Talk:Israel/Israel and the Occupied Territories-4

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[edit] What do the Bible and Qur'an say about the land of Israel?

The Biblical story tells of God's promise of the Holy land to Abraham's descendants, which include Isaac and Ishmael. Of course, you are free to interpret the stories any way you want, of course to you, Jews are the sole inheritors of Abraham's legacy. Muslims interpret it differently.--Alberuni 18:55, 28 Oct 2004 (UTC)

The Bible also says this:

Genesis 28:1-4 Isaac summoned Jacob and gave him a blessing and a charge. 'Do not marry a Canaanite girl,' he said. 'Set out and go to Padan Aram, to the house of your maternal grandfather Bethuel. Marry a daughter of your uncle Laban. God Almighty will then bless you, make you fruitful, and increase your numbers. You will become an assembly of nations. He will grant Abraham's blessing to you and your descendants, so that you will take over the land which God gave to Abraham, where you previously lived only as a foreigner.'

and this

Genesis 28:10-14 Jacob left Beer-sheba and headed toward Charan... Suddenly he saw God standing over him. [God] said, 'I am God, Lord of Abraham your father, and Lord of Isaac. I will give to you and your descendants the land upon which you are lying. Your descendants will be like the dust of the earth. You shall spread out to the west, to the east, to the north, and to the south. All the families on earth will be blessed through you and your descendants.

and this

Joshua 1-4 After the death of Moses the servant of the Lord, it came to pass that the Lord spoke to Joshua the son of Nun, Moses' assistant, saying: "Moses My servant is dead. Now therefore, arise, go over this Jordan, you and all this people, to the land which I am giving to them--the children of Israel. Every place that the sole of your foot will tread upon I have given you, as I said to Moses. From the wilderness and this Lebanon as far as the great river, the River Euphrates, all the land of the Hittites, and to the Great Sea toward the going down of the sun, shall be your territory.

The Bible is quite clear that God gives the land of Israel to the children of Israel (Jacob), not to anyone else, and that's not an interpretation. Does the Qur'an state that the land of Israel is actually given to the Muslims? No, on the contrary:

"To Moses We [Allah] gave nine clear signs. Ask the Israelites how he [Moses] first appeared amongst them. Pharoah said to him: 'Moses, I can see that you are bewitched.' 'You know full well,' he [Moses] replied, 'that none but the Lord of the heavens and the earth has revealed these visible signs. Pharoah, you are doomed.'" "Pharoah sought to scare them [the Israelites] out of the land [of Israel]: but We [Allah] drowned him [Pharoah] together with all who were with him. Then We [Allah] said to the Israelites: 'Dwell in this land [the Land of Israel]. When the promise of the hereafter [End of Days] comes to be fulfilled, We [Allah] shall assemble you [the Israelites] all together [in the Land of Israel]." "We [Allah] have revealed the Qur'an with the truth, and with the truth it has come down. We have sent you [Muhammed] forth only to proclaim good news and to give warning." [Qur'an, "Night Journey," chapter 17:100-104]

"And [remember] when Moses said to his people: 'O my people, call in remembrance the favour of God unto you, when he produced prophets among you, made you kings, and gave to you what He had not given to any other among the peoples. O my people, enter the Holy Land which God has assigned unto you, and turn not back ignominiously, for then will ye be overthrown, to your own ruin.'" [Qur'an 5:20-21]

I'm not interpreting that either. Exactly where in Qur'an does it state that the land of Israel was promised by God to Muslims? Jayjg 19:29, 28 Oct 2004 (UTC)

The Holy Land was promised to the descendants of Abraham including both his sons, Isaac and Ishmael. That's what I wrote. You, as usual, quote selectively to suit your extremist agenda. Muslims see the covenant with Abraham as a promise to all the children of Abraham who maintain the covenant. When it says the Holy Land is promised to the Jews, that does not mean that only Jews are to receive the blessing. It means that Jews are included in the blessing. I think this is a futile exercise because we have entered into the realm of faith and there is no point arguing with a religious fanatic. But, since you asked......please read these sections and see if it helps you to understand.....You are saying, "My father promised me an inheritance". Your brother says, "My father promised me an inheritance too." Your response is, "You can't have an inheritance, my father promised me THE inheritance, the whole inheritance. Get lost!" This has been going on for 3000 years. Alberuni 03:56, 29 Oct 2004 (UTC)
The Bible many times clarifies which children of Abraham this promise applies to. I am not stating my own beliefs, which are irrelevant, but simply quoting the Biblical passages, which is also the position of Judaism. Islam does not use the Taurat for proofs, since it considers it corrupted, and you have nowhere shown that Islam considers Israel to be anything but the land of the Jews; your quotes are not relevant to that, mine are. Jayjg 16:54, 29 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Let's see what the Qur'an says about such people:

[5.12] And certainly Allah made a covenant with the children of Israel, and We raised up among them twelve chieftains; and Allah said: Surely I am with you; if you keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate and believe in My apostles and assist them and offer to Allah a goodly gift, I will most certainly cover your evil deeds, and I will most certainly cause you to enter into gardens beneath which rivers flow, but whoever disbelieves from among you after that, he indeed shall lose the right way. [5.13] But on account of their breaking their covenant We cursed them and made their hearts hard; they altered the words from their places and they neglected a portion of what they were reminded of; and you shall always discover treachery in them excepting a few of them; so pardon them and turn away; surely Allah loves those who do good (to others).

[5.82] Certainly you will find the most violent of people in enmity for those who believe (to be) the Jews and those who are polytheists, and you will certainly find the nearest in friendship to those who believe (to be) those who say: We are Christians; this is because there are priests and monks among them and because they do not behave proudly.

[3.67] Ibrahim was not a Jew nor a Christian but he was (an) upright (man), a Muslim, and he was not one of the polytheists.

[2.109] Many of the followers of the Book wish that they could turn you back into unbelievers after your faith, out of envy from themselves, (even) after the truth has become manifest to them; but pardon and forgive, so that Allah should bring about His command; surely Allah has power over all things. [2.110] And keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate and whatever good you send before for yourselves, you shall find it with Allah; surely Allah sees what you do. [2.111] And they say: None shall enter the garden (or paradise) except he who is a Jew or a Christian. These are their vain desires. Say: Bring your proof if you are truthful. [2.112] Yes! whoever submits himself entirely to Allah and he is the doer of good (to others) he has his reward from his Lord, and there is no fear for him nor shall he grieve. [2.113] And the Jews say: The Christians do not follow anything (good) and the Christians say: The Jews do not follow anything (good) while they recite the (same) Book. Even thus say those who have no knowledge, like to what they say; so Allah shall judge between them on the day of resurrection in what they differ. [2.114] And who is more unjust than he who prevents (men) from the masjids of Allah, that His name should be remembered in them, and strives to ruin them? (As for) these, it was not proper for them that they should have entered them except in fear; they shall meet with disgrace in this world, and they shall have great chastisement in the hereafter. [2.115] And Allah's is the East and the West, therefore, whither you turn, thither is Allah's purpose; surely Allah is Amplegiving, Knowing. [2.116] And they say: Allah has taken to himself a son. Glory be to Him; rather, whatever is in the heavens and the earth is His; all are obedient to Him. [2.117] Wonderful Originator of the heavens and the earth, and when He decrees an affair, He only says to it, Be, so there it is. [2.118] And those who have no knowledge say: Why does not Allah speak to us or a sign come to us? Even thus said those before them, the like of what they say; their hearts are all alike. Indeed We have made the communications clear for a people who are sure. [2.119] Surely We have sent you with the truth as a bearer of good news and as a warner, and you shall not be called upon to answer for the companions of the flaming fire. [2.120] And the Jews will not be pleased with you, nor the Christians until you follow their religion. Say: Surely Allah's guidance, that is the (true) guidance. And if you follow their desires after the knowledge that has come to you, you shall have no guardian from Allah, nor any helper. [2.121] Those to whom We have given the Book read it as it ought to be read. These believe in it; and whoever disbelieves in it, these it is that are the losers. [2.122] O children of Israel, call to mind My favor which I bestowed on you and that I made you excel the nations. [2.123] And.be on your guard against a day when no soul shall avail another in the least neither shall any compensation be accepted from it, nor shall intercession profit it, nor shall they be helped. [2.124] And when his Lord tried Ibrahim with certain words, he fulfilled them. He said: Surely I will make you an Imam of men. Ibrahim said: And of my offspring? My covenant does not include the unjust, said He. [2.125] And when We made the House a pilgrimage for men and a (place of) security, and: Appoint for yourselves a place of prayer on the standing-place of Ibrahim. And We enjoined Ibrahim and Ismail saying: Purify My House for those who visit (it) and those who abide (in it) for devotion and those who bow down (and) those who prostrate themselves. [2.126] And when Ibrahim said: My Lord, make it a secure town and provide its people with fruits, such of them as believe in Allah and the last day. He said: And whoever disbelieves, I will grant him enjoyment for a short while, then I will drive him to the chastisement of the fire; and it is an evil destination. [2.127] And when Ibrahim and Ismail raised the foundations of the House: Our Lord! accept from us; surely Thou art the Hearing, the Knowing: [2.128] Our Lord! and make us both submissive to Thee and (raise) from our offspring a nation submitting to Thee, and show us our ways of devotion and turn to us (mercifully), surely Thou art the Oft-returning (to mercy), the Merciful. [2.129] Our Lord! and raise up in them an Apostle from among them who shall recite to them Thy communications and teach them the Book and the wisdom, and purify them; surely Thou art the Mighty, the Wise. [2.130] And who forsakes the religion of Ibrahim but he who makes himself a fool, and most certainly We chose him in this world, and in the hereafter he is most surely among the righteous. [2.131] When his Lord said to him, Be a Muslim, he said: I submit myself to the Lord of the worlds. [2.132] And the same did Ibrahim enjoin on his sons and (so did) Yaqoub. O my sons! surely Allah has chosen for you (this) faith, therefore die not unless you are Muslims. [2.133] Nay! were you witnesses when death visited Yaqoub, when he said to his sons: What will you serve after me? They said: We will serve your God and the God of your fathers, Ibrahim and Ismail and Ishaq, one God only, and to Him do we submit. [2.134] This is a people that have passed away; they shall have what they earned and you shall have what you earn, and you shall not be called upon to answer for what they did. [2.135] And they say: Be Jews or Christians, you will be on the right course. Say: Nay! (we follow) the religion of Ibrahim, the Hanif, and he was not one of the polytheists. [2.136] Say: We believe in Allah and (in) that which had been revealed to us, and (in) that which was revealed to Ibrahim and Ismail and Ishaq and Yaqoub and the tribes, and (in) that which was given to Musa and Isa, and (in) that which was given to the prophets from their Lord, we do not make any distinction between any of them, and to Him do we submit. [2.137] If then they believe as you believe in Him, they are indeed on the right course, and if they turn back, then they are only in great opposition, so Allah will suffice you against them, and He is the Hearing, the Knowing. [2.138] (Receive) the baptism of Allah, and who is better than Allah in baptising? and Him do we serve. [2.139] Say: Do you dispute with us about Allah, and He is our Lord and your Lord, and we shall have our deeds and you shall have your deeds, and we are sincere to Him. [2.140] Nay! do you say that Ibrahim and Ismail and Yaqoub and the tribes were Jews or Christians? Say: Are you better knowing or Allah? And who is more unjust than he who conceals a testimony that he has from Allah? And Allah is not at all heedless of what you do. [2.141] This is a people that have passed away; they shall have what they earned and you shall have what you earn, and you shall not be called upon to answer for what they did. [2.142] The fools among the people will say: What has turned them from their qiblah which they had? Say: The East and the West belong only to Allah; He guides whom He likes to the right path. [2.143] And thus We have made you a medium (just) nation that you may be the bearers of witness to the people and (that) the Apostle may be a bearer of witness to you; and We did not make that which you would have to be the qiblah but that We might distinguish him who follows the Apostle from him who turns back upon his heels, and this was surely hard except for those whom Allah has guided aright; and Allah was not going to make your faith to be fruitless; most surely Allah is Affectionate, Merciful to the people. [2.144] Indeed We see the turning of your face to heaven, so We shall surely turn you to a qiblah which you shall like; turn then your face towards the Sacred Mosque, and wherever you are, turn your face towards it, and those who have been given the Book most surely know that it is the truth from their Lord; and Allah is not at all heedless of what they do. [2.145] And even if you bring to those who have been given the Book every sign they would not follow your qiblah, nor can you be a follower of their qiblah, neither are they the followers of each other's qiblah, and if you follow their desires after the knowledge that has come to you, then you shall most surely be among the unjust. [2.146] Those whom We have given the Book recognize him as they recognize their sons, and a party of them most surely conceal the truth while they know (it). [2.147] The truth is from your Lord, therefore you should not be of the doubters. [2.148] And every one has a direction to which he should turn, therefore hasten to (do) good works; wherever you are, Allah will bring you all together; surely Allah has power over all things.

[2.188] And do not swallow up your property among yourselves by false means, neither seek to gain access thereby to the judges, so that you may swallow up a part of the property of men wrongfully while you know. [2.189] They ask you concerning the new moon. Say: They are times appointed for (the benefit of) men, and (for) the pilgrimage; and it is not righteousness that you should enter the houses at their backs, but righteousness is this that one should guard (against evil); and go into the houses by their doors and be careful (of your duty) to Allah, that you may be successful. [2.190] And fight in the way of Allah with those who fight with you, and do not exceed the limits, surely Allah does not love those who exceed the limits. [2.191] And kill them wherever you find them, and drive them out from whence they drove you out, and persecution is severer than slaughter, and do not fight with them at the Sacred Mosque until they fight with you in it, but if they do fight you, then slay them; such is the recompense of the unbelievers. [2.192] But if they desist, then surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful. [2.193] And fight with them until there is no persecution, and religion should be only for Allah, but if they desist, then there should be no hostility except against the oppressors.

[62.5] The likeness of those who were charged with the Taurat, then they did not observe it, is as the likeness of the ass bearing books, evil is the likeness of the people who reject the communications of Allah; and Allah does not guide the unjust people. [62.6] Say: O you who are Jews, if you think that you are the favorites of Allah to the exclusion of other people, then invoke death If you are truthful. [62.7] And they will never invoke it because of what their hands have sent before; and Allah is Cognizant of the unjust. [62.8] Say: (As for) the death from which you flee, that will surely overtake you, then you shall be sent back to the Knower of the unseen and the seen, and He will inform you of that which you did.

Hard to imagine anyone but a religious extremist would post this lengthy list of irrelevant Qur'an quotes bashing Jews. Jayjg 02:19, 31 Oct 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Arab settlers

My proposed changes:

 The Muslim Caliphate conquered the land from the Eastern Roman Empire (Byzantines) in the 
 seventh century and attracted Arab settlers.

to:

 The Muslim Caliphate conquered the land from the Eastern Roman Empire (Byzantines) in the 
 seventh century and the region became Arabized as most of the Palestinians took the customs of their 
 invaders.

Because there is no evidence of a population movement taking place. Therefore most of the population must have converted.

There's little evidence of anything. How about a compromise incorporating both views? Jayjg 03:12, 14 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Why would we want to incorporate the view that Arabs settled in Palestine when it is wrong? At the time of the Muslim Conquest, Arabs was the people in Saudi Arabia, they didn't do massive emigrations all over the world instead they managed to gradually convert their subjects. Read some of the Wikipedia articles about Muhammed and related subjects and you will see. Palestine-info 14:41, 14 Oct 2004 (UTC)

See [1]:

The Muslim rulers did not force their religion on the Palestinians, and more than a century passed before the majority converted to Islam. The remaining Christians and Jews were considered “People of the Book.”

My new proposition:

 The Muslim Caliphate conquered the land from the Eastern Roman Empire 
 (Byzantines) in the seventh century.The Muslim rulers did not force their 
 religion on the Palestinians, and more than a century passed before the majority 
 converted to Islam. The remaining Christians and Jews were considered 
 "People of the Book."   
 [2]

Palestine-info 14:52, 14 Oct 2004 (UTC)

The last proposal I don't think is very NPOV: it sounds like it's trying to pre-emptively defend the Muslim rulers against an objection that hasn't been raised in the article. I agree that whether there was population movement or not is debatable (there likely was a combination of movement and Arabization, as with the Hellenization of the Macedonian Empire centuries earlier). I would support your first proposal, except that it seems anachronistic to talk about "Palestinians" in the context of the 7th century. There's no evidence of a separate national identity in that era, and if it's to be mentioned at all it would need a lengthy discussion, which is out of place here (especially when more neutral terms are available):
  The Muslim Caliphate conquered the land from the Eastern Roman Empire (Byzantines)
  in the seventh century and the region became Arabized as most of the inhabitants took
  the customs of their invaders.

IMO this addresses your objections to the use of the term "settlers" while maintaining neutrality. --Delirium 20:08, Oct 14, 2004 (UTC)

That is nonesesnse. Most "Arabized" people in Palestine at that time were Arab population waves that came after the Arab invasion. Most of the Palestinins are infact, the offsprings of the Arab invaders. Stop changing history for the Palestinian propaganda. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.108.101.7 (talk) 16:13, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
That wording is ok for now. Palestine-info 10:11, 26 Oct 2004 (UTC)
I strongly object to the removal of the word "settlers" in regards to the 7th century Arabs as an attempt to use this word for Jews only and add negative connotations to it. We at WP don't rewrite history or emotionally distort it. ←Humus sapiens←Talk 08:26, 17 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Agreed, such connotations should be qualified in their own respective article(s). El_C