive and detailed guide to articles on Italy on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, you can edit the article attached to this page, or visit the project page, where you can join the project and/or contribute to the discussion.
B This article has been rated as B-Class on the Project's quality scale.
(If you rated the article please give a short summary at comments to explain the ratings and/or to identify the strengths and weaknesses.)
Top This article has been rated as Top-importance on the importance scale.
Maintained The following user(s) are actively contributing to this article and may be able to help with questions about verification and sources:
Kirill Lokshin (talk • contribs • email)
This in no way implies article ownership; all editors are encouraged to contribute.

Someone with a good grasp of these events might expand this article, with a generous supply of Main article:... headings to blocks of text, and tie together many small articles on episodes (at "What links here" etc) within the general framework. The result? a great help to the Wikipedia reader. --Wetman 07:37, 8 September 2005 (UTC)

Contents

[edit] Which viceroy?

By 1503, Louis, having been defeated at the Battle of Cerignola and Battle of Garigliano, was forced to withdraw from Naples, which was left under the control of the Spanish viceroy, Ramon de Cardona.

Was this particular viceroy not Gonzalo Fernández de Córdoba? qp10qp 23:51, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, looks like that's a mistake, as Córdoba apparently remained as viceroy until 1507. Kirill Lokshin 00:39, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] If you don't mind . . .

If no one minds, I'd like to increase the "Italy 1494" map size here to at 250px from the recently down-sized 200px. I try to design maps and their text at a sufficient size to be read directly within the article. As I mention on my User Page, I believe that the maps should be tailored to the article so that, for example, the reader easily find specific locations (e.g. Naples) without having to click 2 or 3 times to get a map close-up.

Which is a long-winded way to saying that the map does best at 250px (or higher), so I'd like to move it up a bit in size in no one minds. MapMaster 03:55, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

Ah, sure, that seems fine; the 350px was a little wide, though. ;-) Kirill Lokshin 04:06, 27 October 2006 (UTC)


[edit] Tercio tactics?

I'm pretty sure the Spaniards weren't using Tercio tactics in the Italian wars - they were certainly putting the Arquebusiers to good effect, but Michael Howard puts the date of the reorganisation into 3000 men tercios at 1534, and Jose Gonzalez de Leon at 1536. Either way, I think the Tercios came a little later. Do you want me to perhaps do a little rewrite to accomodate this? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.20.233.135 (talk • contribs)

The early stuff was not true tercios, certainly; but the Italian Wars lasted until 1559, well into the period when the actual tercio had developed.
(Having said that, the mention of tercios in 1521 seems to be slightly anachronistic—at least without further explanation—so I've removed it.) Kirill Lokshin 23:38, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] .."sometimes known as the Great Italian Wars"

Oh please. Wargaming babble, as googling for the phrase in quotes immediately reveals. Enthusiast sites like http://www.balagan.org.uk/ to the contrary, when Sir Charles Oman uses the phrase in History of the Art of War in the Sixteenth Century it is as "the great Italian Wars", as one might say "the devastating First World War". It does not follow that we have a topic the Devastating First World War. This is irresponsible semi-literate enthusiasm. Deleted. --Wetman 03:27, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

That's doesn't seem quite right. While Oman does, indeed, use the term lowercase (and occasionally shortens it to "the great wars"), he is not using "great" as a mere descriptive adjective, but as a way of disambiguating this conflict from the variety of other things that can be termed the "Italian Wars" (including both obvious cases like the Italian War and the Italian Wars of Independence, as well as a variety of differently-named conflicts in or involving Italy). Indeed, Oman is hardly the only historian to do so. The comparison with the First World War isn't particularly meaningful, since there's no need to disambiguate; a better one would be the Great Turkish War.
(A side note: Google searches aren't all that meaningful for sixteenth-century history; wargaming sites are pretty much the only result more because of the absence of any serious historiography from the web than because the term is only a wargaming one.) Kirill Lokshin 04:39, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
Yes, how excellent! I note that in the google book search quoted above every notice there of the "great Italian wars" is in lowercase, with one exception: a quote from Great Italian Wars 1494—1544: The Wargamer's Guide. Of course, no one is denying that the fifteenth-sixteenth-century Italian Wars were a great disturbance in Italian life. But only wargamers call the Italian Wars the "Great Italian Wars" [sic]. --Wetman 09:50, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
True; but as a point of terminology, I think it ought to be mentioned (in lowercase, of course). Kirill Lokshin 13:53, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
(Incidentally, the wargaming example may not be valid either, as it's the book's title which is being noted; it may very well be used lowercase in the text itself.) Kirill Lokshin 13:57, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Holy Roman empire

The Spanish emerged as the victors. What about the Holy Roman Empire. Did they gain or lose in the war? Within a hundred years, the Holy Roman Empire would be virtually destroyed after the Peace of Westaphilia or however you spell it. Did this affect it in any way?Tourskin 02:24, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

The HRE was on the winning side, in a sense, but failed to significantly profit by it (due mostly to the way Charles V split his inheritance). The territory won in the wars wound up in Spanish hands, as did the bulk of the military advances, and the prestige of victory. The HRE, meanwhile, got saddled with a growing Catholic-Lutheran conflict (c.f. Schmalkaldic League) and the aftermath of several large Ottoman invasions, and lost out on the massive income Spain derived from her colonies.
(In some sense, the HRE was never involved on a national level in these wars; the involvement stemmed primarily from that of the Emperor himself. Once Charles abdicated, the war fell primarily to Philip; Ferdinand had little personal stake in it.) Kirill Lokshin 02:36, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] HRE as location

I don't see how specifying the HRE as a location versus "Germany" is the more helpful option here; the HRE at the time is not a monolithic or even clearly defined geographic entity, and includes both components that are already subsumed in the other listed locations (e.g. Milan, Tuscany) as well as components that had nothing to do with the wars (e.g. Bohemia). Kirill Lokshin 15:14, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Causes?

Should we perhaps add a 'causus belli' to the chart? Most battles and war articles have them.--Chopin-Ate-Liszt! 05:34, 19 October 2007 (UTC)