Talk:Israel and the European Union

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Contents

[edit] This article is not neutral

This article is not neutral as it only talks about one point of view. The article reads more like a commentary from a political lobby group who are in favour of accession of Israel to the EU. It is also very poorly organised. -- Andem 21:57, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

Honestly, I think the whole article could use a rewrite. Some of it could stay, but it definitely needs a lot done. Perhaps someone who knows the subject well could try to tackle it? -- Cielomobile talk / contribs 01:05, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

I think I've managed to rewrite the article in a pretty satisfactory fashion. Feel free to to write to me here if you think any changes or more information is required. -- ErezR1

I haven't read through the article, because it lacks clear headings. Most users don't want to sift through a bunch of text to find out what they want to know. See Detroit for an example of an article with lots of nice subsections. It becomes much easier to get to what you want like that! Thanks for your contributions though, it does look better. -- Cielomobile minor7♭5 01:08, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

Alright, I'll try to reorganize it. But is there a reason why my editing no longer appears as the current version of the article? the information I've added was saved in the page's editing history, but the older version is now the current version. Was there something wrong about my editing or is this some kind of mistake? 11:52, 3 October 2006 (UTC) ErezR1 11:52, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

It seems that it's back now... -- ErezR1 12:06, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

Hi, I live in Europe and, a far as my humble opinion is concerned, I would be very much in favour of Israel joining the EU. But that's my personal humble opinion, my POV. From a different, more neutral standpoint, the one expected from Wikipedia, I would agree that this article does not conform to standards and it might not belong here. And one needs not really decide if the entry is POV: at least, it surely tackles with an event which is described as hopefully happening at some point in the future, and which has not taken place yet. Wikipedia does not publish original research, nor does it claim to be able and foresee the future. The entry should be either deleted, or reworded in such a way as to describe the existance of a political vision favouring full EU membership for Israel, and not the pros of Israel becoming a member party of the EU. By the way, I think that this entry is being sponsored by an Italian NGO known as "Nonviolent Radical Party". Their homepage links directly to here at present. 83.190.203.57 12:52, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Lack of organization

This page is not organized at all. Perhaps someone who knows more about the subject could fix this? Cielomobile talk / contribs 04:42, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

After the recent wikifying, does anyone still think we need the Wikify template, or should we remove it? Also, I'm not so sure we still need the neutrality template, but I won't be the one to remove it since I was the one who rewrote most of the article, so someone might think I'm biased. -- ErezR1 12:30, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] copyright

Ruth ds (talk) 16:18, 14 February 2008 (UTC) the last section of the article copies from a paper that is marked as 'please do not quote without author's permission' (in the reference there is a link to the paper). I happen to know the author who is not very happy about the fact that she was not asked for permission, and certainly did not give the authorisation to copy whole paragraphs of her draft paper into the wiki article. Who did that? Can anything be done about this? Besides, some updates are necessary.

[edit] please expand

Could someone expand this article, it's a good topic. The article should be organised better and cleaned up. It should also be expanded to include some of the negative implications for the European Union if Israel was to join. For example, it could put Europe in a very sticky situation with regards to conflicts in the Middle East. It could potentially increase the threat of terrorism to other European countries. It would be wondered how the several million muslims in Europe would react to Israel joining. Israel is also in Asia, (by traditional definition) so there would be some opposed to such an expansion. What about the international implications? Currently the United States has much influence over Israel, as it's staunch supporter, what could happen when the European Union takes over this role. Then theres the positive economical impact it could have on Europe as a developed nation entering the EU. There are other arguments as Israel's culture is very much related back to Europe's. I think these topics should be mentioned in the article. 124.179.249.174 12:11, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

Some of what you noted can be added one way or another, but as far as I'm aware we can only speculate on much of the rest of what you say because there isn't enough academic research about it thus far. ErezR1 15:12, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] POV check

I've tagged this for a POV check - despite the recent revisions it still reads like a promotional piece telling readers how wonderful it would be if Israel were to join the EU. Cynical 08:28, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Added a new version

I've submitted a better organized version with some more information. Please share your reflections on it. ErezR1 22:26, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Title

I'm wondering why the title is Accession of Israel to the European Union and not Israel and the European Union. For other countries, "Accession of COUNTRY to the European Union" is only used if the country is an official candidate or acceding country, while it's "COUNTRY and the European Union" for other countries. (Stefan2 03:11, 7 October 2006 (UTC))

I personally don't mind calling it Israel and the European Union, but in addition - and not instead of - to Accession of Israel to the European Union, because half of the article talks about the possibilty of accession of Israel to the EU or the EU's internal market, and the other half is more of a prologue to that part. -- ErezR1 14:39, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

Still, this is indeed the de facto-standard used. —Nightstallion (?) 21:05, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Europe

is isreal even geographicly in europe? i dont think so--Slogankid 10:29, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

Clearly, Israel is not in Europe. The article also discusses this point, see http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Accession_of_Israel_to_the_European_Union#Israel.27s_position_regarding_the_Copenhagen_criteria -- ErezR1 10:55, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

For all its flaws, Turkey does have European territory. To take Israel in would be stretching the definition Europe too far.

Although the "exact" geographical boundaries of Europe are somewhat disputed, I suppose it would be safe to say that Cyprus is also _not_ in Europe. However, The Republic of Cyprus (i.e., the Greek part) is deemed to have a European "culture and people" (don't ask me how this is defined, because I don't know :-) and is a member state of the European Union. I suppose a similar argument could be made (perhaps with a bit of stretch) for the Israelis. -- Grimne 08:58, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
French Guinea is not physically in Europe...its in South America but it is part of the EU as it is part of a European state. Israel is a modern, democratic state which has more in common with other EU nations than its neighbours. If we ignore the Occupied Territories for a moment, Israel would be far easier to intergrate into the EU than the Ukraine, Serbia, or a number of other European nations. 79.75.184.8 (talk) 15:17, 24 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Law of Return vs. European free migration

Does anyone have any good refs on how these might interact? I imagine Europe probably doesn't want to open itself to the entire Jewish diaspora. —Ashley Y 00:57, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

I do not think it would be a problem. At present, both Ireland and Italy have "laws of return" similar to the Israeli one. Any US (or Canadian or Argentinian or whatever) citizens with an Italian or Irish heritage already have full right to become EU citizens by claiming an Irish or Italian passport. 83.190.203.57 13:01, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
It's actually more of a problem for Israel. If Israel joined, then Israelis would gain free right of movement and settlement in all the EU nations (perhaps initially phased in over a few years, as is happening with the new eastern European members) BUT Israel would also have to accept that any EU citizen would be free to settle in Israel, Jewish or not. This clashes with Israels law of return, and desire to keep Israel a Jewish majority state. Maybe the article should discuss this more, as it's a HUGE issue. Given that Israel is already under demographic pressure, with the prospect of it's rapidly growing Arab population possibly threatening the state's Jewish majority in the future, does Israel really want to open the doors to unrestricted, non-Jewish European immigration as well? Are there any quotes from the Israeli politicians mentioned as supporting EU membership on how they'd handle this? Indisciplined 15:49, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
I agree, I would also like to see a lot more discussion of this issue. —Ashley Y 20:08, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
Note that Sephardim have some kind of right to return to Spain since the 1920s. --84.20.17.84 16:01, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Diamonds

In 2004 the total volume of bilateral trade (excluding diamonds) came to over €15 billion.

This exclusion awakens my interest. It should be explained in a note or linked to some article on Diamond trade, Diamond trade of Israel, or Diamond trade of the European Union.

This comes of the top of my head. Including diamonds in the trade balance is somewhat problematic, as the value added is relatively small compared to the total value, so it tends to inflate the amount of trade. Also, Israel is a pretty big processor of diamonds, although it does not produce any.

[edit] "One of the founding nations of the EU - Germany - has a Law of Return quite similar to Israel's"

This isn't actually true, is it? Germany allows people whose ancestors were citizens of Germany to return, but AFAIK it does not allow the descendants of Anglo-Saxons to "return" to Angeln and Saxony. Israel, by contrast, allows all Jews to "return" to Israel, even if they can't trace a particular ancestral line to anyone who lived in the modern state or even mandate Palestine. —Ashley Y 21:07, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

I think that above POV is inaccurate, as Germany allows "volksdeutsch", that is anyone with German roots (including baltic Germans [Volga Germans], that were never part of the modern german state) to get German citizenship. The law is codified in Article 116 of the Basic Law for the Federal Republic of Germany, which provides access to German citizenship for anyone "who has been admitted to the territory of the German Reich within the boundaries of December 31, 1937 as a refugee or expellee of German ethnic origin or as the spouse or descendant of such person".[1] —Preceding unsigned comment added by 192.147.58.6 (talk • contribs)

But "German ethnic origin" only goes back a few hundred years: the Volga Germans, for instance, emigrated in 1763. By contrast, Jews may "return" to Israel even if they've had no ancestral connection to the land for 2000 years. Even the Anglo-Saxon connection to Angeln and Saxony is only 1500 years old, but that doesn't make the English "volksdeutsch" in any German legal sense. —Ashley Y 18:22, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Israel will not join EU

in Europe there are a lot of Muslims. If israel joins the EU, then the muslims will move to Israel and the jews will lose Israel and again - the jews will not have a country

The Jews will lose Israel in any case. The Muslim population in Israel has a higher growth ratio than the Jewish population, so the Jewish population will be outnumbered by the Muslim population in the future. (58.188.97.134 07:33, 20 January 2007 (UTC))
If Israel joins the EU, then the Tribulation will begin.--168.13.191.66 16:22, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
A rather intresting statement, but then I see that your IP address is in Georgia, USA.....'fundie' land!79.75.184.8 (talk) 15:24, 24 December 2007 (UTC)
Why would European Muslims move to Israel? They have a better standard of living in most Western EU nations than in Israel, they wont speak Hebrew (important if you want a job), and there is plenty of discrimination in Israel. If Israel joined the EU, it would not surprise me if there was a shift of people from Israel to other EU, both Jewish and non-Jewish, espcailly when conflicts gets worse.
Regarding the Muslim growth rate in Israel, it's decreasing by 0.1% a year. So at the current rate the Jewish and Muslim growth rate in Israel will be equal in 2020. Etams 14:14, 31 October 2007 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Etams (talk • contribs)
There was a report of Jews moving from Russia to Germany in greater numbers than Israel in recent years due to the violence and general economic state in Israel and a rather generous German government. 79.75.184.8 (talk) 15:24, 24 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Addressing the concerns raised at AfD discussion

The current deletion discussion for this article suggests that most editors think the article should exist. However, several have raised concerns, including tone, POV and crystal ball speculations about hypothetical future events.

I'd like to suggest that we follow Wikipedia guidelines and remove hypothetical speculation about future Israeli membership in the EU and focus the article on historic and current relations between Israel and the EU. eliminating speculative material may also help solve some POV concerns. Cheers, Majoreditor (talk) 04:14, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

I think the accession of Israel to the EU should be removed, basically everything in heading 2 (Possible future developments in EU-Israel relations). I have removed it. If anyone else believes it should be in here, please elaborate. My reasons (along with others) are clear.--Waqas1987 (talk) 01:40, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
I support the section's removal. A section such as "Possible future developments" is sheer crystal ball and didn't belong. Majoreditor (talk) 02:06, 18 February 2008 (UTC)