Talk:Italian American

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Contents

[edit] Relevance and facts

Hi, i'm italian. I read the article and is quite well; but i think it deserve more balance in the arguments. The mobster facts are important but i think the article must have a more relevance on good things about what italians did for american society.

another thing is also northern italians come to United States and are settled in west states ( especially Nevada, New Mexico, Oregon, Washington and Arizona). I'll do some research to confirm the facts. —Preceding unsigned comment added by PrettyBoy 15:39, 2 June 2008 (UTC)


[edit] Discovery of the New World

Maybe it should be told in this page that was an Italian to find the America even if he thought it was India ! Cristoforo Colombo from Genova Liguria and it was Amerigo Vespucci to call America America by his own name !!!!! Maybe these people should be in this page don't you think ?


[edit] Francis Ford Coppola and Mario Puzo

I have updated both articles to reflect the fact that both persons are of Italian Heritage. I would advise all to keep a watchful eye on this as it seems that the English speaking peoples of Wikipedia are hell bent on dominating the cultural landscape of America through the utilization of informational sources such as Wikipedia. Comparatively many articles will mention someone of Irish heritage but fewer mention Italian heritage where it is relevant. Datus (talk) 21:25, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Page one

How come Domenici is also listed as the senator of New Mexico? Are these different people?

--Sam

I don't think this list should have been moved. If the main article got too long, the list and the article could have been separated. I'll move it back if no one objects. --Jiang 09:59, 23 Nov 2003 (UTC)

Done --Jiang 06:42, 25 Nov 2003 (UTC)

I'm inclined to move this to Italian American, see [1]. --Jiang 06:42, 25 Nov 2003 (UTC)

I agree. Traditional grammar dictates that a person is an Italian American, but they eat Italian-American cuisine for instance. Since the article starts "An Italian American is an American of Italian descent," then grammatically the article title should be the noun form, Italian American. See also: Hypenated American, which has an extensive discussion of the dropping of the hyphen even in the adjective form because it's seen to indicate mixed nationalities/loyalties.--Laura Scudder | Talk 20:33, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Is the Peter Rodino mentioned here former U.S. Congressman Peter W. Rodino, Jr.? 18.24.0.120 20:15, 7 Feb 2004 (UTC)ˑ

An Italian American is an Italian born in Italy who has moved/ migrated to the States. An American Italian is one who was born in the States from Italian parentage and is currently living there or in Italy. The country of birth comes first.


[edit] Frank Sinatra

It is WRONG that Frank Sinatra is listed as "singer with mob connections" on the list of "Famous Italian Americans." If you click on the link to the article on Frank Sintra, that article says:

Sinatra was dogged throughout his later career by accusations that he was in the Mafia and that his career was aided behind the scenes by associates in organized crime. J. Edgar Hoover apparently suspected Sinatra over the years, and Sinatra's file at the FBI ended up at 2,403 pages. Sinatra publicly rejected these accusations many times, and was never charged with any crimes in connection with them. The character Johnny Fontane in the book and movie The Godfather is inspired by Frank Sinatra and his alleged connections.

So the article itself says that Sinatra was "accused" and "apparently suspected" of having "alleged" mob connections, but "was never charged" with any crime. At the very least, the link to the Frank Sinatra article should say "singer with alleged mob ties." I urge Wikipedia to go further and eliminate completely from the list of Famous Italian-Americans the reference to Sinatra's alleged mob ties. Whereas the full article's discussion of these allegations (cited above) is balanced, it is unfair to take these unproven and speculative charges about Sinatra and put them, on the list of Famous Italian-Americans, on par with Sinatra's tremendous career as a singer.

Tom

Even if he did have mob connections, I fail to see how it is at all relevant to this particular article. He should be on there for his qualities as an artist, not for his vices, whatever they may be. -Travis

Arturo Toscanini is simply an Italian, being anti-fascist he lived 15-20 years in the US before WWII, but after the war he returned to Italy.

[edit] Moved page

I moved the page because far more pages linked to "Italian-American" than linked to "Italian American", and it is most often spelled with a hyphen. - BSveen 00:29, Dec 9, 2004 (UTC)


[edit] Everybody wants to be referred to as Americans

At the begining, it says that Italian-Amercans prefer to be called just Americans. That's true, but other ethnic groups in the United States feel the same way. Arab-Americans, Greek-Americans, Polish-Americans, German-Americans, Irish-Americans, French-Americans, etc., also liked to be reffered to as Americans as well.


i removed this statement because it is a broad statement and not true. there is no way to prove its validity therfore it should not be in the article. if it were true why are there orginizations called italian-american?

Agreed. I don't know of any fellow Italian-American of whom this is true, and I myself am proud to be called an Italian-American. Nightscream 09:02, 11 December 2005 (UTC)

Agree also. Most Italian-Americans are extremely proud of their Italian heritages and identify themselves as such. I know I do and most everyone I know does.-66.254.232.219 09:12, 11 February 2006 (UTC)

As an Italian-American, I have never heard of this either. I know that we are proud to be what is distinctly both Italian and American. Nikki88 08:05, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Italian in the United States

Why am I both creating the section Italian in the United States, and sticking a {{sectfact}} template on it? Having discovered Italian in the United States via Category:Wikipedia articles of dubious importance, I figured the best approach would be to merge/redirect it here, and call for attention of editors here. It's particularly hard to believe Italian-language newspapers haven't existed since the 1950s (see Italian-Canadian for a very vibrant media culture.)

I should also mention User:Vegaswikian, who tagged that article cleanup-importance, suggested on its talk page that it sounds almost like original research.

Anyway, no better people to see what can be made of it than the present company. :) Samaritan 16:30, 29 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Italian newspapers were present at least into the mid-1990s. For example, America Oggi had a circulaiton of at least 30,000 daily issues. Source: NYT: As Mainstream Papers Cut Back, the Ethnic Press Expands Monday, July 22, 1996 p. D7 .. today that paper is distributed as part of La Republica so I don't know if it would be considered a seperate paper or not. --ChrisRuvolo (t) 16:48, 29 Apr 2005 (UTC)


Chris: It is not true that America Oggi today is distributed as part of La Repubblica: it is the opposite. La Repubblica uses America Oggi's distribution network in order to reach a wider audience in the U.S. So they are in fact separate newspapers --User:O.cappelli (t)

[edit] Requested move from Italian-American to Italian American

Italian-American → Italian American – Only adjective form is hyphenated, article title should be noun form. This is consistent with others' recent edits to the article text itself, and similar article like Arab American, African American and others. See:Hyphenated American. — Laura Scudder | Talk 20:41, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)

This article has been renamed as the result of a move request. violet/riga (t) 4 July 2005 21:57 (UTC)

[edit] Rudy Giuliani

Perhaps we should add Rudy Giuliani in the list of famous Italian Americans? // CioDu 14:38, 30 August 2005 (UTC)

I agree. Nikki88 08:06, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

I disagree... the guy is a moron. I'd rather see Lisa Novak.Santos601 12:25, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

I agree his importance as a Federal Prosecutor,His Record as Mayor, September 11th, 2001, and he is the first serious Italian-American Presidential Candidate. I'm sorry Santos but, name-calling is immature and wasteful on a serious discussion board. Saying you disagree and making a suggestion is quite enough to get your point across. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Forza Italia 83 (talk • contribs) 01:30, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Italian American Congressional Medal of Honor Recipients

The section Italian American Congressional Medal of Honor Recipients already has an article. Should one be removed so that both don't have to be updated? There could be an introduction to what the medal of honor is and a link to the other article. Just a suggestion. -- Kjkolb 11:22, 5 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Stereotypes of Italian Americans

I went ahead and moved this parapaph to the bottom of the first section. I am inclined to remove it completely, as I don't feel it is the way of Italian Americans to focus on our stereotypes. There is so much more to our culture and history in America, that its a disservice to denote a major paragraph in the first section to "stereotypes." I feel it can warrant its own section later on perhaps, but lets not focus on this!

It needs to be kept because people come here to refute stereotypes. Rjensen 01:12, 23 December 2005 (UTC)
In the bit about Italian American stereotypes someone spelt Robert DeNiro's name "DiNiro".. not a big deal. I will change it.
"Common stereotypes, beginning in the 1880s and continuing to the present, link Italian Americans to the Mafia or organized crime. In 1891, eleven Italian Americans in New Orleans were lynched when they were suspected of being involved in the Mafia..." This doesn't seem to belong in the Religeon section. In addition; "These unflattering images remain staples of movies like The Godfather" begs for NPOV. Maybe the addition of a section on self-hating Italians who deny unsavory portions of their history is needed, but for the moment, removing the term "unflattering" will suffice on the grounds that it is subjective.

The history section as it is now seems to be completely about how Italians have been steteotyped in the US, and has little information on the history of Italian settlements in the US--where people settled when, etc. THe whole section seems to be one person's attempt to debunk this unfair stereotype; while noble the article would be better served just reporting the facts. johnsemlak 12:00, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Bibliography

It needed a bibliography so I added some scholarly books. Rjensen 06:31, 24 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Italian Internment During WWII

I would like to see a whole article on Italian Internment. I'll make a request, but I do not have enough knowledge on the subject to write the article itself.

Any takers?

Yes. I put an article up at Italian internment. Jeffmatt 07:42, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Italian-American communities

This section is not even close to being accurate. Italians are not "mostly confined" to the northeastern United States. There are tons of Italians in Chicago, Florida, and other places. Also, those places in California don't really have many Italians, some of those neighborhoods in new york definitely aren't italian anymore either. Also, the wording of the paragraph is weird and awkward. Basically that whole section sucks imo and needs to be reworked(no offense to anyone). if anyone agrees with this, please respond and I will go ahead and revamp it.

ok, i made some changes. i removed some cities and neighborhoods that i know for sure are not known for a heavy concentration of italians. I removed the "confined" language cause that was flat-out not true. i still don't really understand the obsession with Kansas City, and the person who said that people are moving to San Diego and LA to AVOID high real estate prices obviously is misinformed about how expensive things are in Cali, but I'll leave that in there cause i don't want to change too much at one time.
  • Yeah, the problem is that the "qualifications" for the list are so open-ended that invariably people are going to keep adding questionable things to it based on their own perceptions... instead of just listing random italian american communities, it'd probably be a better idea to be more specific, maybe a list of places w/ high italian american populations via the US census, and a list of historically italian american communities... Passdoubt | Talk 04:50, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Pictures

There should be at least a couple pictures of some famous Italian-Americans. If we look at the Jewish American sections there are some pictures of famous American Jews, and therefore there should be some pictures of famous Italian Americans. - Galati

Any women that can be added to the pictures? 66.183.217.31 22:32, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

I added two new pictures for 6 (Polish Americans for example has up to 8) I would prefer that they were arranged in 2 rows of 3 but I couldn't figure out how to format that so if anyone could fix that please go ahead. As for my choices, I put Giuliani back up only because the fact that he's one of the most prominent politicians in the country, is running for president and is of Italian heritage is noteworthy. Partisan reasonings aside, I think it's a nice balance with Nancy Pelosi up as well. Fiorello LaGuardia's place is a lot more historical and symbolic. As for Iacocca, I'm open for change but I figured we should feature at least one Italian American that was a major figure in the business world, and Iacocca certainly was one. 72.185.13.214 06:50, 07 November 2007 (UTC)

  • I favor dropping Scorcese (even though I appreciate his work) in favor of a scientist like Enrico Fermi or a jurist like Antonin Scalia. While Italian Americans are frequently recognized as entertainers, they are often overlooked for their scholarly contributions. Fermi is considered one of the greatest scientists of the 20th Century, and Scalia is recognized as an outstanding constitutional scholar and a brilliant jurist. Frankly, I'd like to see both pictures added, and LaGuardia removed, as three politicians out of six photos is simply too much. I do agree that Iacocca is a fair choice to represent business leaders.--Ana Nim 15:16, 7 November 2007 (UTC)
    • I'm in definite agreement with you concerning putting up a scientist and making the picture list more "well-rounded." Three politicians is, indeed, weighty. It would really open up a heated debate if Giuliani were to be dropped in favor of keeping Pelosi or vice versa; therefore your suggestion to drop LaGuardia is probably the least controversial of the three to be dropped. The only thing is that he's a historical Italian-American political figure and while not huge outside of New York politics was certainly a huge force there. Of course, the same could be said for Mario Cuomo.

As for the scientist suggestion; it would be nice, I think the thing is at the current moment all pictures represent highly known figures. Up until you mentioned him, I had no idea who Enrico Fermi was (but thank you because it's very good to know!) So it all depends on if we want the pictures to represent highly recognized figures or a more diverse representation, including some more "niche" figures who may not be as well-known outside of their fields. I won't change anything though, I guess we should let some others weigh in. (By the way although I finally remembered my wiki account info, I'm the same user as 72.185.13.214) Reflexsilver86 07:53, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

  • Given this discussion, why are more entertainers being added? Do we really need Stallone? Still not one scientist, inventor (Marconi or Meucci), or Supreme Court justice. Is Stallone or Marciano really more "notable" than Justice Scalia? Only if you erroneously equate notability with pop culture. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ana Nim (talk • contribs) 17:51, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

I removed Al Pacino and replaced him with Samuel Alito. I think being that we have 9 pictures total, 3 of which are still entertainers, 1 being a business leader, 3 being politicians (1 of which has a historical legacy and 2 being current), as suggested by Ana Nim we should in fact include one Italian American who is a member of the Supreme Court (we can debate later over whether it should be Alito or Scalia, but I just preferred Alito in this case)

If people are to make any further edits to the pictures section, I think we should avoid adding any more entertainers, unless it's to replace one with another. 1/3 of the lot being entertainment figures is enough. Reflexsilver86 (talk) 07:15, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Moved discussion about this article from my talk page to here

Why were my edits to that article immediately reverted?128.164.229.179 14:35, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

I believe that inserting racial and ethnic slurs into encyclopedia articles is vandalism. A gross generality like "Italian Americans are notoriously racist against blacks." is an ethnic slur. Although racism certainly occurs in many American cultures, and discussions of it can be informative, inflammatory, unreferenced contributions like that are disruptive to Wikipedia. It is a goal of all articles to represent a neutral point of view - please see WP:NPOV Thanks Dina 14:40, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

I didn't throw that comment into the article nakedly like that - I pointed out that the phenomenon is oft spoken-of in US culture, and referenced in pop-culture featuring Italian-Americans. Somebody viewing these films and listening to these celebrities would easily notice this re-occuring theme. Why should this article be so silent about it? It be as outrageous as this article never mentioning the mob stereotype, and thus would be obvious evidence of POV influence.128.164.229.179 15:04, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

Okay, then let's work on it. Here's what you wrote:


Italian Americans are notoriously racist against blacks. This phenomenon is referenced and burlesqued throughout American pop-culture, such as in films and televisions series like The Godfather II, The Sopranos, Do the Right Thing, and Ghost Dog, and through the words of famous Italian American personalities such as radio host Anthony Cumia and voice-over artist John DiMaggio. It also manifests itself in nationally reported news events such as the Yusef Hawkins murder and assasination attempt on Al Sharpton by Michael Riccardi.

I think your first sentence should be something that doesn't insult all the Italian Americans that aren't racist -- Maybe something like "Italian Americans have often been portrayed by the popular media as racist against African Americans. This phenomenon is referenced and burlesqued throughout American pop-culture, such as in films and televisions series like The Godfather II, The Sopranos, Do the Right Thing, and Ghost Dog, and through the words of famous Italian American personalities such as radio host Anthony Cumia and voice-over artist John DiMaggio. Some notorious acts of racism have also been perpetrated by Italian Americans such as the Yusef Hawkins murder and assasination attempt on Al Sharpton by Michael Riccardi.

However, I also think you should make an effort to find a real source -- an article, study or book that talks about this phenomenon. I mean, you can't really characterize an entire culture based on 4 movies and 2 crimes -- if this were true we could write something completely spurious about any culture. Dina 15:19, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] History

Contrary to the impression created in the article, Italian-Americans were an important force in the U.S. before 1880. There were whole regiments of Italian-Americans in the Union Army during the Civil War.

[edit] enemy aliens/Italian Americans

Yes, it is true that 600,000 Italians in the US were required to carry ID cards in 1942. BUT they were Italian citizens!--born in Italy, moved to the US, and never bothered to become naturalized. What would you expect, given the fact that we were at war with Italy? In 1941, when the US entered WW2, there were 1,100,000 enemy aliens in the country--i.e. citizens of Italy, Germany and Japan. The FBI detained fewer than 7,000 of these people. A larger number were moved out of their homes because of the War Relocation Authority--not the Enemy Alien Act of 1940. The Japanese were treated horrendously--most of the relocated were native-born US citizens! But the Italians had fewer than 2,000 persons held and relocated (most of them were Italian merchant seamen trapped in US ports when the war broke out), and there were only a handful of native-born US citizens caught up in the sweep. Perhaps all this turns on the defintion of "Italian American," but I don't see any evidence--Di Stasi's book to the contrary--that members of the Italian-American community (citizens or not) got a particularly raw deal. Jeffmatt 13:19, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

Also, if "Lawrence DiStasi claims that these wartime restrictions and internments contributed more than anything else to the loss of spoken Italian in the United States," then he is wrong. Immigrant languages in the United States have a long history of dying out after a generation. Italian was disappearing even at the time of WW1 when Italy was on our side. Jeffmatt 19:27, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Criminality

I just removed the following:

"The United States Department of Justice estimates that less than .0025 percent of the estimated 16 to 26 million Americans of Italian descent are involved in criminal activitites. [2]"

Firstly, it is a source wrongly attributed to the USDJ but really derived from someone active in the Order Sons of Italy in America (who doesn't state her source more specifically).

Secondly, the numbers are ridiculous, claiming that 400 to 650 (out of 16 to 26 million) Italian Americans have committed a crime. My assumption that the crime rate in this major part of the US population is about national average - so quite a bit higher. - Chincoteague 06:23, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] "related groups" info removed from infobox

For dedicated editors of this page: The "Related Groups" info was removed from all {{Infobox Ethnic group}} infoboxes. Comments may be left on the Ethnic groups talk page. Ling.Nut 17:07, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Need comment at deletion discussion

Please see the discussion here -- this needs more input from editors who actually work in this area. Badagnani 16:50, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Religion section

In some communities Italian American Catholics were discriminated against by Irish and German Catholic leaders and were forced to leave the church and join the Episcopal Church.

I don't have time to do the research and writing but this doesn't sound very NPOV and the link provided doesn't seem like the kind of citation needed. I am changing the language about being "forced" because, aside from anything else questionable about that statement, there is no way they were "forced" to join the Episcopal Church. DeSales 23:25, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

I added a citation needed tag to the text (edited by me since the above quotation) because I think it needs a better citation than just the link to the New Jersey church website. It says "some communities," not one community, and I'm not at all sure even "felt discriminated against" is the best summary of what happened in the case described on the linked website. I may edit the existing wording further. DeSales 02:31, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Deletion discussion

See Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of Italian Americans (2nd nomination). Badagnani 02:36, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Picture Issue

How does Robert DeNiro represent Italians? He is 75% Irish. Though it may be hard to find someone of full Italian origins there are at least people like Kelly Ripa (75% Italian), Lindsay Lohan (50% Italian), Madonna (50%), Gwen Stefani (50%), or Chris Evans (actor) (50% Italian) who would represent the Italian community as well! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.150.154.247 (talk) 20:25, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

That always bothered me too, I love DeNiro but you've got my vote to switch in somebody else, a 100-percenter would be nice, what about Maria Bartiromo? Anne Bancroft? --CliffC 22:30, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

The thing is, is that I dont know how to switch and who to switch it to! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 142.222.112.167 (talk) 19:45, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

I switched Robert DeNiro to Madonna; hopefully, she'll be a better representative than RD. — Charity (talk) 22:00, 26 November 2007 (UTC)