Talk:Italian Argentine
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[edit] "European" way of life
What does that mean? Europe is a very diverse continent. People from Portugal do not have the same culture of people from Finland.
By the way, all Latin America has an "European" life style, since the indigenous culture has been in large part destroyed by the Europeans. Opinoso (talk) 03:16, 9 March 2008 (UTC)
- Actually, Majority of all Latin American nation, except Argentina and Uruguay, have a mixed culture of European, Indigenous, and African. Indigenous culture was not completely destroyed, it merged with the Spanish/Portuguese culture of the Conquistadors, in the same time the white, indigenous, and the African slaves were interbreeding to create the Mestizos, Mulatos, Zambos, ect. Argentina and Uruguay are predominantly European in Culture compare to the rest of Latin America because of the massive European immigration that came to these countries. If you compare Argentina and Uruguay to the rest of Latin America, Argentina and Uruguay are more European. Lehoiberri (talk) 03:27, 9 March 2008 (UTC)
The way of life of modern Argentina was not brought by the European immigrants. Most immigrants were poor illiterate peasants. They had nothing to do with what Argentina is now. Argentina's government influenced its people to follow a more "civilized" life. Argentinean way of life is more a government influence than direct European one.
Argentine way of life has nothing to do with Italian or Spanish. It looks more French than anything else. People going to a cafeteria to read newspapers and wearing formal clothes most of time is common in Argentina. In Spain and Italy people do not do that.
Argentine culture was influenced by its government who tried to civilized its people, not brought by the illitarated Italian immigrants. Opinoso (talk) 19:38, 9 March 2008 (UTC)
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- Opinoso, Lehoberri is not saying that Argentina does not have african or indigenous roots, it actually has but in a lesser degree than other countries of latin america. The main contribution of Argentina's culture has been the european, remember that Argentina, along with other countries, recieved massive immigration from europe, mainly from Italy and Spain and different parts of europe, that created a substantial influx between these cultures. You said that argentina's way of life has nothing to do with italy and spain, you are totally wrong as a matter of fact the country has very notable italian customs in food, family, etc.
- Besise, the goverment did not influenced the people if not it influenced immigration to civilize and to diminish indigenous influences (see immigration in Argentina). About the immigrants that were "illiterate peasents" yes you are right they were in a severeal condition of poverty but they still had their culture and they contributed it to the country creating the Argentina of today.
- Fercho85 06:38, 10 March 2008 (UTC)
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- Opinoso, by seeing your contribution, I believe you are Brazilian or Portuguese. Let me bring up your comment on "poor illiterate peasants", The Southern Brazilian States (Parana, Santa Catarina, and Rio Grande do Sul) were settled by poor illiterate Italian and German immigrants, yet they were able to maintain there old world culture. And also, if a Government has the power to change a country's culture, then why didn't the Brazilian government of the past forced the poor illiterate Italian and German immigrants to adopt the culture of Rio de Janeiro. You are right when you say that Argentina's culture is similar to France, but it seem you fail to notice the Spanish and Italian influences. Like Fercho85 said, Argentinian cuisine had alot of Italian influences. I might add, Argentinian Spanish is spoken in an slight Italian accent. Even the British influenced Argentinian culture. Argentinian culture is predominantly European, there are small influences of the Indigenous and Africans, but it is not very visible compare to other Latin American countries. You mention Tango, you are right that it has roots to African slaves, but the European immigrants took Milonga (the original African Tango) and transformed it into its current form. Tango music has more European influences especially the main instrument of Tango music, the Bandoneon, is from Germany. And lastly, you mention the Gaucho, Gauchos are a minority in Argentina, and they are usually Mesizos. How people associate the Gauchos with Argentina is similar how people associate Cowboys with Texas. Majority of Argentines are not Gauchos just like majority of Texans are not Cowboys. Lehoiberri (talk) 16:22, 10 March 2008 (UTC)
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- I am not saying Argentina is not predominantly European in culture; of course it is, I have already been to Argentina. Of course it has Italian influence in its food, language, etc.
However, I don't believe that nowadays Argentina's way of life is a direct Italian influence. As I said, nowadays Argentina looks more French in culture than Italian or Spanish. In Argentina people wear suit and tie all day long and read newspapers in a cafe. These attitudes do not seem influences of illiterate immigrants, but more an external influence.
Remember that in Latin countries, including Brazil, Portugal, Argentina, etc, and even in the United States, French way of life always had a great influence in these country's "elite". I mean, French clothes, books, fashion were considered "chic" and were embraced by the elite of various countries. 30 years ago people used to study French language in Brazilian schools.
Again, the modern Argentine way of life, which may look "European", is probably not a direct contribution of the poor illiterate immigrants, but a post-immigration trend, when Argentines started to copy an uper-class "European" way of life.
By the way, I do not believe this European atmosphere in Argentina makes Argentina so different from the rest of Latin America as this article was trying to sell. Argentina is closer to the rest of Latin America than to Europe. Not only in culture, but the way of being and the condition of the Argentine economy, as many Argentines live in poverty (38% of Argentines live below poverty line). [1]
Definitely, Argentina is not an European country lost in South America as this article is trying to sell. Argentina is an integral part of Latin America in many ways: culture, language and social conditions. Opinoso (talk) 17:12, 10 March 2008 (UTC)
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- No, of course argentina is not an european country in south america perhaps it was, but 60 years ago not now. Besise I am not saying that is not an integral part of latin america absolutly not, the current political, poverty and economical condition of nowadays, links argentina directly with latin america because it is a third world country.
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- My point is that I do not believe that the people or the lifestyle (remember that argentina has the highest HDI of latin america) or even the language, as you said, of the argentinians are the same as the people of Mexico, or Panama or Peru because their cultures and traditions are very different, it is as you were comparing Japan with Africa, the country rather looks alike to uruguay or chile that is to say the southern cone, because their history and customs are very similar, but not with the rest of latin america, the continent itself has a lot of social contrasts which varies within the countries you visit.
- Fercho85 09:08, 11 March 2008 (UTC)
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- Argentina has never been an European country lost in South America. You should read more the articles of Wikipedia:
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"(...)whereas the Amerindian admixture, though not fully visible in physical appearance, was estimated to be present in a high percentage of the (Argentine) population, close to 56% on either paternal or maternal lineages, of which just 10% were shown to have Amerindian ancestors on both lineages".[2].
Argentina is not Europe: not in economy, not in social conditions (38% live below poverty line) and not in race. Europeans do not have Amerindian ancestry. 56% of Argentines do have.
Stop trying to claim Argentina is different from the rest of Latin America, which is not. How can you say comparing Argentina to Mexico is the same to compare Africa to Japan? In what planet do you live?
Of course Japan and African are very different situations. Mexico and Argentina are not.
Just because in Mexico people have a higher Amerindian ethnical influence than Argentina does not make both countries very different.
Latin American has nothing to do with people's race. It is a linguistic and cultural term. In Mexico and Argentina people speak Spanish and are mainly Catholics. Only these 2 similarities make both countries very related to each other.
If Argentina has the highest HDI of Latin America it has nothing to do with the race of its population. What are you trying to sell? Only because Argentina is a White country it is richer than the rest? So Haiti is the poorest country of the region because people there are Blacks?
This is racism. Race has nothing to do with the development of a country. People claim Argentina is 97% White, and 38% of the population live below poverty line. How do you explain that? Russia is in Europe and 40% also live below poverty line.
Argentina was settled by very poor illiterate immigrants. Not different from the rest of Latin America, which also always had a poor illiterate population. If Argentina now has a higher development, it is not because it was settled by Europeans, but because its government worked well in education. If in Haiti, with its African majority, the government had educated its people, it could be richer and more developed than Argentina or any country.
Again, a people's race has nothing to do with their capacity or intelligence. So stop claiming Argentina is more developed and different from the rest of L. America because they are Whites.
Fercho85, you should read Max Weber to learn that race is a political strategy, not a genetical or human unity. Argentina being White does not differ it from the rest of Latin America. Opinoso (talk) 19:23, 11 March 2008 (UTC)
Opinoso (talk) 19:23, 11 March 2008 (UTC)
- Its funny you bring up Argentina's "admixture". There are many studies about the indigenous admixture in Argentines, and all of those studies contradict each other. Some studies say a minority have indigenous genetics, some say a majority have indigenous genetics. I find these studies inconclusive since it only study a few people. The only way you can find the truth is to force every Argentine to get their mitochondrial and y-chromosomal DNA checked. Lehoiberri (talk) 20:08, 11 March 2008 (UTC)
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- There's nothing funny here. There is only one study in Argentine population, not many as you are trying to sell. And they did not study a few people. They studied 12 thousand Argentine DNA.[3]
People do not need to study all Argentina's population to trace their ethnic origin. Only a few people are able to give a estimate about the genetic composition of a country's population. And it was not just a few. Since 1992 scientists are analyzing Argentina's DNA, with a total of 12 thousand people. [4]
12 thousands is a very high number and can trace a population's ethnic origin with these numbers. And, yes, they did analyse Argentina's mitochondrial and y-chromosomal.
Lehoiberri, are you racist? This obssession with Argentina being a copy with Europe is really strange. I wonder why somebody would deny a serious source like they did in Argentinean population. By the way, do you find to have Amerindian admixture a bad thing?
This is serious. In my country racism is a crime and people usually go to prision. Opinoso (talk) 14:14, 12 March 2008 (UTC)
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- You should, at least, read a book about Argentine History before come here and talk with us. Before the mass European immigration, Argentina was like Mexico: a Mestizo and Amerindian majority, and a Spanish-descended minority. After 1870, with the arrival of the immigrants, the original population of Argentina was assimilated into the immigrants.
Or do you think the original population disappeared with the arrival of the immigrants? No, they were integrated in them. So, an Argentine who has an Italian or German surname may also have Amerindian admixture, even if this ancestry it not seem in his complexions.
Anyway, I will stop my discussion here, because I can see I am talking to a person who cannot even discuss equally with me.Opinoso (talk) 14:18, 12 March 2008 (UTC)
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- Wow accusing me of racism, you belittle me but what you said was really a low-blow. I know what study you are talking about, the UBA study, and that study has controversy. Like I said, there are many studies about Argentine genetics, and all are controversial in their findings. I am not denying there are Argentines with Indigenous admixture. 12 thousand is a small number, Argentina is a country is about 30 ~ 40 million people. And lastly, you are confusing me with Fercho85. I never said Argentina was exactly like Europe, I said it was similar to Europe. I think you get confused about that since it looks like English is not your native language. And one more thing, I am not the only one that say Argentina is similar to Europe, many travel shows from the United States and the United Kingdom say that Argentinian culture is more European compare to the rest of Latin America. Since you tell me to read a Argentinian History book, why don't you watch those travel shows about Argentina. I am also ending my discussion here because I am talking to a JACKASS!!!! Lehoiberri (talk) 16:23, 12 March 2008 (UTC)
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Just to finish this discusion, opinoso I was not talking about race if not about quality of life, and about what I said Argentina was kind of a lost europe because of the high ammount of europeans in the 1910's but that has changed because as you said 56% of the population are mixed, by the way about the study from UBA only 320 people were taken into account in samples of 12 thousand people[5].
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- Fercho85 09:08, 11 March 2008 (UTC)
[edit] Rioplatense Spanish
My mother is Argentinian of Italian descent, her Spanish does not even sound like she is speaking Italian. This is an overexaggeration claiming that Rioplatense Spanish can be confused to speaking Italian. Yes, Rioplatense Spanish has Italianisms, but many people claim that Rioplantense Spanish is one of the most clearest Spanish dialects, and foreigners rarely have any problems understanding Argentines. That is why I removed that statement because it is a clear overexaggeration. Lehoiberri (talk) 16:50, 27 March 2008 (UTC)
- Actually, I agree that the intonation is very Italian sounding, especially when compared to other forms of Spanish. I don't think it matters if one is of Italian descent or not- it is common to Argentine Spanish. I also think most Argentines might not be aware of this slight difference. Maybe its only Italian speakers that can sense this? This comes from my own first hand observations when, on a visit to Argentina a few years ago, I crossed the border from Chile: I suddenly felt as if everyone was speaking Italian. Dionix (talk) 18:08, 3 April 2008 (UTC)
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- I have been to Argentina myself and, to me, the Spanish there does not sound "Italian". The only difference I noticed is the pronunciation of the "ll", which is quite different from the way people speak it in Spain and in the rest of Latin America. The rest, they speak the same way other Latin Americans.
Moreover, the Italian immigrants did not speak "Italian", but different dialects. So, it is impossible to have influence from the Italian language in Argentina. The influences would come from some Italian dialects, which have nothing to do with nowadays Italian. The dialects are very, very different from Italian; by the way, they are not actually "dialects", but languages, with different pronunciations from the Standard Italian. Opinoso (talk) 02:32, 7 April 2008 (UTC)
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- By the way, "Rioplatense Spanish", the one people say was influenced by Italian, is spoken in the region of Buenos Aires. Dionix sayed when he crossed the border of Chile with Argentina he thought their Spanish sounded Italian, but it is impossible, because the Spanish spoken in the border of Argentina with Chile is not Rio Platense Spanish;
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- Rio Platense Spanish is spoken around Buenos Aires, which is far away from the border with Chile.
- Opinoso, you are correct in that my first point of entry was in Mendoza province, but I did make my way to BA and beyond. To me, I did not notice a great variation anyways. And that's funny, but no they were not Italian tourists. I think maybe only Italian speakers notice this??- I don't know enough about linguistics to describe it other than it sounded Italian, more specifically southern/ central Italian intonation (It doesn't matter that people spoke dialects- the intonation and cadence is more or less the same from central Italy to northern Calabria, and changes a bit as you move towards Sicily. People from these regions maintain the same attributes when they speak standard Italian). Also, I know of some Argentines who stated they were often taken for Italians when travelling in Spain. Any Italians care to add to this?- And what do others think? Dionix (talk) 04:23, 7 April 2008 (UTC)
[edit] Numbers
The math doesn't add up in the intro: 20-25m Argentines with some Italian ancestry is something like 55%, not 70%. Dionix (talk) 00:09, 11 April 2008 (UTC)
- Based on the 2007 population estimate of 40,301,927, that would actually be 50 to 62%. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Dionix (talk • contribs) 00:12, 11 April 2008 (UTC)
Dionix why did you delete vital information in the lunfardo part? I oppose to remove it, extra information is always good in articles.
