Talk:İsmail Enver

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[edit] Ismail Enver

We all know Ismail Enver as Enver Pasha. Why don't we move this article into Enver Pasha? Paparokan 13:21, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

Pasha is a military title. It would be like moving Jennifer Şebnem Schaefer to "Actress Schaefer" because "We all know" . Thanks.--OttomanReference 16:38, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

In Turkish Temel Britannica, the article's name is Enver Paşa. In all of the books I have read including school books his name is given as Enver Paşa. I feel that many of people who have heard Enver Paşa before knows his name as Enver Paşa. Paparokan 17:17, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

  • Easy solution would be to add a redirect for Enver Paşa that comes here, then. 155.188.183.7 22:09, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Libya (Trablusgarp) and others...

The article misses some important details. For example when you read the background part, you think that just because he learned the German style of warfare, he rose rapidly and became a pasha but it is not the truth. He was highly successful during the Trablusgarp War back in 1911, then he played a key role during the proclaimation of the Second Ottoman Constitution. He was one of the key people during the March 31st Uprising (31 Mart Olayı, a religious uprising which was supported by the emperor - Enver's side put the uprising down). After his party (thanks to his active role) took the control of the empire, he saved Edirne from invasion. Only after all this success, he became a pasha. With respect, Deliogul 19:37, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Look, if nobody has counter-claims against the facts that I mentioned above, I'm going to put them into the article. I'm waiting your comments. With respect, Deliogul 12:40, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
RECENT EDITS; I entered many new details to the article in recent days. Before I forget, thank you OttomanReference for your recent edits about the order of the article and new details that you entered. With respect, Deliogul 17:30, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] suspect?

Some of the information, such as the assertion that German commanders were 'always defeated' looks pretty suspect.

That was recently added. I've removed it now. —Khoikhoi 05:12, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] he is also known as Enver Bey

Ismail Enver is also known as Enver Bey. If noone is agaist, I add this to the article. Bey was the position he had, before becoming Pasha. Regards!

Virgilio 23:22, 7 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] was he shot by armenians?

http://www.armeniapedia.org/index.php?title=Enver_Pasha

Armeniapedia claims he was shot actually by Armenian soldiers in Tajikistan. However, I can't find any other source?


There is no source that he was actually show by Armenians. Dukak 15:40, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

If a remember right, the PBS documentary on the Armenian Genocide cited that he was shot in Tajikistan. I'm not sure if it was by Armenians or by Tajiks. -- Clevelander 00:10, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
It is alleged that the Red Army soldier that shot him was Armenian but there is no concrete proof or even a name for that matter to my knowledge.--Eupator 14:53, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
Enver Bey made a frontal cavalry charge against the Soviet machine guns when the defeat became obvious. He died with his sword in his hand. This Armenian soldier's revenge theory is just romance. Actually every red head communist would like to kill a true nationalist like Enver Bey. With respect, Deliogul 23:46, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
Wow what a wild entry about communists. Frankly speaking, I haven't been thinking that bad about socialism for a couple of time. I guess there is big problem about Russians instead of socialism. For a century, they tried monarchy,communism and democracy and the results are all rubbish :D Deliogul 20:17, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Deleted

I deleted the Wikiproject Armenia from this page. Enver Bey was %100 Turkish and nothing to do with Armenia. Also not "tens of thousand" soldiers died in the Battle of Sarıkamış. Weather conditions caused the death of 7,000 Ottoman soldier. Russian Imperial Army also lost this much troops due to weather. 7,000 more Ottoman soldiers were killed during the war by the Russians. With respect, Deliogul 13:23, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

Ever heard to the Armenian Genocide? —Khoikhoi 00:52, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
Enver Bey was a Turkish hero. He took place in wars at three continents for his country. He was murdered while he was trying to form a unified Turkic state(Turan). Only barbaric west can do genocides but not the noble Turkish nation. Armenian Genocide is a political made-up. With respect, Deliogul 22:06, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
Thanks for informing me. Now I know the truth. —Khoikhoi 00:32, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
You welcome. Actually I didn't try to explain some kind of truth to anyone. We, Turkish nationalists, love Enver Bey. I don't really understand how a tiny country like Armenia can cause this much debate. With respect, Deliogul 11:58, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

70.114.231.223 20:01, 13 October 2006 (UTC)==The Unknown User==

An unknown user changed the part about the Battle of Sarıkamış. He/she argues that thousands of troops died without even using their rifles but its all wrong. Turkish Army couldn't reach to its major goal but kept Russians where they are for a time. If you want to learn futher information go to Talk:Battle of Sarikamis. "About the War" title belongs to me. With respect, Deliogul 17:51, 15 August 2006 (UTC)


"Only[the] barbaric west can do genocides but not the noble Turkish nation."


Oh my! I am certain the Sudanese agree with you...surely they consider bleeding on or from Muslim weapons, whether they are Christian, lesser Muslim (in their murderers' eyes), or other, a most noble death-they probably are so overwhelmed by the nobility of their murderers that they prefer death to living another day. And all those conflicts and wars all over the world whose common denominator, for the most part, is Muslim involvment? The deaths of those opposing the Muslims, again including weaker Muslims or, hmm, less bloodthirsty Muslims (or maybe outnumbered or less well equipped), is oh so most certainly approbative and providential. Why cannot Dar-al-Harb and Muslim-Lite understand that they do not have equal rights to the air to breathe? Don't they know that when a Muslim says a Muslim cause or state is noble, it must be...after all, a Muslim used the word "noble"...doesn't that immediately render all the havoc and bloodshed they wreak sacrosanct? Silly Armenians, what were they thinking? How could they not understand what a holy, godly thing it is to be bled at the hands of such pious folk as the Muslims. The deaths of hundreds of thousands if not over a million Armenians at the hands of Turkish Muslims cannot be a genocide or even a bad thing. After all, a Muslim Turk says Turkey is noble, and as we all know, when a Muslim speaks of morality, we must all take it as the strict axiomatic truth that it is. Anyway, this is all silly rhetoric; as we know, Islam is the Religion of Peace, Muslims aren't violent, and you better not suggest that they are or, well, they will threaten to kill you or succeed given the opportunity. But that isn't violent, gentle readers....it's noble.

70.114.231.223 20:01, 13 October 2006 (UTC)mdh.ubiquitous

First of all I am a Turkish nationalist not an Islamic extremist. So I got nothing to do with religious issues. Turkey is a secular state and has no state religion. You must talk Islamic issues with Arabs or other religion freak terrorists. Hmmm but you are right, Armenians sometimes can be "silly" because Armenia is a sweet tiny country with lots of great places to visit but they always try to fight with big boys. And you are also right about being bloody. Turks smashed many armies (therefore many nations) through their way up to Anatolia from Central Asia and its nothing to do with religion. It only shows how successful warriors we are. Still I hope some further discussions will be made so we can improve the article of Enver Pasha. With respect, Deliogul 12:23, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Birth and familiy

According to the 1911 encyclopedia he "was of very humble origin. He was born in Abana, near the Black Sea, where his father was a bridge-keeper and his mother followed the despised profession of laying out the dead." Not quite the same as this article states... —Preceding unsigned comment added by Babaroga (talk • contribs)

Enver Paşa was a Gagauz Turk(a Turkish clan that its members still live around the Black Sea). His ancestors may came from there. For example, my ancestors came from Sivas(a city in the middle of Anatolia) to Istanbul and I was born in Istanbul. Other false claims can easily be explained by saying than "this is a British source" simply because Enver and Britions were arc-rivals. With respect, Deliogul 22:10, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
Just because Enver and the British /government/ were enemies does not mean that the Encyclopedia Britannica can so easily be dismissed. That would be like the British saying 'oh, you can't take the word of any Turk on anything, because Enver did not like the British.' 155.188.183.7 22:16, 17 October 2007 (UTC)
Can you provide reliable sources that state this? Thanks. —Khoikhoi 03:04, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
Sorry for posting an unsigned remark. According to Mark Gilbert's book First World War he was born in Abana. I've done a google search and found out that several sources claim Istanbul to be his birthplace. Just as many claim Abana. To insinuate that a respected encyclopedia like Britannica willingly uses false information, which then would look like pure propaganda, I think is farfetched. I think we are much better off trying to find the correct information. One explanation that comes to mind is that history shows that several state leaders or prominent politicians have tried to slightly change their own history to make it seem better. Another might be that his parents were from Abana and that he was actually born there, but that his family moved when he was a infant or a child. We need to find very reliable sources to confirm any information. Until then I think we maybe should consider putting on the {{disputed}} tag. Babaroga 07:25, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Link in Last year section.

The link to 'Ibrahim Bey' in the section 'The last year' leads to someone else. Pukkie 10:11, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Genocide?

Why is the Armenian Genocide ignored completely in this article, except for a little sidebar mention? Anyone trying to use this article will be getting a biased article, missing one of the major points in Enver's life. HumanProdigy 21:36, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

Because there is already an article with the name Armenian Genocide and there is no need to write things twice, if anyone wonders the connection s/he can click the sidebar and lose 1 minute ;) Qghvz 02:32, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] I can't even read this.

The grammar and english in this page is an absolute mess. Is there anyone in the Wiki community who is well versed in this section of Turkish history who can actually write in readable english? The worst of it is in the Democratic Republic of Armenia section, but it is almost as bad everywhere else. HumanProdigy 22:02, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

It is not only the grammar. The whole article is a mess. I dont know how they creat articles in wikipedia. Probably using some cut and paste. What do you expect from a source where everybody can make any edits. Try to read the article "central caspian dictatorship". You will never understand who was fighting with whom, who was behind whom, who attacked whom and why. But they are very politically correct in wikipedia. For example when they say Armenians massacred Azeris during the central caspian dictatorship then they will also mentioned that Azeris killed Armenians back after recapturing Baku. If you edit any incorrect facts you will be reverted immediately by Grandmaster and Khoikhoi. I dont know whats going on with the whole part of Armenian Azerbaijani history but I know one thing Khoikhoi and Grandmaster are here to cite what they want, correct and edit whom they want, revert anything they want. —Preceding unsigned comment added by ArmenianNY (talk • contribs)

We worked a lot on this article couple of times a go. It was just a short essay when we started and today it has many sections with deeper information on Enver Paşa's life. Grammar can be bad for you but then you must try to correct our mistakes. See you, Deliogul 11:11, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

In order to correct the grammatic mistakes one needs to understand the whole meaning or the context of the section. Wouldn't it be nice to have a shorter essay but at least readable or undertandable then a long paranoia where everybody can wrtie whatever comes to his mind. The section about so called Democratic Republic of Armenia is written by a person who writes his own thoughts or his conversation with a friend. Who is going to correct this bazaar conversation. It just needs to be removed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by ArmenianNY (talk • contribs)

That section was created after my edits. Actually, I don't think that it would be enough for understanding a key figure like Enver Bey in a short essay, even if it would be readable. We can discuss the changes you want here. We can put "disputed" and "citation needed" marks on some claims in the article. We can reach to a better article with your help. See you, Deliogul 16:29, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

THEN do a favor for all of us, as an editor remove the part about Republic of Armenia. It is not even relevant to Enver. Just remove it.--armenianNY 20:12, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] citations?

This needs a lot of citations which it doesn't have. It gives quotes like what exactly Enver was charged with by the Turkish government, but without any citation to verify. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 75.22.70.201 (talk) 17:12, 4 March 2007 (UTC).

Yes, for example the cause of Enver's death differs in the "Pan-Turkism" section and the "Aftermath" section. Which is right? Killed in a cavalry charge or overrun in a village? Citations would help. --Kbk 14:17, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

He was killed in a last cavalry charge against Socialist forces at Turkestan. Some says that when Enver Pasha gave his orders and charge against enemy, none of his supporters followed him. Of course this part is possibly a legend which was created thanks to the romantic/tragic notion of Enver Pasha's life but it is clear that he was shot to death on the battlefield. Deliogul 20:05, 12 July 2007 (UTC)