Talk:Israel's unilateral disengagement plan/Archive 1

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[edit] Update article

This article looks like it has been abandoned in the last 11 months, and reads liake any other article elucidating a current events. However, after that period of time, the article should have less information on poll/public reaction, details, etc. And have more information and links to background, aftermath, etc. This article barely mentions the relationship to diengagement and operation Summer Rains. --Arithmomaniac38 19:11, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Re: Photo

As far as I know, there is no settlement called Adumim in the Gaza Strip. Ma'ale Adumim, Kfar Adumim and the Mishor Adumim Industrial Complex all lie east of Jerusalem, in the West Bank.

- Correct. This photo is not related to the article. Removed.

[edit] "International Community"

since when does 'international community' get capital letters? "International Community"?

[edit] Why the page move?

Stevertigo, why did you move this page? Jayjg (talk) 21:46, 18 Apr 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Likud Party Decisions

There is absolutely no justification for catagarizing loyalist Likud party MKs as "rebel." This was a pejorative used by the media in an attempt to descredit their actions. Those who follow the events closely know that the designation is pure baloney. The Likud Party Central Committee, as the executive arm of the Likud, has overwhelmingly rejected first the creation of a Palestinian state and then the expulsion plan. What polls showed are irrelevent to the topic. As an example, 2004 polls showed Bush losing, polls showed Bush winning, he won. The polls are irrelevent now. Are you going to question Bush's legitimacy as president based on polls saying he'd lose? I dont think so.

Those MKs who have voted with their party platform and against Sharon are by definition loyalist MKs. MKs who are nothing more than political hacks, who are beholden to Sharon for their political advancement, like MK Aflalo and others are rebel MKs, who have by all purposes shifted away from Likud ideology and adopted Labor policy for personal political gain. So again, you have no legs to stand on this issue. Parrot the media somewhere else.

Guy Montag 14:48, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I've removed the designation, and other generally irrelevant, POV, or out of date stuff. Jayjg (talk) 07:16, 26 Apr 2005 (UTC)

The poll cited by Jayjg was not a popularity poll, but, as far as I could ascertain, specifically related to voting trends. In any case, I am OK with Jayjg's last edit. --AladdinSE 04:39, Apr 27, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Opposition to the plan

User: Jayjg has removed links citing that they are "stop spamming your anti-pullout links into these article" But these are links that directly show and illustrate and expend on the text which describes the Israel right wing opposition to the plan

Don't link to your own work; Wikipedia is not a vehicle for self-promotion. Jayjg (talk) 18:22, 20 May 2005 (UTC)

Please address the content of the link from it's encyclopidic value. These are not photos which show a sepcific person or product and as such are not promotion. If you object the CONTENT of the photos address this issue. Don't hide behind a "removing self promotion" You first removed links to photos on this page because they did not fit your POV so don't try a new "winning argument"

It is against Wikipedia policy to self-promote; if you don't follow Wikipedia policy you will face sanctions. Jayjg (talk) 18:47, 20 May 2005 (UTC)

You do not understand what self promotion is. These photos are part of covergae of this subject When you first removed them on May 16 you provided THIS argument: "please stop spamming your anti-pullout links into these article"

So the issue is not "self promotion" but your promotion of your POV. Threats will get you no where. Please filloow guidelines for dispute resolution and provide an environment free of intimidations.

user Jayjg has revereted 3 times in the last 24 hours. In violation of the 3RR rule.

You still don't understand the 3RR, do you? Even after I explained it to you many times. It's more than 3 times in 24 hours. Get it? More than 3 times in 24 hours. Not 3 times in 24 hours. And you lecture me about Wikipedia policy. And why do you refuse to get yourself a Wikipedia login or sign your comments? Jayjg (talk)

[edit] Re: Speculation about the future

Removed specualtions about what israel do or will not do. Nither Bush, nor Sharon know what israel will do and how the control over gaza will look like. An Encyclopedia is NOT the place for such specualtion

Well Sharon for sure doesn't... not the way he is now.. Mtoussieh 07:57, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
This article is about the "disengagement plan." The info you blanked was about that plan, and it need not be pertinent to what will actually happen. In general, you should try to find consensus on the talk page before making major changes to an article. P.S. You can sign your user name/IP address by typing 4 tildes (~~~~). That way, people don't have to look into the page history to find out who you are. Thanks, HKT talk 17:19, 24 July 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Headline text

Consequences of Hitnatkut

I am favorous of the article portraying the consequences the hitnatkut brought us deeper. you know... the war in Lebanon, the rupture of society, the Hamas going up in power, even violence in Amona... it should be done in an objective way as fitting the encyclopedia but with no freight! AM HANETSAJ LO MEFAJED! Mtoussieh 07:54, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Hebrew Name

See [1] Cinemeth 01:50, 3 August 2005 (UTC)

Sorry, honest mistake...--Doron 07:10, 3 August 2005 (UTC)
yeah, yeah carry on, carry on!

[edit] These statements by User:68.38.199.57 were removed.

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Israel_unilateral_disengagement_plan_of_2004&diff=20485639&oldid=20480171 :

'The poll results show that it is manifestly a Jewish opposition, not a US opposition. This information is biased or the poll sampling is made upon a particular group. Since this is one of the web's unbiased sourcebook, this should be kindly revised.'
'Another thing is, The Jewish should have known better how it feels like living without a citizen identity. Thus, objecting to one's desire to set up his own state would not be a decent attitute.'

Don't think they belong to en encyclopedic article. -- 199.71.174.100 19:42, 7 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] American opposition

I have deleted the whole paragraph “American opposition” about the “poll”. The poll was commissioned by the Zionist Organization of America, an organization that opposes the Gaza pullout and the poll results are extensively used by it for propaganda purposes (http://www.zoa.org/special/2005NationalPoll.pdf). The questions of the poll are also a good example on how to reach desired answers by asking manipulative questions, like: "Are you in favour or opposed to Israel’s unilateral withdrawal from a section of Gaza and Northern Samaria and forcing 10,000 Israeli Jews from their homes and businesses?" Such questions, the following results and the whole thing being commissioned by a group with an “agenda” disqualifies it for use in an encyclopaedia. noclador

Polls are always biased based on the questions. The poll itself is still of note, and of interest. I've restored it. Jayjg (talk) 03:41, 8 August 2005 (UTC)
Why is a biased US poll of a Israel event of interest to encyclopaedia users? And why should this poll be the only one represented, when there are dozens out there that show huge support for the pullout in Israel and the US? Since you agree that this poll is biased and a cornerstone of Wikipedia is obviously neutrality, why should this poll be on this page? And to whom is it of interest to have this exactly this poll here on display? in my opinion this paragraph is way to biased and violates the Wikipedia neutrality and the Wikipedia goal of not advocating one view or the other!
So find some other polls on the subject to provide balance. Jayjg (talk) 04:04, 8 August 2005 (UTC)
I have added now a poll by the Anti-Defamation League and I also have stricken those passages from the paragraph that claim the American people oppose the pullout. also I have taken out those lines from the ZOA paragraph that do not concern the proposed pullout, but instead refer to a possible Palestinian State- something, that should be discussed on the appropriate page. noclador


If Netanyahu is an "internationally known speciallist in terrorism" I'm the sexiest man in the world!! --horzer 20:21, August 8, 2005 (UTC) And btw, everybody knows that he cares about the disengagement as he cares about poor people: nothing!!! His move is directed to the expected elections after the disengagement. His line or most of it must be deleted from the entry (in "chronology"). The terrorist act against the Druze in Shfaram must be included, because is directly related to the disengagement program (the act was terrorism because was a violent act directed toward civilians with the intention to disrupt a political process).

(1.) To assert in the article that Netanyahu was lying and that he cares nothing about the disengagement would be in violation of WP:NPOV and WP:NOR. The article can only present his claims, without judging them. (2.) There is no way to know if the Shfaram attack is related to the disengagement. More likely, the shooter went berzerk. There's also talk among some of a GSS setup job, etc. HKT talk 20:44, 8 August 2005 (UTC)
Is Netanyahu indeed an "internationally recognized expert on Arab terrorism"?! In Israel he's just another politician with an agenda. I know he wrote a couple of books, but by whom is he recognized as an expert? Where did he acquire his expertise? His article says nothing about this expertise.--Doron 07:51, 9 August 2005 (UTC)

"Smith, a senior member of the Senate Armed Services Committee, said he invited Netanyahu because he is a "world-renowned expert on terrorism whose vast knowledge will be very helpful to the people of New Hampshire, as we engage in this long campaign against terrorism."" [2] There are other sources.Cinemeth 23:03, 9 August 2005 (UTC)

An American politician complimenting an Israeli politician by calling him "a world-renowned expert on terrorism" doesn't make him a world-renowned expert on terrorism. He was probably invited to speak as a former Prime Minister of Israel, not as an expert. He's not even renowned as an expert on terrorism in Israel, he's just a politician that has the war on terror high on his agenda, not a scholar, as the article phrasing may suggest. Calling him an expert is POV, unless you can refer us to an authoritative soure calling him an expert. Otherwise he's as much an expert as Goerge "War on Terror" Bush is.--Doron 07:15, 10 August 2005 (UTC)

Shortly after September 11, 2001, Benjamin Netanyahu appeared before the House Committee on Government Reform in order to discuss the issue of terrorism. I hope these links sufficiently clarify that Netanyahu is "a world-renowned expert on terrorism." [3] links to Netanyahu's speech before the House Committee, [4] links to another hearing in front of the House Committee where Netanyahu spoke. Also, [5] links to Netanyahu's books, a few of which are written specifically about terrorism. Enjoy.Cinemeth 23:48, 10 August 2005 (UTC)

No, these are political speaches, and the fact he wrote books doesn't make him an expert (the Amazon link doesn't work, by the way). You are yet to provide an authoritative source (like a research body, not his own promotion website) referring to him as an expert, let alone a world-renowned one. Even his article says nothing of the sort. Therefore, I will remove this POV description unless you can prove me wrong.--Doron 00:04, 11 August 2005 (UTC)


Is true that I can't put words or intentions in Netanyahu's mouth. But to treat the Shfaram terrorist attack as a "berzerk guy" or lone wolf is like saying that the murder of Rabin was not politically motivated. GSS setup job? What's GSS? Which kind of sick person could think of a conspiracy theory in this case? (if you know settlers, and specially settlers from Tapuach, you know what they're capable of: these people openly say in the media that "a good arab is a dead arab"). All Israeli media (at least,all important media) and the Prime Minister have called this act a "terrorist attack", and the perpetrator "a terrorist". The act is directly linked to the disengagement process, trying to disrupt it. This person shoot Druze arabs knowing that they serve in the IDF (the Army).--horzer 21:52, August 9, 2005 (UTC)
And btw, I'm removing "Arab" terror at least from the phrase. What Arab terror is? Is like "Asian" terror? Or "Hispanic" terror? Clearly NPOV.--horzer 21:54, August 9, 2005 (UTC)
I have the strange impression that a settler is writing the entire article... the POV of the article is at the right of mainstream israeli thinking.--horzer 22:10, August 9, 2005 (UTC)
Calling the attack terrorism is not the same thing as calling it a protest against the disengagement plan. There's zero evidence for the latter. I'm quite puzzled by your slander of settlers; I do know some and they don't think like that. Very few do, and to say that many do is only to regurgitate horrendous propaganda. And I don't understand why it is POV to call terrorism by Arabs "Arab terrorism"; if it would be carried out by South-East-Asians, it would be "South-East-Asian terrorism." Actually, "Islamic fundamentalist terrorism" is probably better, given that there are plenty of East-Asian Muslims who also carry out terrorist attacks (e.g. Bali), and the "Islamic fundamntalist terrorism" term would be more inclusive. P.S. I don't understand why someone would have to be "sick" in order to suspect a conspiracy; please look up the word "sick" in the dictionary. HKT talk 22:23, 9 August 2005 (UTC)
Terror in Israel and Occupied territories comes in many flavours. I would call it "Palestinian Nationalist terror" (because this is the objective of those groups doing it), or simply "Palestinian Terrorism"; the problem with that is related to those Palestinians that don't share the terrorists views. The political views of extreme right-wing settlers like those of the Kach (illegal) party are widely known and they don't try to hide those ideas. I was wrong in saying "settlers" generally. I'm sorry about that.--horzer 22:44, August 9, 2005 (UTC)
I'm glad that you cleared things up about the settlers. As far as Kach, I don't think that their offical line is "a good arab..."; there are few who hold this view. Kach officially calls for expulsion of Arabs from Isaeli territory, not for killing non-militant Arabs. I understand your point regarding the term "Palestinian terrorism", but I don't think that it implicates non-terrorists by association. "French cuisine" doesn't imply that all French are good cooks. HKT talk 00:24, 10 August 2005 (UTC)
You're right. But Hitler also talked of "transfer" at the beggining. He forgot to tell the world that they wanted to transfer people to an oven.--horzer 23:37, August 11, 2005 (UTC)
The U.S. said that they wanted to transfer the Japanese to internment camps during WWII, and they never ended up "transferring people to an oven." It's interesting, though, that you would prefer to link Kach to Hitler for precedent. Perhaps you can read minds? P.S. Even Hitler was trying to transfer the Jews to other countries; no one was willing to take the Jews in as refugees or immigrants, so he changed the plan. Is Kach even worse than Hitler? Please give me a direct answer. HKT talk 23:45, 11 August 2005 (UTC)
Kach worse than Hitler? How should I know? If they blow up the Temple Mount maybe they can provoque a little funny local nuclear war. But, who knows? Is not a secret that Kach platform is openly racist, in a way that even the Nuremberg Laws weren't (those of 1935). The case of the Japanese-American is regretable, but the U.S. goverment never intended to throw its citizens at the other side of the border. Anyway, worse or marginally better than Hitler, those ideas are not the ones I want even close to me or close to the country where I live.--horzer 03:54, August 12, 2005 (UTC) BTW, if you want proof: those people were at the funeral of that terrorist, the boy from Rishon LeTzion that decided to empty his weapon on a bus in Shfaram --horzer 03:54, August 12, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Israeli opinion polls

Article states "Recent polls on support for the plan have varied widely, though consistently showing support for the plan in the 50-60% range, and opposition in the 30-40% range." What are the actual figures, are they wide apart or consistent? DM Andy 19:18, 9 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Widely publicized

I am reverting the discription of the pro-disengagement caravan to "widely publicized" based on the following links: [6] [7] [8] Just because someone lives in Israel and may have not heard of the ads promoting the caravan dubbed "Leaving Gaza - Returning to Zionism" does not mean that it was not widely publicized.Cinemeth 00:43, 10 August 2005 (UTC)


[edit] Re. Polls

From what I have seen (in polls), the majority of people in Israel do not support it, but a majority does not 'oppose' it either. In other words, when questioned 'do you support the Gaza plan according to PM Ariel Sharon?', the majority said no. But when asked 'do you oppose the disengagement plan?' the majority said that they did not.

I dont know how this could be interpreted, but at first glance it would imply that most people in Israel are not happy about the plan and would not *back* it, but many arent strongly opined enough on the matter to declare their true *opposition* to it. Probably because many feel that after all, we truly just want to have peace and live without controlling a foreign population. Sort of a leap of faith in an impossible situation. Only it happens to be a leap in the wrong direction. Just as when one is faced with a dead-end, one can have faith and jump off a cliff, or one can also have faith and step back. The case here is not one of stepping back, but rather a case of jumping off a cliff. Stepping back would be to declare 'we're in a very tight spot and it isnt pleasant- but this is the reality. We will stay in Gaza and continue fighting terrorism with a strong hand. How long this will be? we dont know. But this is what has to be done.' This was the type of message that outgoing IDF commander Yaalon explained. He said it was a disconnection from reality to believe that this plan would bring any type of gain. He said that we have to face the fact that we will have to have an active IDF in every way, for the foreseeable future. This isnt to put down people's hopes, but it is the reality nonetheless. Similar- though to a very different extreme- to explaining to someone that for the next 50 years you will have to go each and every day to a workplace and simply do endless work. You'll need to do this every day in order to live. It isnt a choice, but part of life (for many people.)

Incredible, the anti-disengagement mass rally at Rabin Square was five hours ago and here in Wikipedia there are photographs already!! Oh, technology... Ah, I was also there (I went to see, even when I don't share the political position of the right).--horzer 23:45, August 11, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Yasser Arafat?

All the way through this article, reference is made to Israeli PM Yasser Arafat. Ariel Sharon, perhaps?

[edit] Number affected

How many people are being moved in the current closure? I didn't notice that mentioned anywhere. Rmhermen 15:46, August 15, 2005 (UTC)

Exact figures differ, but around 9000 people. For example, see:
--noösfractal 08:01, 16 August 2005 (UTC)


Here is the breakdown:

In the Gaza Strip (all 21 settlements):
Settlement Establishment Date Pre-Dis. Population according to CNN Pre-Dis. Population according to MideastWeb
Elei Sinai 1982 407 350
Nissanit 1982 1064 1050
Dugit 1990 79 80
Morag 1972 221 220
Kfar Darom 1970 491 365
Netzarim 1972 496 390
Neve Dekalim 1980 2671 2500
Atzmona 1978 646 650
Kerem Atzmona 2001 24 70
Tel Katifa 1992 60 75
Bedolah 1986 219 220
Shirat Hayam 2000 40 50
Ganei Tal 1979 400 400
Katif 1978 404 405
Gadid 1982 351 310
Netzer Hazani 1973 461 410
Kfar Yam 1983 10 20
Slav 1980 50 50
Rafi'ah Yam 1984 143 150
Pe'at Sadeh 1993 104 105
Gan Or 1983 351 350
Total: 8692 8220
In the West Bank (4 settlements):
Settlement Establishment Date Pre-Dis. Population according to CNN Pre-Dis. Population according to MideastWeb
Kadim 1983 142 170
Ganim 1983 147 175
Chomesh 1980 181 220
Sanur 1982 112 110
Total: 582 675
Anyone have any objections on moving these data tables to the main article (instead of the simple list of settlement names it currently shows)?

--altmany 13:05, August 22, 2005 (UTC)

Here is a third set of figures, often differing from the above even in the date of establishment: [9] (Shockwave map: mouseover gives details for each locality.) A difference in the establishment date can be due to the fact that some places were military installations before becoming settlements. An example of a big difference: '"Slav" is called "Shaliv", established 1987. This is source (Haaretz) is closer to the action than either of the above. --Zero 21:52, 22 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Image copyright disagreement

ThomasK is persisting in deleting the phased withdrawal illustration which I added to the Chronology section. First the user said "removed image copyright violation" and after I returned it, stating "This is fair use, not copyright violation" ThomasK deleted again this time saying "probably copyright violation, otherwise give evidence on talk page" (italics mine). The Fair use tag used for the image specifically says, quote: "This work is copyrighted. The individual who uploaded this work and first used it in an article, and subsequent persons who place it into articles assert that this qualifies as fair use of the material under United States copyright law." This image was used in an online news article by the BBC and the source and copyright information is clearly stated in the image upload notes. Now, if you believe there is still some violation, then surely it falls to you to provide evidence and start the Talk discussion explaining why this image should be disallowed. Nevertheless, here is the Talk section you requested. Kindly stop deleting without pointing out the specific violation. --AladdinSE 08:10, August 16, 2005 (UTC)

Previously on Wikipedia, images like this from the BBC were deleted. No reason to lose your temper. --ThomasK 08:54, August 16, 2005 (UTC)

I'm right. Another user, User:Zoney removed the image,too. --ThomasK 13:13, August 16, 2005 (UTC)

I have not lost my temper in the least. You have yet to state the violation. Use of images from on line news articles falls under the fair use category. Once again, please state why you think this image does not qualify for fair use, and cite the appropriate WP policy page that backs you up. Thank you. --AladdinSE 17:45, August 16, 2005 (UTC)

It is wrong that all "images from online news articles falls under the fair use category". The BBC made this map, their copyright. It refers just to some Israeli government sources.--ThomasK 20:28, August 16, 2005 (UTC)

Who made it is irrelevant. The BBC's copyright is noted in the upload notes, and the sources cited on the illustration are pluses not minuses. You have yet to cite any Wikipedia policy page that specifically disallows the fair use category in this instance. --AladdinSE 07:55, August 17, 2005 (UTC)

Read it for yourself: Fair use ; Wikipedia:Fair use. Why didn't you make a map , instead you "ripped off" a map from the BBC? Everybody can check the BBC news website of their own.--ThomasK 08:25, August 17, 2005 (UTC)

I have read it several times, it supports the categorization of the image as Fair Use. I didn't make a map myself for the simple reason that I am not a cartographer. The fair use tag is clear. The image was used in a previous article, it's utilization in a non-commercial manner is fair use. Copyright and source have always been duly noted. Wikipedia is a non-profit organization and the BBC allows downloading and use of its materials for non-commercial purposes, according to its copyright policy. Also, consider your logic. If all details that could simply be checked out by readers on their own at the BBC or anywhere else should not be included then why have an encyclopedia at all? We would just have a collection of links pointing to news sights. The ideal solution that would render academic all debate about the use of the image is for the BBC to inform WP directly if they have any objection. Since this article is a hot-button current issue I hope they do so expeditiously. --AladdinSE 11:43, August 17, 2005 (UTC)

Finally, a public domain map is in the article. --ThomasK 04:23, August 18, 2005 (UTC)

It is a bare-bones map of Gaza that does not show a single Israeli settlement. Considering this is an article about dismantling those settlements, I'd say we need a lot more. Furthermore, you seem too reliant on the public domain, Wikipedia is full of copyrighted images either with specific licenses or permissions, or used under the Fair Use doctrine. Public domain images constitute a minority. --AladdinSE 08:20, August 18, 2005 (UTC)

I'm not too reliant on the public domain. However it is far better than to ripp off a BBC map.--ThomasK 10:41, August 18, 2005 (UTC)

"Ripp off" implies theft and a false or hidden provenance. The source and BBC copyright were clearly noted from the very first upload with a clear Fair Use tag. Thousands of images like these are used in Wikipedia. --AladdinSE 09:44, August 19, 2005 (UTC)

Many fair use image are used in Wikipedia, but not from the BBC. Once again, there is already a weblink to a disengagement plan map in the external link section. For my side, this discussion is closed. --ThomasK 03:55, August 20, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Map

This article could really use a map. Anyone have one? --P3d0 16:47, August 16, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Mess

This article isn't actually that helpful. It has far too many opinion polls and not enough factual information. We need a map, but most of all we need an actual description of what is happening - we don't even have a list of the settlements being abandoned. Yes this article should cover the controversy and the politics but not at the expense of describing the event! Secretlondon 23:55, 16 August 2005 (UTC)

Also no reference to the fact that families who leave voluntarily are getting a huge amount of benefits, including $250,000 in cash. And that most are headed for other settlements in the Palestinian West Bank!
Then just add it in and source it. As simple as that.

I added just such a map as you are talking about, but it keeps getting deleted because of a mistaken belief that it violates copyright, when in fact it falls under fair use. I have just returned the illustration. --AladdinSE 07:52, August 17, 2005 (UTC)

and the image has been removed again, per official wikipedia policy. The image[10] is currently taged as a likely copyright violation. Until that issue is resolved, the image should not be added back again. Eclipsed 09:37, 17 August 2005 (UTC)

Agreed, as far as awaiting resolution before reposting. By the way, it was tagged as a possible copyright violation, not likely copyright violation. --AladdinSE 12:26, August 17, 2005 (UTC)

Some nice status reports from Haaretz:

--noösfractal 18:05, 17 August 2005 (UTC)

Finally, it is better with a public domain map in the article. --ThomasK 04:24, August 18, 2005 (UTC)

Better? Hardly. The map does not show a single Israeli settlement. Public Domain is great, but very rare. Most images in Wikipedia are copyrighted and used with permission/licence or under Fair Use. --AladdinSE 08:27, August 18, 2005 (UTC)

There is already a weblink to a disengagement plan map in the external link section. --ThomasK 10:52, August 18, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Time to rename this article?

Proposal for appropriate name for this article. Why not replace plan with process or use: Israel Gaza disengagement (or withdrawal, evacuation, pullout)--Ezeu 00:34, 19 August 2005 (UTC)

Agreed. I suggest "Gaza: Israeli settlement removal". Joffan 05:03, 19 August 2005 (UTC)

I disagree with the names -- the disengagement isn't limited to Gaza. brozen 08:35, August 19, 2005 (UTC)

Well, brozen, you ought to make a suggestion then. Ezeu's point was (I think) that it's no longer just a plan, it's actually happening. How about "Israeli settlement removal 2005"? Joffan 22:02, 19 August 2005 (UTC)
I support that title. --Benna 06:21, 20 August 2005 (UTC)
Israel removes settlements every so often, so the title wouldn't encompass the whole subject if Israel removed any other settlements this year (and that's not speaking about anything it's done up until now...) -- and that's not the purpose anyhow. Any way you look at it, though, this is a unilateral disengagement and that's how it will be known throughout history. The name has to include that and mention the West Bank. brozen 20:54, August 20, 2005 (UTC)
I propose "Israeli 2005 disengagement". "Disengagement" is what it is called by everyone, for better or for worse, so this name uniquely identifies the subject. The word "unilateral" is a POV coloration of the name and should not be present. --Zero 03:04, 21 August 2005 (UTC)
The Israeli government calls it a unilateral disengagement, which makes it the name of it, regardless of whether it is POV or not (don't forget, the word disengagement is also the word the Israeli government uses -- and thus was adopted by everyone else). I suggest that we wait until it is over and see how it's called afterwards. After all, it is still a plan until it's over. brozen 05:57, August 21, 2005 (UTC)
You are mistaken. The offficial name, as the article correctly states at the beginning, is תוכנית ההתנתקות which just means "disengagement plan". The "unilateral" in the title of our article was put there by the article creator to make a point. That is not acceptable use of article titles. --Zero 06:09, 21 August 2005 (UTC)
The plan, as described by the Israeli PMO, is referred to as a plan of unilateral disengagement. Look at section 1, second paragraph. Therefore, this is not POV -- but rather the official Israeli government position as to what the disengagement actually is. brozen 15:44, August 21, 2005 (UTC)
You are just proving my point. It is Israeli government POV about the plan, not a neutral name of of the plan. We should use a neutral title. --Zero 15:54, 21 August 2005 (UTC)
I don't agree with your claim, which is essentially that those who create something have no right to name it. FWIW, it is also an American government POV about the plan [11]. brozen 18:24, August 21, 2005 (UTC)
Regardless of the official name, the word "unilateral" doesn't really add much information that is so important it should belong in the title as opposed to just in the article text. See 7 July 2005 London bombings for example - no mention in the title of the fact the bombings were in the public transport or the fact they were carried out by suicide bombers - this info is interesting but belongs in the text, not title. The title should only be short enough to enable a unique identification. Zero's "Israeli 2005 disengagement" fits the bill IMHO. --altmany 23:34, August 22, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] also known as samaria

I'm not trying to be confrontational, but why is this "needed"? --Uncle Bungle 02:42, 22 August 2005 (UTC)

Because its a small word used to make a big statement. If one wants it there or not depends entirely on ones point of view. You can use POV arguments both ways. It's a Catch-22. - Ezeu 02:57, 22 August 2005 (UTC)
Hi Uncle Bungle and Ezeu, the reason I added the "also known as" is that there was a bit of back and forth over the issue between other editors, [12] [13] [14] so as a compromise I added "also known as Samaria," [15] which is accurate without prioritizing that name over northern West Bank. SlimVirgin (talk) 19:14, August 22, 2005 (UTC)
Is the area referred to as Samaria in Israel? I've never heard of it before, to be honest. Would "historically known as Samaria" be more acceptable? It's just a thought. --Uncle Bungle 21:48, 23 August 2005 (UTC)
Apparently that is the case. [16][17] (of course "in Israel" depends on your point of view)--Ezeu 22:20, 23 August 2005 (UTC)
Hi Uncle Bungle, the terms Judea and Samaria are still used instead of West Bank (which only refers to the west bank of the Jordan river). Ezeu, I didn't get your last point about "in Israel" depending on your point of view, sorry. SlimVirgin (talk) 02:01, August 24, 2005 (UTC)
What i mean is that some people may asseverate (what one can do with rogets) the area you call Samaria as not belonging to Isreal. --Ezeu 02:51, 24 August 2005 (UTC)
Whatever happens regarding Isreali land concessions, the region is nevertheless known as Samaria. That's its historical name. P.S. Aside from the assertion in the Samaria article (inserted long ago by a POV crusader), is there an encyclopedic source that "Samaria" is a Zionist term (mirrors don't count)? HKT talk 03:13, 24 August 2005 (UTC)
Samaria does not seem to be a Zionist term. It seems we at Wikipedia may have created schism around this word. Anyone with knowledge on this ussue, please clarify. - Ezeu 03:45, 24 August 2005 (UTC)
User:SlimVirgin can we add aka Issacar or Zabulon? I kid. In all honesty, while it may be factually accurate, one must admit it has a bit of a POV slant to it. I picked a few articles which link to West Bank at random, and none of them mention Samaria. I still don't see why it is needed as was stressed in the edit comments by User:Jayjg. Since Gods promise is covered in Israeli Opinions would it not be more apropriate to use the term there? Besides, it looks ugly hanging off the end of the introduction paragraph like that. --Uncle Bungle 05:21, 24 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] B-101

I think we should get some photos from CNN and other networks of the pull-out.- B-101 16:15, 19 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Anti-Semitic use of Stars of David

Jayjg the abusive admin deleted these edits and protected the page to prevent further editing because he doesn't want to face the anti-semitic behavior of Jewish settlers despite evidence provided in the link provided by Uncle Bungle and any Google news search will show. For instance: [18] [19] [20] --4.154.11.251 03:08, 22 August 2005 (UTC)

I deleted that edit, but I concede, given the references above. Jayjg was probably trying to calm things down given the edit battle that was going on. Abusive? what about your choice of words in the edit summary?. - Ezeu 04:13, 22 August 2005 (UTC)
I was in the process of deleting too, even though I was quite aware of the truth of the report. The use of Holocaust symbolism started long ago, soon after the disengagement was announced. Certain groups of Gaza settlers started to wear yellow stars. The phenomenon died down after a massively negative response from the Israeli public. Now during the actual evacuations, there have been lots of cases of Nazi epithets, graffiti, yellow stars, etc etc. This could be mentioned in the article, but just a single incident doesn't pass the threshold. As for the pop-analysis about whether it is anti-semitic or not -- save us!! --Zero 09:34, 22 August 2005 (UTC)
Either equating Jews with Nazis is anti-Semitic or it isn't. New anti-Semitism says it does, but apparently an incident of comparing the modern state of Israel with Nazi Germany doesn't belong there. Since it has to do with the pullout, I put it here, and again it is chased away. The fact is this event happened, and you can not simply chase it down the memory hole. If I have to I'll start the article equating Jews with Nazis qualify it as anti-Semitic and list the incident there, but it will be on wikipedia. --Uncle Bungle 11:33, 22 August 2005 (UTC)
Whenever there is a serious issue in Israel that inflames the passions, someone will call someone else a Nazi. I don't see why this is surprising; it's just that someone who wants to hurl the worst insult possible can choose "Nazi" with a minimum of imagination. About the least interesting thing about it is of which canned labels apply to it. --Zero 12:18, 22 August 2005 (UTC)
A major distinction is to be made between comparing the State of Israel inherently to Nazis and comparing certain elements of the current government and police force to Nazis. The latter is targeted specifically, and can in no way be called anti-Semitism (not to say that it can't be called other things). HKT talk 02:04, 24 August 2005 (UTC)
So if you use the accusation as a blanket insult, its anti-Semitism. If you say the IDF is behaving like a bunch of storm troopers because... and qualify it, you're being ignorant and rude but its not hate speech? Jon Stewart actually spoke very eloquently on the subject, I don't have the complete quote any more, but it was to the effect of: "Don't compare poeple to Hitler. You're insulting me, you're insulting yourself, and frankly you're insulting Hitler. That guy worked hard to be that evil". Stewart said it was ok to compare (American) politicians to Nazis, but not specificially Hitler. The segment was called "A slightly closer look" I can't remember the airdate. --Uncle Bungle 05:33, 24 August 2005 (UTC)
  • Everyone knows that neither the State of Israel nor those irritated settlers are Nazis. It nothing but an attempt to hoodwink history for equivocal purposes. Have we seen that before? --Ezeu 05:59, 24 August 2005 (UTC)
Article on this topic: [21] --Zero 10:47, 24 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] US position on disengagement

I have once again removed HKT's analysis of the US position on the final boundaries between Israel and Palestinia, selecting instead from his links the portions of GWB's speechs that actually relate to the disengagement. HKT, please don't revert to your off-topic and original-work version. Joffan 13:54, 24 August 2005 (UTC)

Joffan, thanks for getting more specific quotes. Earlier, I had reverted edits that only presented text indicating that Israel should have "secure" borders, without mention of what those borders entail. The analysis that you mention was not added by myself (though I edited it a little); I simply reverted its deletion. It's certainly not original research to say that a Palestinian demand for all land demarcated by the 1949 Armistice lines would accordingly become the Bush administrations policy, given that this is undeniably implicit in current administration statements. In any event, while your quotes are more specific and merit primary focus in this article, the necessity remains to clarify that the Bush administration is not satisfied with the disengagement plan alone. Bush and Rice frequently underscore that Israel must concede all land in the West Bank and Gaza (as well as East Jerusalem) according to 1949 Armistice lines. Additionally, the Bush administration continues to demand "meaningful linkages" between the West Bank and Gaza. Earlier statements about major population centers no longer appear relevant, as West Bank cities such as Ariel (2002 pop. ~25,000, including college students) fall outside of Israel's domain according to the 1949 lines. Basically, the administration's position is that the disengagement plan is only sufficient in the context of the Bush administration's current version of the Road Map (an article which itself requires updating). HKT talk 21:39, 24 August 2005 (UTC)
Good work! --Zero 15:33, 24 August 2005 (UTC)

OK, I'm glad we resolved that. further comment on your talk page, HKT. Joffan 23:23, 24 August 2005 (UTC)

[Further comments by Joffan copied from User talk:HKT]:

I disagree with your logic, HKT, on the conjunction of [*the US support for agreed final borders*] with [*the Palestinian negotiating position of the 1949 ceasefire lines*] to infer that [*the US policy endorses those lines as borders*]. What is stated now by Abbas & co may not be what is finally agreed. I'd be interested to see any quote where Bush or Rice directly say (never mind underscore) that "Israel must concede all land in the West Bank and Gaza (as well as East Jerusalem) according to 1949 Armistice lines". However there is no denying that the Bush admin, along with everyone bar a few extremists, "is not satisfied with the disengagement plan alone".
"What is stated now by Abbas & co may not be what is finally agreed."
  • This is true. However, if Abbas demands 1949 lines as borders, that will ostensibly be supported by the Bush administration. Demands for "right of return" would not necessarily be supported by the administration.
"I'd be interested to see any quote where Bush or Rice directly say (never mind underscore) that "Israel must concede all land in the West Bank and Gaza (as well as East Jerusalem) according to 1949 Armistice lines"."
  • For one, here's a quote that was in the article for the past month:

...[C]hanges to the 1949 Armistice lines must be mutually agreed to. A viable two-state solution must ensure contiguity of the West Bank, and a state of scattered territories will not work. There must also be meaningful linkages between the West Bank and Gaza. This is the position of the United States today, it will be the position of the United States at the time of final status negotiations.

  • The Bush administration considers the 1949 lines as the appropriate frame of reference for negotiations. The only way the Bush administration would accept less Israeli concessions is if Abbas would do so as well. Therefore, as the article previously stated, a Palestinian demand for concessions to the '49 lines would be accepted by the Bush administration. The administration never "directly" said that Israel must concede all land to the '49 lines; maybe Abbas will spontaneously accept less. ;) The article previously stated as much.
"...[T]here is no denying that the Bush admin... "is not satisfied with the disengagement plan alone"."
  • Very well. This should consequently be addressed in the article. P.S. Interesting how you consider millions of people around the world as merely "a few extremists." ;) HKT talk 00:30, 25 August 2005 (UTC)

By the way, what's resolved? HKT talk 00:31, 25 August 2005 (UTC)

[added text from User talk:HKT] It sounds like you're happy with your logical inference to extend the Bush Admin's position on this - all I can tell you is that I don't think you have quite a firm enough rock to convince the majority of posters that it's fact rather than speculation. As you say, Abbas may accept less in the process of other bargaining considerations. Since I can't see the Israelis conceding East Jerusalem, the assumption that initial demands will never change means that the problem will not be resolved. Ever. A pretty gloomy point of view.

I think the fact that Bush described this as something that could restart the "road map" shows that they are looking for more to happen from here. PS: who are the "millions around the world" who are satisfied with the disengagement plan alone?

Cheers, Joffan 14:15, 25 August 2005 (UTC)

  • I made no inferences. The following if/then statement is undeniable: If Abbas demands borders at the '49 lines, then Bush will support those borders (if he follows his current policy statements). I did not assume that Abbas would make that demand (though I think it is quite likely, based on precedent, that he will. However, that is irrelevant).
  • We seem to be in agreement that Bush wants more, so I'll assume that we're in agreement that the article should indicate as much.
  • I never said that millions are satisfied with the disengagement alone. However, if you consider any such people extremists, a fortiori that you consider those who don't support any land concessions extremists. There are many millions of the latter (I dare say hundreds of millions). HKT talk 18:32, 25 August 2005 (UTC)

I guess, HKT, you're reading as much as possible into the remark made by Bush with Abbas. Under this reading, "changes to the 1949 Armistice lines must be mutually agreed to" implies that no agreement means the Armistice lines are the borders. However in context this is clearly not what is meant, and it could even be taken the other way: "Guys, you must change those boundaries" (though I don't think he meant that either).

I think a further reference to the potential to get on with the "road map" is sufficient indication of further expected progress and changes after this disengagement. I will add this.

Hmm... as for "a few extremists"... I guess I would consider those who don't support any land concessions to the Palestinians as extremists, because they would basically be denying autonomy for the Palestinians. I would have thought they were concentrated in Israel though, numbering maybe a million tops. Relatively few :).

Cheers, Joffan 20:41, 25 August 2005 (UTC)

  • The deleted paragraph (following the deleted quotes) does not suggest, as you assert it does, "that that no agreement means the Armistice lines are the borders." (Speaking of "reading as much as possible into" remarks!) It explains that the US will not accept (according to current policy) any process deficient in mutual agreement regarding borders. For example, if Israel unilaterally concedes %97 of the West Bank, Bush will not be satisfied. If there is no agreement, the US will probably continue to push for one. As you seem to appreciate, it's absurd to suggest that, if negotiations fail, then the '49 lines will magically become the borders of a default Palestinian state. However, Bush will not be satisfied with less than '49 borders if Abbas demands as much, and Israel will continue to face US pressure unless Israel complies with such a demand.
  • As far as taking Bush's remarks as "Guys, you must change those boundaries," you are right that it is an untenable reading. Border negotiations have not been referenced according to the '49 lines, and mentioning those lines makes them such a reference. I don't know what other interpretation you have in mind, though I assume that Bush expects to be understood when he presents a well-prepared address.
  • It is better to "reference to the potential to get on with the 'road map'," but it is not sufficient. People must understand what the "road map" entails. I suppose that if the road map article is updated, and this article links to it, that would be sufficient.
  • A large percentage of the US populace is against any land concessions (a population number already in the nine digits). Lower percentages exist in other countries, but they still constitute a nine-digit number composite outside the US. In Israel alone (a country with around six million citizens, including Israeli Arabs), the most left-wing polls count way over 1,000,000 opponents to land concession (actually they count nearly 2,000,000) and many polls count such people at around 3,000,000. (Don't worry: I am well aware that support for Israeli concessions numbers in the ten digits internationally; even support for the dissolution of the Israeli state numbers in the ten digits!) I don't know what media outlets you get your information from. In any event, I'm not interested in getting into a discussion about Palestinian autonomy and your opinions on extremism, as that is entirely irrelevant to this article. HKT talk 05:14, 26 August 2005 (UTC)

Just to focus on the relevant point: you say "Bush will not be satisfied with less than '49 borders if Abbas demands as much". I continue to disagree, and reiterate that a "demand" is the starting point of negotiation, not the conclusion. My intermediate reading of Bush's remarks, without undue emphasis, is that the US holds that the borders of the Palestinian State should be negotiated not imposed.

I trust my re-wording of the US position was tolerable? Cheers, Joffan 15:10, 26 August 2005 (UTC)

Yes, the re-wording seems tolerable. Thanks, HKT talk 18:31, 26 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Egypt to control coast & airspace?

I transferred an item from the caption of the Gaza/WB settlements picture into Chronology as follows:

On 31 August 2005, the Knesset voted to transfer control of Gaza's coastline and airspace to Egypt, revising the previously-stated intent to maintain Israeli control of Gaza's borders, coastline, and airspace.

However I can't find a source for this - can anyone help? Joffan 16:59, 2 September 2005 (UTC)

[edit] POV

I suggest to remove the תובבא addition after the name of the former settelments, since this is clearly a POV - it stands in hevrew for "may it will be rebuilt in our days, amen".

[edit] Last Section

Would someone be able to help fix up the last section please? ("Escalation in the West Bank post Disengagement plan") It looks like it's been written by someone with a less-than-perfect grasp of English. I've been through it quickly and fixed the most glaring errors (spelling, punctuation etc.), although i realise that i've missed a few. But the entire section to me feels incomplete. I would be grateful for more able hands than mine to tidy things up a bit. Kelmaon 09:21, 20 October 2005 (UTC)

Actually that entire section, in my opinion, does not belong here. The title does not suit the content, which describes two incidents that happened on a single day, and the whole thing reads like a CNN news article, and does not belong in an encyclopedia. If there really is an "escalation", it would not be in one day. Lastly, the title, by implying that the events are an "escalation" and that they occurred "post disengagement" as if they are tied to the "disengagement", are the editor's original research. That may also be why the section feels "incomplete". Ramallite (talk) 13:37, 20 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Evacuated settlements

Are there any changes in the list of evacuated settlements? An anon edited Kochav HaShachar to declare it removed. Please verify. mikka (t) 00:16, 3 December 2005 (UTC)


[edit] Egypt border

Israel does not have control over the Gaza/Egypt border, though it does regulate the borders between Gaza and Israel. Thus, I've edited the caption on the map which claimed that "Israel maintains control of Gaza's borders"


[edit] Regarding the alleged prevention of protesters from protesting

AlexKarpman, I am again reverting your edit because the sources you provided are not in English, and therefore English-speaking editors and readers of the English-language Wikipedia are not able to verify them. The information is presented with what I perceive to be a POV slant. If you can provide the source in English, I and other editors can review the material and look into correcting the grammar and possible POV material, instead of deleting it. As it stands snow, there is simply now way to read the original source material to make a fair evaluation.--AladdinSE 04:32, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

What about these sources in German?...
We're talking about something that happend in Israel, and therefore is covered by the Israeli media. I'm sure that there are lots of Hebrew-speaking writers here(and that you even know some!), that'd be simply thrilled to translate the links I gave(or maybe you don't believe them too?...). If I had source in English, I'd be glas to use them, but I don't. When the choice is between sepcifying vital info citing a foreign source, or not giving that info at all, imho there is no choice.
Also, I don't see how a CITATION could be POV. I didn't state any facts. I've noted what OTHER people said.
Finally, I still don't see what is "dodgy" about the grammar(and as I've said, if you're talking about BAD grammar, I take the full blame on me, but anyone, including you, can correct and improve it, instead of deleting it), or what is POV in what I've written. Tell me what's POV, and I'll change it. Should I write "asked politely for the buses to stop" instead of "halted the buses"? I HONESTLY don't understand what's the problem. conio.h • talk 11:33, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

First, read Wikipedia:Citing sources for very useful policy guidelines about what we are discussing here. As for that article you linked, you'll notice that no one is contesting the information backed up by those German sources. If someone did, they would be justified in deleting the information and demanding an English source. There are many many English-language media sources in Israel. It is not purely in Hebrew or Arabic (the two official languages). Also, a citation could easily be POV if the source used is partisan. There are many different kind of sources. From reputable scholarly and journalistic ones to blogs and personal and organizational websites. Even some journalism and scholarly references are known to be extremely partisan, and thus need to be identified and read in English to allow a proper debate about their veracity. Partisan sources may be used, but they should be identified as such when it comes to a contentious edit, and editors must be able to read them to make a proper evaluation. Finally, about the nature of the contentious material, as I see it. The information, as you presented it, makes it sound like public opinion and democratic freedoms were repressed by Israeli police, implying that the true nature of the opposition to the pull-out was deliberately and illegally undermined. That is highly controversial. It talks about decisions of the Supreme Court relating to those controversies. Because the information is in Hebrew, there is no way for an editor or reader to verify 1. The information was correctly transcribed form the source and 2. The source itself is a reputable one, not a partisan blog, for example. --AladdinSE 01:15, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

First - Been there, done that.
Second, as I've said to you on your talk-page - lack of knowledge is no reason for claiming false to be true. This goes for two main arguments you made:
  • Regarding the "partisan" issue - everyone can read the article about it, here in wikipedia(Yedioth Ahronoth), and decide for themselves whether it is a "partisan source" or not. They can even edit THIS article and add that "this information could not be completely trusted, since Yedioth Ahronoth is a known partisan source", If they think so and can give strong arguments in favor. (Actually, I've seen an edit you made refering to ynetnews.com, so the making the assumption of innocence towards you is kind of difficult)
  • Regarding the claim that there are many English sources in Israel: Well, simply untrue. The Jerusalem Post's and Haaretz's online archives are not free(and therefore useless as sources for wikipedia), www.nrg.co.il(Maariv) doesn't have an English version, and ynet.co.il's English version(www.ynetnews.com) doesn't even come close to be a complete translated version of the Hebrew one. You claim there are good English sources in Israel? Pick one, and I will find there "evidence" for the info I've added.
Also, a citation is always POV, but when presented as a citation(rather than a fact in the article), with explanation about who made it and under what circumstances, it stands to the wikipedis NPOV policy.
Regarding the alleged POV, all I can say is that your accusations seem very exaggerated to me. If I'd be telling throughout the whole article about "the evil police who repressed innocent protestors" I'd understand how this
makes it sound like public opinion and democratic freedoms were repressed by Israeli police, implying that the true nature of the opposition to the pull-out was deliberately and illegally undermined
But I only told about buses stopped(fact), driver's licences taken(fact), and a petition to the court(fact). I haven't said that it happened throughout the whole country all of the time(actually, I wrote the complete opposite - that it was a local phenomena, and stated a location and time). The credit for this strange interpretation ought to come to you only. Nonetheless, I'd be happy to hear suggestions for alternative formulation of this info. Also, this is the place to mention there was a serious mistake in the edit I made: There was no court ruling. The mistake only happened because I took ynet's word for it... :)
Finally, there are two simple solutions for the two issues you brought up:
  1. For an editor: There are other Hebrew speakers here. They can give a scarce but useful "peer review" of my translation work.
    For a reader: As usual, he may choose whether he trusts wikipedia and it's open nature or not. The same thing he must to regarding Latin and Greek in wikipedia. How do I know if translations of quotes from the Septuagint and the Vulgate are true or not?...
  2. As I said above. He has wikipedia...
And again I want to say that I use the Hebrew sources not because I think they look better in the English Wikipedia, but because they're the only ones out there. It's not even a close first, but it certainly is a second best. conio.h • talk 02:26, 2 February 2006 (UTC)


"Lack of knowledge" is not the same as requesting a verifiable source. Do you realize how silly it is to go to an editor of the English language Wikipedia and tell them that because they cannot read a foreign source, they are ignorant? No wikipedia editor is omniscient. When contested edits are involved, verifiable sources will be required, you will just have to get used to it.

Actual English access to a source, or a translation thereof, is required so that the original text can be examined relative to the information it purports to support. I've shown you where Wikipedia tells us this. Yedioth Ahronoth and any other source is not exempted. Also, I am not a subscriber to the Jerusalem Post or Haaretz, and yet I have consistently been able to read their citations by other editors in innumerable edits on Wikipedia. Furthermore, it is for the editor introducing the contested edit to provide English sources, not for the editors who are contesting or requiring verification. You cannot shift the burden onto others.

You have admitted that you incorrectly stated that there was a court ruling, and that you took a source's word for it, which was wrong. There MUST be a source we can all read independently to minimize these inaccuracies.

It is very diverting that first you say that "I don't see how a CITATION could be POV" and then you turn around and claim the complete opposite, saying "a citation is always POV." Now, present a citation by all means, and we can call it a partisan citation if it is one, but IN ENGLISH, so I and others can read it and make an independent evaluation. Therefore I am perfectly willing to accede to all those "facts" that you proudly listed, as well as give an "alternative formulation," as long as I can read the original in order to be able to do it :) --AladdinSE 06:24, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Positions of foreign governments

The section "Positions of foreign governments" has been reproduced almost directly from this Al Jazeera article. The article "Israeli unilateral disengagement plan" is copyrighted by Al Jazeera Publishing 1999-2006. Agreed that it is copyright infringement? Also see Wikipedia:Copyrights. — † Webdinger BLAH | SZ 03:49, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

At the bottom in subdued grey script is a reference to WP. It seems that they plagirized from wp, word for word. --Shuki 20:28, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
Thank you for the clarification, Shuki — I didn't see the gray text, but it seems that Al Jazeera's reference is not sufficient enough to allow them to copy an entire section from a Wikipedia article. — † Webdinger BLAH | SZ 02:40, 5 May 2006 (UTC)

Please do not again make a redirect from disengagement to this article. See Wikipedia:Redirects_for_deletion/Redirect_Archives/May_2006#disengagement_.E2.86.92_Israel.27s_unilateral_disengagement_plan. I also have my doubts about a disambiguation page though this may be a reasonable solution, Andries 18:55, 21 October 2006 (UTC)