Talk:Italian War of 1542–1546

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[edit] Italian War?

Is it a misnomer to call this the "Italian War"? Seems like the Italian theatre of a wider war. It's an old reference, but the old edition of the Cambridge Modern History says of the war, "the alliance ... promised results, though not in Italy. The main objective this time was the Netherlands." [1]. Really just another installment in the grudge match between the Habsburgs and Valois France. --Iacobus 01:00, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

The name comes from "Italian Wars". While the term is, admittedly, a bit of a misnomer in the sense that the latter wars focused less and less on Italy itself, it is, as far as I know, the most common historical term for this series of conflicts. Kirill Lokshin 01:23, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] French numbers in 1544

I have added a note on the French effectives for the crucial campaign of 1544, they are important not only in themselves, but because they are a highwater mark for the size of the French army in the whole century. It was a short lived strain on French resources, as Francis I himself stated thatat best, his subjects could support 50.000 troops--Ignacio Arrizabalaga (talk) 20:19, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

Very interesting point. I've taken the liberty of cleaning up the footnote formatting a bit to bring it in line with the other ones in the article. Kirill 20:29, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Continued from FAC

  • It would be nice to have more markers for places. One has to peer at the map to discover that Vitry is Vitry-le-François: the link only goes to a Vitry disambiguation page; it is somewehat the same with Villefranche, whose link goes to a confusing disambiguation page, though with some difficulty I think I identified it on the right of the illustration at the top of the page: a phrase of explanation would have saved me the search time and eye strain.
    • Fixed Villefranche. Vitry is not, in fact, Vitry-le-François (which was the city as rebuilt by Francis after the war); I'll see if I can find the original name, but I'm fairly certain we don't have an article on the old one anyways. Kirill 04:01, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
Seems to be Vitry-en-Perche, or en-Perchois. If it's vanished or been built over, I suppose that's why it doesn't have an article.qp10qp (talk) 06:08, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
  • who faced a rebellion in the Low Countries. Why? What was the situation?
    • This is perhaps a personal minimalism in my writing style, but I don't think that trying to discuss—even in an over-simplified manner—the complex relationship between Charles and his Burgundian subjects is really within the scope of this article. The matter is tangential to the war itself, in any case. Kirill 04:01, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
In practice, though, this rebellion was specific to Ghent (see Revolt of Ghent) and is a precise equivalent to the tax revolt in La Rochelle.qp10qp (talk) 06:08, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
Ah, we have an article on the specific revolt? I hadn't even looked, to be honest. Kirill 10:50, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
  • The war arose from the Truce of Nice at the end of the Italian War of 1535–38. But peace arises from a truce, not a war: we need a hint as to why the truce did not hold. (Clearly, it lasted four years before the next war started.)
    • Reworded somewhat. Kirill 04:01, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
Should the terms of the truce be noted? qp10qp (talk) 06:08, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
The important aspect is the terms that were omitted—the settlement of territorial claims; I could mention the French retention of Turin, but I'm not sure it would really mean much to the reader without the context of the rest of that war. Kirill 10:50, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
  • "Treaty of Madrid". The reader needs to know the background here: the fact that Francis had been imprisoned by Charles and railroaded into this treaty may explain his unwillingness to ratify it. A mention of that background might help a reader grasp the personal history between the two men.
    • I don't know; is it really helpful to go into more detail regarding the entire history between the two? I can certainly add some details about the circumstances, but the meat of the matter—the entire chain of conflicting territorial claims between the two—would require quite a bit of text to cover in any comprehensible manner. Kirill 04:01, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
Not the entire history, just the fact that he signed it when imprisoned by Charles. I believe that is helpful; and it is interesting.qp10qp (talk) 06:08, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
Okay, fair enough. I'll see how I can work this and all the other terms-of-previous-treaties items into the article. Kirill 10:50, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
Added some material on this. Kirill 20:46, 25 January 2008 (UTC)
  • promised not to declare war. Why did Francis promise not to declare war while Charles was fighting in north Africa?
    • Done, I think, though perhaps it's a bit too cryptic. Kirill 04:01, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
At least now the reader can set that against Francis's alliance with Suleiman and the billeting of Turkish troops in Toulon. qp10qp (talk) 06:08, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
  • Francis himself was meanwhile dealing with a revolt in La Rochelle. Further to what I said about this above, it might be worth a sentence or two of context: for example, the revolt may have been planned for when Francis and his enforcers would be distracted by the war; it was about increased taxes that related to his need for money for the war; it took place in a spot with a long history of English involvement and therefore was vulnerable to an English intervention.
    • Added an explanation of the cause of the revolt; but its eruption just as the war began was mostly incidental (except in the overall sense that Francis's constant wars necessitated tax reform, which seems too far-reaching of a point to explore in great detail here). Kirill 04:01, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
I don't believe it was incidental. I believe it took place when it looked like Francis would be busy. And that for strategic reasons, he could not afford to ignore it. qp10qp (talk) 06:08, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
  • Enghien: worth mentioning that he was a Bourbon and a prince of the blood, with a brief mention of the significance of that? His title in the article disguises him slightly.
    • I'm not sure that it's worth mentioning, considering his status as such played no role in the war beyond the typical presence of the high nobility in command posts. Kirill 04:01, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
The princes of the blood were a key factor in sixteenth-century royal politics. Why else would this young man be given the command if he was not a Bourbon? The Bourbons stood ready to take over if the Valois failed; they had to be accommodated, and, in particular, they had to be accommodated in the south of France. When the Valois dynasty ended, François de Bourbon's brother was the Catholics' choice of king (Charles X), and his nephew, Henry, became the first Bourbon king. I notice that in the Battle of Ceresole article, you do call him François de Bourbon—at least at first. You name Antoine de Bourbon this way, so consistency also comes into it. Still, it is up to you. qp10qp (talk) 06:08, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
Fair enough; I hadn't noticed that I'd switched titles on him. Kirill 10:50, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
  • Ceresole: what is the strategic context? It seems to be mentioned out of the blue.
    • Added some details on that; hopefully there's no need to relate the entire series of maneuvers preceding it. Kirill 04:01, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
What was the intent of the campagn? To take Milan? qp10qp (talk) 06:08, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
Eventually (as all French campaigning in northern Italy); but, as far as I know, the immediate goal was simply to break the stalemate. Kirill 10:50, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
  • St Dizier: what is the significance of this town? It says that Charles was prevented from crossing the Marne at Jalons, but a look at the map shows that he would have been on the west of the Marne at St Dizier. The map appears to show that he was following the Marne (to meet up with Henry before moving on Paris?). The article seems to chide Francis for not doing much to stop Charles, but strategically was he doing the right thing by staying back? (Looks it to me, but this is original thought, I admit.) The comment that the French response was "nearly non-existent" seems to clash with the fact that the French prevented Charles crossing the Marne at Jalons.
    • I've tried to clarify this a bit—Charles couldn't move along the far bank of the river due to the French position—but I'm not sure if that's at all apparent from the text. The sources I've used here (Knecht, in particular) don't really consider passive garrisons to be a "response"; but I've reworded that anyways. Kirill 04:01, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
I think at this stage in military history, fortified garrisons were very much a response. Especially if they were difficult to take or kept an army on the other side of a river. Look at what Montreuil did to the English; and that was no accident (it had recently been re-fortified). The English garrison proved unshiftable once in Boulogne, despite the size of the French army. qp10qp (talk) 06:08, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
  • Charles had meanwhile reached an understanding with the princes at the Diet of Speyer, and the Electors of Saxony and Brandenburg agreed to join his invasion of France. What was the basis of the understanding, given Charles's religious differences with the rulers of Saxony and Hesse? What did he concede?
    • As with the rebellions in the Low Countries, I don't really think this article is the best place to go into the details of Charles's religious policies in Germany. Kirill 04:01, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
Except that this war takes place at a key moment in the Reformation, as the terms of Crépy indicate. qp10qp (talk) 06:08, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
  • The Dauphin's army descended on Montreuil, forcing Norfolk to raise the siege. When was this?
    • Not quite sure, other than that it was before September; I'll see if I can find a more specific range of dates. Kirill 04:01, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
On further looking, September 28—not that it matters much, I suppose. I just wanted to see how it timed with Henry's departure (simultaneous, it seems). The wording here perhaps could be clarified, because Norfolk withdrew on hearing of the Dauphin's approach (I'm not sure "descended on" makes that clear). qp10qp (talk) 06:08, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
Changed. Kirill 10:50, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
  • the Emperor would relinquish his claim to the Duchy of Burgundy and the King of France would do the same for the Kingdom of Naples, as well as renouncing his claims as suzerain of Flanders and Artois. This is the first we've heard of these dimensions to the war. Is Charles's claim to Burgundy the reason why he attacks Francis in that part of France?
    • See my comment above regarding the details of the territorial claims; I'm not sure how much of this needs to be rehashed in each of the war articles in this series. Kirill 04:01, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
But it is not satisfying to find out what the war was partly about once it is over. "Rehashed" isn't the word, in my opinion, since readers may come to the articles individually; I haven't read the earlier ones. qp10qp (talk) 06:08, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
Noted; see above. Kirill 10:50, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
Mentioned in the article now, albeit briefly; the link to the Treaty of Madrid is hopefully sufficient for anyone looking for a blow-by-blow description. Kirill 20:46, 25 January 2008 (UTC)
  • Not clear on the strategy of the siege of Perpignan. The article talks of an offensive. The lead talks of an attempted invasion of Spain, but this is not followed up in the article anywhere. I assume Francis wanted it back, since it had belonged to France in the past. qp10qp (talk) 06:08, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
    • Presumably the French were hoping to fight the war on enemy territory rather than their own. The sieges of border fortresses are pretty ubiquitous; I'm not sure whether it was intended to be a strategic goal in its own right beyond that. Kirill 10:50, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
  • What were Francis's aims in Piedmont? One presumes he was moving on Milan. I'm surprised that Milan isn't mentioned in the lead, since it is the mother issue of the Italian wars, after all. (I don't agree with you that the war doesn't need a larger context.) The article doesn't mention Charles's appointment of his son Philip as duke of Milan in 1540, a provocative gesture that did as much as anything to destroy the goodwill that enabled Charles's visit to France. qp10qp (talk) 06:08, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
    • I'll see if I can clarify the Milan issue. Kirill 10:50, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
Added some mentions of this. Kirill 20:46, 25 January 2008 (UTC)
  • Who is Jeanne d'Albret? (The reader may not know.) qp10qp (talk) 06:08, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
    • Done. Kirill 10:50, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
  • The League demurred. Why? I presume because of Francis's treatment of French Protestants: the Protestant German princes (by the way, should the readers be told what the Schmalkaldic League was?) were in thrall to their reforming theologians. (Wilhelm of Cleves is a different case, more interested in his private territorial claims: he is not one of the hardcore north-east German Protestant nobility.) qp10qp (talk) 06:08, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
    • That's part of the reason, and is mentioned in the accompanying footnote; should it be brought out to the main text? The other aspect of this is Francis's poor record when it came to helping his allies (cf. the League of Cognac). Kirill 10:50, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
  • by 1542, all of the potential French allies in northern Germany had reached their own understandings with the Emperor. Except that we have just been told that Wilhelm married Jeanne d'Albret. qp10qp (talk) 06:08, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
    • Oops. Reworded. Kirill 10:50, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
  • Francis's words "an injury so great..." etc. cry out to be placed in the main text, in my opinion, since they are vivid and voice one of his stated reasons for going to war. qp10qp (talk) 06:08, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
    • I'll see if I can work that into the text itself. Kirill 10:50, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
Done. Kirill 20:46, 25 January 2008 (UTC)
  • By this point, relations between Francis and Henry VIII had collapsed. Henry—already angered by the French refusal to pay the various pensions, which were owed to him under the terms of past treaties—was now faced with the potential of French interference in Scotland, where he was entangled in the midst of his "Rough Wooing". If by "by this point", you mean when Francis was dealing with the La Rochelle revolt, this is not so. The "Rough wooing" started at the earliest in late 1543. qp10qp (talk) 06:08, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
    • I'll see if I can reword this; I'd intended to say that Henry was pursuing his political goals in Scotland, not that the military action had started. This goes back to your earlier comment about the Scottish affair lacking context, incidentally. Kirill 10:50, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
Clarified, hopefully. Kirill 20:46, 25 January 2008 (UTC)
  • We have nothing about the nature of the warfare itself: the fortification of St Dizier by Marini is touched on, but should this be linked to the changes in fortification styles (the Italian trace, and so forth) during this period, which made it harder and harder for field armies to move freely and produce decisive results? In terms of the fighting, we are given clues as to the proportions of artillery to cavalry but not their significance to the evolution of warfare, which was increasingly prone to stalemates. The rising cost of warfare, particularly the expense of sieges, on the one hand, and fortification on the other, was surely a reason for Crépy. qp10qp (talk) 06:08, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
    • Indeed; as the "Aftermath" mentions, the whole affair was very expensive. This was mostly a matter of keeping a large army in the field for an extended period of time—which long sieges were obviously doing. Kirill 10:50, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
  • the French fleet soon returned to Boulogne. Were they blockading Boulogne? qp10qp (talk) 06:08, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
    • Yes; noted in the article now. Kirill 10:50, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
  • He was not, therefore, in a position to assist the German Protestants, who were now engaged in the Schmalkaldic War against the Emperor; by the time any French aid was to be forthcoming. But did did he ever intend to assist them (they hadn't assisted him in the war). Did not the secret agreement part of Crépy include Francis's commitment to assist Charles against the German Protestants? qp10qp (talk) 06:08, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
    • Francis was not exactly known for keeping the terms of his agreements with Charles, of course. Knecht writes that "In November [1546], Annebault declared that the imperial alliance needed to be preserved at all costs, regardless of the Protestants. By January 1547, however, the military situation had become so ominous for the Protestants that Francis saw the need to strengthen their hand" (518). Perhaps this should be noted in the article, either directly or in a footnote. Kirill 10:50, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
Added in footnote. Kirill 20:46, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

Well, it's a bit late for it now, but I was going to support. Congratulations on the star. qp10qp (talk) 06:08, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

Thanks! This is by far the most thorough review one of my articles has received, incidentally; thank you very much for taking the time to go through it. Kirill 10:50, 23 January 2008 (UTC)