Talk:Israeli-Palestinian conflict/Archive 5

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Hate, propaganda and information

I love Wikipedia. I read it often wherever I am. It’s incredible that it works and it the closest I’ve seen to democratizing information, but in areas of political matters NPOV ends up being limited to event dates and names. Editorializing is the norm (which this is).

This page should probably be moved to an archive (or maybe trash bin) but I’d like to post it here for a week or two. The sad state of affairs in the world makes me want to write this. Probably a fruitless attempt to fight the propaganda quotient always present in the Israel-Palestine issue. NPOVs doesn't mean someone can't take a side... just make sure you stick to the facts both pro and con. Nor do NPOVs mean a fact (even ones that are unpleasant) should be censored.

Words can hurt… so places like Wikipedia are not always harmless NPOVs like some wish to believe. Insertion or removal of information does affect people's perceptions and caution should be made before quickly doing either.

I can’t condense every perceived injustice and fact in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict in one essay and could continue tit-for-tat examples of injustice for years but I figure I’ll try and take a few easily observable potshots at everyone. If I am inaccurate in some statement let me know. I make mistakes (too many) and being politically correct with everyone with biting sarcasm is hard. I also try to use the description ‘’some’’ rather than stereotype all as being the same. I might slip up here and there… unintentional (this was written in a day)… but you can psychoanalyze otherwise.

If my assurances that my wish is peace… not discrimination…. are not enough then I am an anti-Semite, anti-Christian, anti-Muslim and whatever other label you care to encapsulate my existence in..

Moving along….

I’d also like to point out that (despite media reports) I believe most people (be they Jews, Christian, Muslim, secular, or other) are not radicals and should not be labeled murderous Jew lovers, Nazis or Jihad bomb makers. These polarizing terms are inevitably overzealously used by trouble making hot heads (with little agendas and nothing politically constructive to say) I don’t need to be warned of the dangers of genocide and massive injustices when somebody simply disagrees with me on some particular point.

Relax. I’m not (that) stupid or insensitive. I feel pain.

Any morals aside… every one knows there are many people with WMD (and even more in the future). Respect your neighbor… or ba-da-BOOM. Not everyone is crazy enough (or interested enough) in blowing up the world even though it seems today many seek to resolve the “peace” through escalating firepower. (An outdated method at solving problems that is no longer even remotely applicable in most situations.)

Just in case you don’t get the point I’m alluding to.

Recently CNN reported a bowling alley in the U.S. (that is popular in the local Jewish community) was partially funded by Yasser Arafat. Does this mean the locals are supporters of terrorism?

HELLO ANYONE HOME?

You destroy your credibility and any connection with objectivity if you associate everyone that has associated with someone that that tries to kill one of your relatives…as an assassin in the ongoing plot against “your people”. Or even simply disagrees with you.

Well…. at least if you can’t back your claim with evidence of some atrocity or Semtex hidden in one’s loafers. The reason I say this will become self evident in a moment.

:For The vocal Jewish Community (not necessarily all Jewish people)

As a non-Jew, non-Christian, and non-Muslim and several other “Nons” (Lots of people talk.. I mostly don’t know what to believe) I've always found a little hint of "I'm special" in the term anti-Semitism as opposed to the more general term racism/discrimination.

"My group has suffered more than yours and therefore I deserve special status, consideration, and possibly moral latitude." My honest POV of what I am actually being told. Otherwise I’d hear much more about Christian, Buddhist and Muslim suffering at Jewish hands (I’m sure it happens to). Somebody with NPOV from Katmandu should be drafted to count the number of time a day the media mentions the Holocaust somewhere (oops)

Its my imagination? Hmmmm….. Luckily Google News provides me with the number 3120 times (in the last thirty days from 4500 news sources). Forgive me… doesn’t that seem a lot for something that happened 50 years ago? Stalin killed 20 million or so 50 years ago only came up 1590 times (still too much for my tastes). Israel is mentioned 45,000 times which compares favorably to its legitimacy in the media’s eyes versus Palestine at 8,000. Incidentally the entire continent of Africa is only mentioned 60,000 times.

Before some statistician argues how my results are easily skewed for a variety of reasons please provide me with the correct ones. This is best easily available option I know of at the moment.

Going back to anti-Semitism.

For the most part it makes no sense to make that distinction with discrimination unless you are looking for “special status”. I know Jews have been discriminated against, but even it the act of fighting discrimination some of you have managed to discriminate.

I personally don’t go to the weekly Holocaust denial meetings (who has time between bomb making courses and hate literature readings) but a mishmash of Muslims and Christians at various points in history have resorted to violence and bigotry towards Jews.

However I’d like to point out Jewish culture has responded in like at times. It also has some sects with moral irregularities as well. Palestinian issues aside… Gentiles (non-Jews) in the Torah and in the Halacha are not always viewed with equality in mind… not to mention the Israeli version of government has a curious flavor of democracy for non-Jews. One might be forgiven with all the powerful Jewish individuals in the media and business that one might have a bit of paranoia of your “peace” motives. 'How much of your synagogue money and influence goes towards feeding homeless Palestinians…. and how much towards Israeli tanks' that squash three times as many Palestinian children as Israeli?

http://www.daatemet.org/daathalacha/en_gentiles.html (A Jewish site that examines interpretations of the Torah that are quite unGentile in fact it uses the words “blatently racist”. Those interpretations come from Orthodox Jewish scholars. Are those the same ones that maintain your Jewish “ideals” (If your going to scream murder, you better get your own house in order.)

http://www.idi.org.il/english/ (A Jewish DEMOCRACY site (ha) that tries to convince itself it is unbiased and rational while discussing openly how to ethically control non- Jewish demographics in Israel. I wonder how Spielberg would feel if someone told him Jewish demographics in America need to be managed? How about them lazy Blacks? Them Chinese are dirty too!)

Of course the Holocaust club is going to be waved around at some point “never forget”.

Although the analogy may be offensive to some of you…, You sound like my mother telling me about something her borther did wrong when I was sixteen. I have a memory I don’t need a solemn reminder everyday in the newspaper to remind me. Neither does the rest of the world need it for every transgression against humans against one another…for all eternity. Nor is it evidence as proof your always on moral high ground and everything you do is justified for your survival.

Unless of course you think your “special”.

If so please announce it in the newspaper next to the candle light vigil, so at least I know where I stand in your eyes.

“Never again” ?

I may be slow but I can remember the inhumanity of the Holocaust without you. Not because they were Jewish but because they were human. 'The tact of labeling everybody that disagrees with Israel's handling of Palestine anti-Semitic, is creating more hatred than reducing.' The term originally arose to fight hatred before the Nazi's has been a dismal historical failure to that ends.

Try something else... it's called diplomacy and compromise.

The Jewish people rightfully still feel traumatized after the Holocaust. And yet they have managed to thrive. I wouldn’t know where to begin with all the wonderful things that people of Jewish decent have contributed to the world. They have educated humanity in modern law, physics, mathematics, medicine. Their numbers so few that if not G~ds chosen people… then certainly are some of the finest examples of mans.

It’s sad when a Palestinian blows up a bus in Haifa or an Israeli tank runs over a Palestinian but MILLIONS of children are dying in Africa (EVERY YEAR). Sorry to interrupt all your suffering, but it isn’t even close… dare I say it… to even the Holocaust.

If you must “never forget” at least try to be less combative. Instead of anti-Semitism how about discrimination against Jews. Or 'Some feel Jews are historically persecuted to a greater extent than all other groups. Despite the well documented Holocaust such wide strokes are difficult to quantify.'

How about mentioning that virtually all groups have valid gripes against other groups. Give examples for each group. Let others make the decision as to whether millions gased is equivalent to a bulldozed Palestinian home. Or maybe you think people are too stupid to make up their own minds, or that Jews at times aren't also perpetrators of discriminaion?

:Onwards to some in the Arab community

You always speak about Arab rights. 'Arab rights? What the J*had is that?' If I was an American politician (I’m not American) and said “White rights” publically I would lose my job in short order. The Arab media on the other hand goes on and on blatantly speaking about Arab rights.

Arab rights?

You should be ashamed of yourselves. 'The term is HUMAN RIGHTS' (and that incidentally does include Arabs no matter what the current situation) I especially love when “moderates” scream when an armed Palestinian is killed while Israel tries to secure their children from getting blown up (for the gazzilionth time in history). 'A curious thing though… your voice seems to lose decibels when a Jew’s guts are spread all over the street.'

Can you speak up? I can barely hear you.

You speak about goodness. What difference does any injustice against your children have in your alleged belief in peace, love forgiveness? Without metaphor (which can be used to explain any agenda) please point out the section in the Koran that indicates you should feel that killing 3000 people trying to feed their families is goodness?

I still can’t hear your outrage.

It was two sentences long and said in a whisper. Your “charities” have a curious way of paying for grenades and bullets. Is that a Ramadan tradition I am unfamiliar with? 'If the American and Jews are to blame for all you problems then why are you fighting with the Chinese, the Russians, and 10 or twenty other countries?' Are all the infidels conspiring against you and Allah?

How about Iran?

Finally free of the aforementioned Great Satan… has it become paradise on earth? Is it the great bastion of tolerance and love? Or a poor nation that has stooped to supporting cowards that plant bombs in shopping malls and buses. Why is it those Americans who are controlled by “the evil Jews” live longer, are better educated and engineered virtual every comfort that improves your lives?

'How has your recent inspirational and loving interpretation of the Koran help invent antibiotics, send men to space, or enjoy a film with a friend?'

The people of Mesopotamian civilization brought humanity out of the darkness of savagery. The ancient Egyptians inspire men even today with their magnificent works. For over a thousand years the West returned to ignorance… and yet again Arabs brought men to the light.

But what have you given to the world in the last 500 hundred years? Other than the constant whining about “Arab Greatness” and “Arab Rights”?

Grow up stop destroying things like an insecure brat. Try building something. Your competent ancestors would be ashamed at your incompetence and seething hatred.

:And last let me finish with the Christians

Christians (Especially those in America) love to talk about peace and freedom. Let’s take a look at some historical highlights. Lets start a little light hearted.

G~d fearing Americans….. Do a search of the term American foreign aid on Google and see what comes up. I can’t believe American’s can send men into orbit then be so ignorant that they think Arab animosity to them arose from a vacuum. Americas been footing the bill for Israel (to the tune of 100 billion (not-misprint) U.S. taxpayer dollars over the last 50 year. Is America, Israel or the world more secure now because of it?

Wake up… your paying for colonialism But then again… you’re the same guys that “discovered” those damn “terrorist” native Indians. How exactly did 13 colonies become the United States? The American history course I took seems to gloss over the ethics of that subject.

You freedom lovers have the highest incarceration rate in the world. You “freed” Iraq? Iraqis everywhere are now thanking-you for improving their freedom to go to work… to line up for a job… to go to a funeral… to define their own country without your help.

Let’s not forget those Europeans though (which is also largely Christian).

You guys are responsible for the most gruesome war in human history. Nazis may have sent Jewish children to gas chambers, but the Vatican seemed to become afflicted with the same malady as the Arabs… quiet voices.

Of but it wasn’t Christians… yeah right. What about the Christians that “saved” the millions of natives that once occupied the Americas? Or the Inquisition? How about the Crusades? What none of them were Christian’s either? But what about the technical accomplishments of Western thought?

- Number one in WMD (especially thermonuclear devices) that threaten the annihilation of all life on earth.

- Number one in pollution output causing Global warming that threatens the annihilation of all life on earth.

- Number one contributor in causing the largest destruction of biodiversity since humans first walked on this earth… which of course threatens the entire existence of every living creature on earth.

And yet…

Despite those horrific titles, the bulk of knowledge and tolerance lives and was created on Western shores. Mostly Christian followers have still managed to create a place where Christians, Muslims , Jews and others can almost universally coexist and blossom peacefully…. even during the most trying and difficult of times. To date the west has unquestionably created the most magnificent example of a civilization that all can partake in.

Before you pat yourself too much though… just try and remember exactly who is going to watch your five thousand channels of TV… if everything is radioactive, we have no ozone, it rains sulfuric acid, and there is no life left on earth?

: I’ve offended enough. 

I’m not letting the rest of world off however the current mess seems primarily between those three groups.

Please don’t take my criticisms as I believe I’m perfect. I have lots of skeletons but hating and killing people for the sake of “good” is not one of them.

Is discrimination and suffering measured per capita or by total population? How is torture measured in? Is death not suffering? How is that suffering measure against periods of time where a culture thrives? How do we compare suffering between ever mingling cultures? How does one incorporate evolution? Have many impartial studies have been funded to compare suffering between groups? I could go on.

Where should our values and allegiances fall? Within our religion? Some nation? Some international (as yet undefined) standard, or somewhere else?

Examining ones history and cultural heritage is one thing however I find that individuals that identify themselves primarily as part of those kinds of groups… discriminate by nature (Be it a nation or religion). Being human eventually ends up coming second to their primary classification <fill in the category here> and resistance by excluded groups naturally arises.

Something I find hypocritical is that often people will say they are against discrimination, but then proceed to economically support primarily their own groups (online in Wikipedia or economically somewhere else). Even if it is in response to some other group, how is that not discrimination?

It’s one of the few ways that you can truly take a stand and have a voice and NOT discriminate.

Granted in states of war restraint becomes difficult. However “I was following orders” is no excuse. Each individual can make the choice how to define themselves. One’s values can not be dispersed, or the value is meaningless. People that speak of human rights… can not rationally identify their primary allegiance by nation or religion… or else they’re empty words.

Incidentally and fortunately “human rights” (35000) renewed my faith that most of the media is moderate.

Google news is an interesting tool for tracking the media although I’m sure the results will eventually become corrupted (Google bombed) as soon as more people realize one can actually measure things like this.

The way we define and categorize life and morality in general seems imprecise and vague. Early Twentieth century eugenics culminated with a few nasty peoples attempts to make those definitions (their versions) precise using military methods.

However those definitions are still unresolved. And an information war continues with different parties looking to get a leg up.

Stop already.

Maybe those definitions should never be made but I doubt that will happen as genetic engineering is on the horizon and laws and choices will need to be made to support our infrastructure. As for Palestine and Israel.... split the country and move on.

Some feedback on some of the uglier facts? and POVs would really be appreciated. Of course my IP is out there. Hopefully my lowly wit can unite the brains at Al Qaeda, the Mossad and the NSA… to save the world from my great evil.

~ To propaganda perpetuators Just because I say “I love killing time philosofizing" does not mean 'I love killing'

…and just because I’m too lazy to correct the spelling of the word 'filosophizing' does not mean I lack understanding.