Talk:Italian Campaign (World War II)

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

MILHIST This article is within the scope of the Military history WikiProject. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the project and see lists of open tasks and regional and topical task forces. To use this banner, please see the full instructions.
B This article has been rated as B-Class on the quality scale.
Please help improve this article or section by expanding it.
Further information might be found on the talk page or at requests for expansion. (January 2007)

Contents

[edit] New books sugestions on the subject

Hi, here Cybershore. Thank you for call attention for this point (as much as I can only comment the edits did by myself) I´ve tried to put referring bibliography, english editions of course, that contains quotations direct related to the "original" text of wikipedia without as possible alter this one. The intention is to provide the online reader access to check information reasserting and contraditory ones without pollute the wikipedia text. When possible the more proper page(s) or Chapter(s) are quoted to save time to reader but beyond I repeat that no book can contain alone all satisfactory explanations about complex facts as the historic ones I strongly believe that a Intelligent and Nonsluggish or Nonlazy reader with a minimal interest and/or knowledge on the subject can find easily by him(her)self on table of contents of each book quoted the exactly point related to the footnote and most important of all take his(her) own conclusions. I´ve also tried to focus just on books easily reasearchables on internet to find, buy and some classics widely used on militar and political studies about this subject.

I'm afraid I cannot agree to assume that the readers are lazy if they resent sifting through the index and contents to find a reference!. I am definitely lazy by that definition. If you read any serious academic book, the convention is always to quote the the page or pages referred to. I would suggest it is more a reflection of the laziness of the writer who cannot provide a specific reference. The fact is Wikipedia requires that entries contain no original research. Therefore all content should theoretically have its origin from a credible publication elsewhere. Consequently, all facts in the entry should be verifiable from specific locations in one or more books. But let's not get too heavy about this.....
By the way, a small point: when starting a new discussion item, could you do so at the bottom of the page? It just makes it easier later when the page needs archiving if the entries are in date order from top to bottom.Stephen Kirrage talk - contribs 18:26, 20 December 2007 (UTC)


I´ve post some new titles on bibliography but I´m feel still confused about how to contact the others members to chat about. Have anyone a direct link to ? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Cybershore (talk • contribs) 00:14, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

Hi. Not quite sure what you mean. If you want to discuss an issue about this article, just do it on this talk page. Stephen Kirrage talk - contribs 00:51, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Guys, Theres is no Glory in the War...

...Much least on tryings on AfterWars in enhancing one or another country specifically in detriment of other(s). Sometimes its came disguised under a facade of presumable objectivness. As a non Angle-Saxon I believe its countyer-productive this apparent discussion between americans and (white) british that I had observed on the last days through constants and opposites Gottic Line´s file atualizations.

That´s really a Pity the past century didn´t get inoculated us against acerbated nationalism, under any disguise.

I like repeat to the conflitant parts that History are not exact as Nature Sciences, even on these the knowledge are not statical and also Military ( mainly on Tatical and Strategical Aspects )in sense of a Science are more a Social one considering a lot of Art and Luck on it. We can never forget that, remembering Somme and Verdun ( just to mention only 2 events ), must to be constantly prevented against Specialists on War and Political Matters, too important to rely Just on their hands...

It´s fair easy from a confortable position on a warm Office HeadQuartter or Academic one far away on a space and in a time from a cool, bloody and durty battle field to say anything. So thats the Why understand the deleted reinsertions of certain patches. For Example : Anyone who had read, Reread, view, Review testimonies or talked personally with germans and italians ( partisans) veterans of Italy Campaign know that Surrender to Partisans means assured death sometimes preceded by torturing and humilation and the natural Partisans´s desire of revenge were specially high on the last days of war. So, germans surrender to guerillas was a completely out of question business.

When you sum to it the reading of different authors : Bingo - its not necessary be a genyous to get the most presumable assertions about.

I also mention how would be a TragicComic thing i.e. for a author to be put face to face with descendents from all those wered killed or severed wounded in combat on last days of war and see this author trying explain to them and to survivors and still alive vets that in accordance with his theories or what he heared about or read about what they saw, suffered and hear are not possible. Come on... give a Break !

To conclude I never tired of to repeat that its unprescindable to anyone who would make a history work checking and crossing of inumerous as possible fonts as possible not just rely on the officials and specialis but too on those ordinary people whom saw and suffer the events related.

Thank You All

[edit] Archives

2004-2006

I´ve had see to much focus on the british side of the history based on just one book —Preceding unsigned comment added by 201.37.150.231 (talk) 23:20, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Casualties

To make it clear: in the opening paragraph it says that 110 000 Germans lost their lives in this theater. My assumption is that this number refers to the Axis - Italians and Germans. If it is not so (which I doubt), than why are the Italian casualties not mention in the beginning? I hope someone with more knowledge on this matter than me will straighten this out. With respect, Ko Soi IX 10:57, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

The referenced footnote is very specific referring only to German troops. I imagine that the Allied figure does not include Italian casualties either since the Italian troops fighting with the 5th and 8th Armies were technically "co-belligerents" and not "allies" (apparently it made sense in 1943 but I'm not sure what that means!). However, by 1945 there were 2 Italian divisions fighting on the Axis side (out of a total of say 20+) and were mainly in the west because Kesselring didn't trust them so I suspect that Italian casualties were quite low on the Axis side. On Allied side it took time to build up (re-equip, retrain etc) but there were the equivalent of 3 brigades (say 1 Division out of 20 ish) plus some more irregular formations by 1945. It appears they were then often in the thick of fighting but given the relative size and the shorter period they were involved I would guess that casualties would have been in the order of 5% of thge Allied total. Now I need to find some references!!Stephen Kirrage talk - contribs 12:54, 4 February 2007 (UTC)
I do not agree with this numbers too. There is an other book (inthe article) that cites that during the italian camapaign allied took 56.000 dead by all causes. There is another webpage about the german army from 1939-1945 that shows the number of german killed in action as 47,000 until 1945.(Five months aprox before the war ended).

I recomend to remove that citation after a reliable source is found or at least show in the article 2 or more sources of killed soldiers per side apart. best wishes , Miguel

[edit] Primary Strategic Goal

The main strategic goal behind operations in the Mediterranean was preserving communication between Britain and her eastern dominions, was it not? For example, that's what Churchill wrote in his Second World War. Tying down (some) German forces sound like revisionism to me. With respect, Ko Soi IX 11:07, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

I agree, the tying down rationale only came later, after Italy surrendered. The suspicion is that Churchill always had an agenda but at the end of the day, by 1943, he could do nothing without Roosevelt's say so and it was Roosevelt who ultimately determined what happened with Churchill constantly trying to sway him. I've made an edit to reflect some of this (with appropriate footnotes)Stephen Kirrage talk - contribs 12:59, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] A question for the British experts.

Nobody knows how the meeting between king Victor Emanuel III and the British 8th army did happen in Brindisi on September 11, 1943. Was it similar to the meeting between Mac Arthur and Hirohito in 1945? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.150.113.171 (talk • contribs)

[edit] Article organisation

At the prompting of Oberiko I have been giving the structure of the various Italian campaign articles and campaignboxes some thought. In particular I am finally addressing the thorny subject of the Winter Line and its varying definitions in different sources. I am proposing to do the following:

  1. Use Winter line as the collective description of the Bernhardt, Gustav and Hitler Lines (this seems to be the commonest in the literature)
  2. Take all of the text regarding the fighting on the Bernhardt Line from the Winter Line article and integrate it into the Bernhardt Line article (more logical)
  3. Winter Line article becomes a summary description page pointing to other main articles
  4. Remove Winter Line from the Italian Campaignbox and insert Bernhardt Line, also replace Cassino and Anzio so that all major actions of the campaign are in it making a continuous timeline. Make sure it is in all articles relating to the Italian campaign
  5. Retain Oberiko's new Winter Line campaignbox in the articles relating to events on the various elements of the Winter Line. This will highlight some of the minor events (San Pietro, Ortona) not in the main Campaignbox. Keep Anzio in it (not techinically part of the Winter Line) and rename the campaignbox "Winter Line and the Battle for Rome".
  6. Consider splitting the Gothic Line article. It is pretty long and covers two distinct phases of the campaign in northern Italy: 1. the Autumn 1944 assaults on the Gothic line and central Apennines and 2. the Spring 1945 assaults into the Lombardy Plain and the Po valley.
  7. Consider having a new sub campaignbox for the northern Italian phase to perform the same role as the Winter Line Campaignbox

Regards Stephen Kirrage talk - contribs 10:06, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

Your points seem quite valid Kirrages. IMO, the first thing we should decide are the "phases" of the Italian Campaign. I'm no expert but they seem to be:
  • Sicily
  • Invasion of Italy
  • Battles around the Winter and supporting lines
  • Battles around the Gothic and supporting lines
  • Surrender of German forces in Italy
Are these feasible? Oberiko 11:30, 5 July 2007 (UTC)
Not quite sure what you want to define phases for. It's quite difficult to "phase" the campaign anyway. Obviously Sicily was separate but after the landings on the mainland in September it was a constant grind until after the third battle at Cassino when there was a pause (both at Anzio and on the Gustav Line) until better spring weather. Within this grind there tended to be alternating fighting between the Adriatic front and the western side of the Apennines. In Spring 44 the grind continued after the breakout from Cassino and Anzio until the Gothic Line was reached. There was then the briefest of pauses for reorganisation (switching forces to the Adriatic front) and then the grind continued until weather stopped the fighting around the end of the year because of the weather. In April 45 the fighting re-commenced with the Allies breaking through and precipitating the Germans' surrender in Italy in early May.

If you really want phases, I would suggest they are:

  • Sicily
  • Invasion and the capture of southern Italy
  • The battles of the rivers. (this takes us from the Volturno to the Garigliano on the western front and includes Volturno, Barbara and Bernhardt lines and the first three Cassinos. On the Adriatic front it's the rivers Bifurno, Trigno and Sangro taking in Volturno, Barbera and Gustav Lines)
  • Breakout at Cassino and Anzio: the battle for Rome and Central Italy
  • Gustav Line and the autumn campaign 1944
  • Spring offensive 1945 and surrender

Stephen Kirrage talk - contribs 12:33, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

Typically I try to break down phases for the main article headings. Though if it was basically one (mostly) continuous grind then we probably don't actually need to break down the campaign box then, and can stick with the one for all battles and operations in the campaign (I don't think we'll face the same problem as the Soviet-German War with it growing to monstrous proportions). If we do that though, I'd like to remove the defensive lines from it and place them in their own template; they do not represent battles or operations per say, though we can describe the actions around them within their respective articles. I think that's what threw me off the first time. Oberiko 12:49, 5 July 2007 (UTC)


I can't see how we can remove the defensive lines. Each defensive line represented a battle (or several actions) to breach the positions and then exploit which was followed generally by a re-grouping before attacking the next line - and that is how the main battle articles are structured, either as a landing or a line (except the Gustav and Hitler lines are in the Cassino article because it is Cassino rather than Gustav which is in general usage worldwide and Caesar C is in Anzio for the same reason - although the spring 45 operations at Anzio could be split out into a separate article, but I don't think that is called for). This structure gives a nice progression and easy to follow timeline in the campaignbox. Are you suggesting there should be a templated article for each line and a separate "Battle of (X line)" article as well? Seems a bit drastic and a lot of hard work! Stephen Kirrage talk - contribs 15:37, 5 July 2007 (UTC)
It would seem that I'm poorly educated on the Italian Campaign, bear with me as I try to muddle this through. Right now it seems that we've got both the lines and the battles/operations around those lines in the same template. This, to me, is like having a super/sub set within the same campaign box, which I think could be broken down (which is why I initially moved the combat around the Winter Line). Each line is, in a way, the "parent" article of numerous battles/operations.
How about this? What if we were to keep all the lines and battles/operations in one template, but find a way to create dividers within the template itself (Something like: Winter Line - San Pietro, Ortona, Monte Cassino, Anzio; Gothic Line - Battle 1, Battle 2...) Oberiko 15:58, 5 July 2007 (UTC)


Yeah. I had a quick fiddle with the standard campaignbox template to achieve this but it doesn't look very good (you can have a look for yourself in my sandbox). Not to say it couldn't be improved with more work. I still like your original idea of a sub campaignboxes grouping logical operations together although this goes with excluding the smaller articles (Ortona, San Pietro, Gemano) from the main Italian campaignbox - which won't necessarily please everyone. Stephen Kirrage talk - contribs 17:01, 5 July 2007 (UTC)


I've done #1-4 in my list above because it was uncontrovertial. I'm also thinking about splitting the Gothic Line article but I'm leaving the rest whilst we decide what to do about the campaignbox(es) design. Stephen Kirrage talk - contribs 18:07, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

 
Italian Campaign of World War II
How about this? It's a little spacey, but if it can be filled up with more of the battles / actions (including the minor ones that merit articles) it should look alright. Oberiko 18:26, 5 July 2007 (UTC)


I like it! My comments would be:

  • Battles at the Winter Line and Rome should be The Battles for Rome and Central Italy (The Cassino and Anzio combination is often referred to in the bibliography as the battle for Rome. Trasimene Line was well north of Rome and so not part of the Winter Line or Rome battles but the Central Italy name for the fighting in June and July north of Rome is widely used in the bibliography. Bernhardt Line was part of the Winter Line and is (correctly I think) in the previous section, so let's omit WL from this section title.)
  • San Pietro should be the last item in the Advance to the Winter Line section because it was an action forming part of the Bernhardt Line battle
  • I better get working on the Gothic Line article split!!

Stephen Kirrage talk - contribs 19:23, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

Since we're defining the Winter Line as Gustov + Bernhardt + Adolf Hitler lines, then shouldn't the Berhhardt Line and Battle of San Pietro be considered part of the action around the Winter Line, Rome and Central Italy?
It would also appear, to me, that we could probably even merge Volturno and Barbara lines with the Winter Line, as their primary purpose seemed to be to stall the Allies from reaching the Winter Line itself. Theyy only took up about a month each so I also wouldn't consider them quite up to the same scope as the other stages of the campaign. Oberiko 19:39, 5 July 2007 (UTC)
Your point 1. Technically yes although the Allies saw the Bernhardt action as part of the approach to the Gustav and so a continuation of the Volturno and Barbara phase they didn't neccessarily use the German's definition at the time...). You can argue it either way.....I had it in the approach section because of the phasing argument and because the Rome and Central Italy section was already quite full (OK, not the best reason!)
Your point 2: Absolutely not! Volturno and Barbara were major actions with significant casualties (the US alone had 10,000 battle casualties getting from the Volturno to the starting point of Bernhardt). It's just that nobody has got round to writing much about them yet. Leave them as they are and hopefully someone will fill them out...a year ago the Gothic Line article looked a bit like the Barbara Line one.
I've split out and created a Spring 45 article Stephen Kirrage talk - contribs 20:21, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Recent edits on section 5

Hi, I´m cybershore. The confusion and the mispatch on this subject I´ve founded over many books and another references that I´ve read, saw and debate on the last 25 years. I tried not to base on only one reference no matter how good is seems to be. I´ve cross information over books written and/or military files as Documentaries did by americans, british, germans and brazilians by/and or/and about or/and with militars who : A)stood there - italian front - on command or near at command positions of V American Army and/or VIII British Army or Units incorpored them; B)Academics, Profissional Writers or just Amateurs like me who love the subject; C)Veterans who follow the militar carrier after the war but were non Hiofficials at time; D)Veterans who back to civillian life after the war. After I tried eliminate the inconsistences, contradictions over the writings, testimonies and let just the essential ( not detailed at the point to tired the public in general ) about the coincident points. I hope have time to colaborate more on future

I see that Cybershore has reinstated the revert I made earlier. Perhaps it might help if explained my original revert:

  • Heading: What's wrong with "final stages"? The replacement heading "Apenine Campaign" is mis-spelt and is confusing since the armies had been fighting in the Apennines since late 1943.
  • Edit to {{main}} turns a perfectly good blue link into a red one
  • Introduction of irrelevent reference to Russian front and reference to Italian campaign as "third theater of importance" is POV
  • The reference to "Experienced British and Americans units as the French Colonial Troops were pulled out of Italy to participate in France campaign. Those units were just partially substituted by Brazilians & Americans Units." is a) not English b) anachronistic because it confuses the withdrawal in '44 of US and French troops for the south of France invasion with the '45 withdrawal of Canadian and British troops to NW France and Greece c) They weren't just French Colonial Troops but included French nationals. The existing wording is precise regarding the earlier event and links to Operation Dragoon.
  • The breakthrough did not take place until April 45 not March.
  • The delay of the advance in the Netherlands had little impact on Eastern Europe because the final spheres of influence for this front had already been agreed between the Allied leaders
  • The advance by US 10th Mountain Div and the Brazilians in Jan / Feb 45 did not take the "last germans positions on Apenines". Final breaking through the Appenines was accomplished by US II Corps in bloody fighting in April. The Feb attack was a limited one to confuse the Germans into thinking the main thrust would be coming from further west than it did (Blaxland p.244). It did not " liberating the way to VIII British Army take Bologne and prepare the path to final spring offensive that occured in April" Bologna was liberated in April by a double thrust from the Poles in 8th Army and US II Corps in 5th Army.
  • The {fact} tag has been shifted from its relevant place (relating to partisans).

In addition to the above criticisms, the new edit is not compatible and is at odds with the narrative of the underlying main articles and is poorly written whilst the previous text provided a well-written and balanced summary of events.

Finally, please do not take this as a personal attack. When reading the above rather than hearing such arguments face to face it is easy to misread the "tone" and spirit in which they are offered (which is intended to be friendly but realistic).

For the above reasons I propose to revert to the previous wording subject to further discussion here. Stephen Kirrage talk - contribs 00:32, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

I've now re-written the section to reflect the above and incorporate relevant recent edits. Hope this is siutable. Regards Stephen Kirrage talk - contribs 11:31, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Recent edits on Section 5 (2): open discussion

I'm having a lot of difficulties on the recent edits made by an IP contributor. I truly welcome contributions from editors whose first language is not English since they often give an extra viewpoint to articles which are Anglo-Saxon orientated. I'm sure this contributor is trying to do that. However:

  • In the above spirit I have taken the edits and tried to turn them into flowing English although I have to say that much of the time it is difficult to make real sense of what the contributor is trying to say because, quite honestly, the English is so poor. Some appear POV but that may just be a language difficulty thing.
  • Also in order not to appear arrogant (I'm not, really!) I have retained a lot of detail in the article which, since this is supposed to be an overview of the campaign, should not really appear here but in other articles. For instance a lot of detail specific to the Brazilian Expeditionary Force (1 division out of about 20 Allied divisions involved) now appears which should really be confined to the BEF article.
  • The editor's wikipedia etiquette is lacking: existing contributions which have precise references to specific page numbers in cited books are habitually deleted or substituted with other text with broad and imprecise references to books (no page number referenced) and websites. These deletions are made with no justification in the edit summary, nor, when repeated, explained on the talk page. This is just plain rude and lacks respect

Please could we follow the Wikipedia ground rules? I am going to revert the recent deletions and request that you justify them here in the talk page if you want to reinstate any of them. Stephen Kirrage talk - contribs 19:01, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

The recent mute revert made today even reinstated the spelling mistakes I had carefully corrected! Please don't do this without some comment here. Stephen Kirrage talk - contribs 10:30, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Guys, Theres is no Glory in the War...

...Much least on tryings on AfterWars in enhancing one or another country specifically in detriment of other(s). Sometimes its came disguised under a facade of presumable objectivness. As a non Angle-Saxon I believe its countyer-productive this apparent discussion between americans and (white) british that I had observed on the last days through constants and opposites Gottic Line´s file atualizations.

That´s really a Pity the past century didn´t get inoculated us against acerbated nationalism, under any disguise.

I like repeat to the conflitant parts that History are not exact as Nature Sciences, even on these the knowledge are not statical and also Military ( mainly on Tatical and Strategical Aspects )in sense of a Science are more a Social one considering a lot of Art and Luck on it. We can never forget that, remembering Somme and Verdun ( just to mention only 2 events ), must to be constantly prevented against Specialists on War and Political Matters, too important to rely Just on their hands...

It´s fair easy from a confortable position on a warm Office HeadQuartter or Academic one far away on a space and in a time from a cool, bloody and durty battle field to say anything. So thats the Why understand the deleted reinsertions of certain patches. For Example : Anyone who had read, Reread, view, Review testimonies or talked personally with germans and italians ( partisans) veterans of Italy Campaign know that Surrender to Partisans means assured death sometimes preceded by torturing and humilation and the natural Partisans´s desire of revenge were specially high on the last days of war. So, germans surrender to guerillas was a completely out of question business.

When you sum to it the reading of different authors : Bingo - its not necessary be a genyous to get the most presumable assertions about.

I also mention how would be a TragicComic thing i.e. for a author to be put face to face with descendents from all those wered killed or severed wounded in combat on last days of war and see this author trying explain to them and to survivors and still alive vets that in accordance with his theories or what he heared about or read about what they saw, suffered and hear are not possible. Come on... give a Break !

To conclude I never tired of to repeat that its unprescindable to anyone who would make a history work checking and crossing of inumerous as possible fonts as possible not just rely on the officials and specialis but too on those ordinary people whom saw and suffer the events related.

Thank You All


Thanks for the above....I think I understand.....but I am concerned less about philosophy and more about practicalities namely:
  • You are an active contributor (terrific, I encourage you in this) but you make no explanation in the edit summary or talk page when your edits are challenged. Wikipedia guidelines encourage editors always to fill in the edit summary to minimise confusion between editors interested in the article.
  • Wikipedia also requires consensus and disagreements must be discussed on the talk page and resolved amicably (see Wikipedia:Dispute resolution and Wikipedia faux pas
  • Wikipedia etiquette asks that when contributing to talk pages you log in and sign your contributions. You can do this easily by typing four tildes (~~~~) at the end of your typing.
Please take this in a positive and friendly spirit. Regards Stephen Kirrage talk - contribs 01:23, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] I surrender to the revisionists

I can't keep up with all the weird pro-Italian fractured English edits to the WWII Italian related articles. I surrender. It feels like a war all in itself. Rob Banzai (talk) 00:11, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Footnote references

A lot of new footnote references have been put in recently which is terrific. However, what is not terrific is that many have no associated page numbers. Putting a footnote in with no page number means you are saying "Here's a fact, you can find it somewhere in this 500 page book". Since footnotes are there to satisfy Wikipedia's requirements that facts are "verifiable", having no page number is not very helpful to the verification process!

  • Where I have a copy of the book, I have been trying to insert appropriate page numbers
  • Where I don't have the book I am deleting the reference if there is another appropriate reference alongside. If there isn't, I try to find an alternative reference with a page number.
  • For single references with no page number where I have failed to find a suitable alternative, I am leaving it in but ask here if someone with a copy of the book could look it up and insert the appropriate page number.

Regards Stephen Kirrage talk - contribs 12:24, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Framework pt. 2

Revisiting this, I'd like to purpose a (slightly) new suggestion for the article framework:

  • Background
  • The campaign
    • Invasion of Sicily
    • Invasion of southern Italy
    • Allied advance to Rome
    • Allied push to northern Italy
  • Aftermath

While it's basically the same as what's already on the page, I think it will be easier for the readers to immediately grasp what each section is about (easier to understand for the uninitiated then the various defensive lines). Oberiko (talk) 01:57, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

I like the idea of "The campaign" heading but don't see that the re-naming of the segments adds much.... but I don't feel that strongly about it either. Stephen Kirrage talk - contribs 09:27, 5 February 2008 (UTC)