Talk:Isle of Man TT

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This article uses British English dialect and spelling. Some terms that are used in it differ from, or are not used in, American English. For more information, see American and British English differences. According to the relevant style guide, this should not be changed without broad consensus.
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Contents

[edit] Older 2005 & 2006 edits

I've read the mountain course is the longest used in moto racing. Confirm? Trekphiler 04:51, 9 December 2005 (UTC)

37.73 miles long, almost certainly! 160.5.247.213 23:08, 13 February 2006 (UTC) pickle_uk not logged in

It's the longest now-Targa Florio was 44 miles, and Mille Miglia over 1000 miles! I'd like to see a link for the "Hollywood blockbuster" mentioned in the article-a Google search came up empty. [[User:John DiFool|John DiFool] 20:49, 28 March 2006

I've edited the page with a link to the Manx Grand Prix article I've recently created. manxbadger 22.38, 20 May 2006

the photograph below that of Joey Dunlop is not Philip McCallen but Nick Jefferies. Its the helmet that gives it away

The exact number of deaths on the TT course (Jun Maeda included) is 222. The Mountain Course is _not_ the longest circuit used in motorcycling _history_. Infact the circuit the "Targa Florio motociclistica" (i.e. the motorcycling version of the Targa Florio) was raced on from 1920 to 1929 was 108 km long, so well 48 km longer than the Isle of Man Mountain circuit. It was thought to be the longest circuit ever used in a motorcycling road race. By Vocram.

[edit] Races Template

I made a Isle of Man TT template listing all the years that races took place. It is intended for use in the race pages and I hope people will find it more elegant than the large table in this article and that it will also be used in the result pages as they are written up. ww2censor 03:45, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Naming?

I'm not a cycling fan, but I wonder about the use of TT in the title of this page and the annual race summary pages. Is TT really the common usage? It seems to me that the page should be at Isle of Man Tourist Trophy or Isle of Man Tourist Trophy Race. At the very least, this should be spelt out on each race summary page. –RHolton≡– 13:12, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

In fact many people only refer to it as the TT races or the TT. The title seems fine and each page quite clearly indicated what TT means, both this main page and all the race results pages done so far. ww2censor 15:06, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
I agree - most people don't know what TT stands for and all branding, etc of it is TT not Tourist Trophy.Manxy3 15:59, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
Rholton may have a valid point. As an encyclopedia article, maybe the title should be as informative as possible to neophytes who may never have heard about the IOM TT. Another option might be to create a redirect page to send links written as Isle of Man Tourist Trophy to be redirected to this page.Orsoni 14:40, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
  • It would be ridiculous to change the title to Tourist Trophy. The Races are known worldwide, by that title, TT Races. I can't imagine anyone in the civilized world not to have heard of the TT. There are spectators from America, Canada, Japan, Australia, South Africa and Europe attend the TT every year.
We need to keep in mind that Wikipedia articles are supposed to be like encyclopedia articles designed to provide as many facts as possible. While it is true that most motorcyclists know what the TT stands for, there may be readers who have never heard of the Isle of Man TT. Orsoni 01:36, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
It is pretty clear from the very first line of this article what TT means, but I suggest making 2 new redirect pages for the suggested titles above so that people who might know Tourist Trophy will find this article easier. However, I must virtually agree with Orsoni viewpoint that few people would not know what TT means. ww2censor 13:07, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Historical details

An unregistered user (from the IP address I get the impression it is just one user) keeps adding more and more detailed race information for the 1920s and 1930s to this page that seem more appropriate to the individual results pages. I have been creating new results pages for this time period, albrit slowly, and intend moving that data to those individual pages unless someone objects furiously but leaving some pertinant information on this page. The main page should give an overview of the TT and not the small details. ww2censor 17:10, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

I have added historical detail for 1920 and 1930's from local sources. I had only intended to go as far as 1939. I can understand the point to balance race results with just a general over-view and this is what I had intended to give. However, there are no race results for long periods. I have found that some features that may have been in the race results where better in the overall summary. Also, I have found difficult in different spellings of TT riders names. I have added some TT course points where they can be crossed referenced with other Isle of Man stubs. (Agljones 15:01, 7 November 2006 (UTC))

In respect to historial details, I have looked at Formula 1 results, Moto GP results and other events such as the Dutch TT, North West 200 and the Ulster Grand Prix. I still feel that the Isle of Man TT still needs some type of historical narrative. I had still only intended intially add details upto 1939. The post war period is far more difficult including course improvements, extra races, use of the Clypse Course and the reasons for the loss of world championship status. I can understand the need for structure to applied to the details, the historical narrative and the recording of race details.

The race results have been copied directly from another website and do not give number of laps, race distance and lap records. The post war results concentrate on the events which are world championship events. This point I can understand, although I have noticed that the photograph that is used for the summary of each year of the World Motor-Cycling Chamapionship since 1949 to 2007 is that of Joey Dunlop riding a 125cc motor-cycle at the Gooseneck Corner during the 1992 Isle of Man TT Race. Also the Isle of Man TT results do not include the post-war clubman results which included winners such as Geoff Duke and Manx Grand Prix Winner Denis Parkinson. In comparison the Formula 1 event results have a summary of the race below the race results. However, I did notice that the Alberto Ascari is classified as having a "Fatal Accident" during the 1955 Monaco Grand Prix when actual he survivied a crash into Monte Carlo harbour. (Agljones 12:44, 9 November 2006 (UTC))

[edit] Pre 1922 Lightweight 250 c.c. Junior at IOM

http://www.iomtt.com/HistoryOfTheTT/TheHistoryoftheTTRaces/TheMountainCircuit.aspx

On the site page linked to above, "An extra Race was effectively introduced on the first Race day of 1922, Tuesday 30th. May, by splitting the 250 c.c. machines away from, but run simultaneously with the 350 c.c.'s"

Appearing to contradict this, and on the same page, for the earlier 1920 race, "The Lightweight 250 c.c. Junior was a walk over for the Levis stable with the first three spots filled by their machines."

For the 1921 race, "Three different machines featured in the top three positions at the end of the 250 c.c. Race with Doug Prentice on a New Imperial a convincing victor ahead of G.S. Davison's Levis and third place man W.G. Harrison on board a Velocette."

New Imperial seems to have celebrated this 1921 win at the time, so was there an unofficial tabulation of 250 results that became official in 1922? This iomtt page doesn't clarify.

Was this because the "Lightweight 250 c.c. Junior" was not a Tourist Trophy race prior to 1922, but a non-TT IOM race? Can anyone confirm this or otherwise? Seasalt 11:26, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

The first 250cc Lightweight Race was first run in 1922. The 1920 and 1921 Junior Races had a separate 250 cc class but appeared to run concurrently. In 1920 R.O Clarke was fourth in the Junior TT Race but, finished in first place in the 250cc class. For 1921 Doug Prentice was 10th in the Junior TT Race, but finished first in the 250cc lightweight class. (Agljones 12:41, 8 November 2006 (UTC))
The Isle of Man Examiner dated 19th June 1920 quotes that Levis won the first 3 places in the Lightweight class of the 1920 Junior Race. The article also states that no prize was awarded for the Lightweight Class as the finishers times where all 30 minutes slower than the winners time. The article does not state if it refers to prize money or some other finishers award. However, R.O Clark riding for Levis finished in 4th place overall and was within the 30 minute limit for a "prize" despite a puncture at the Windy Corner on the last-lap and then completed the 1920 Junior Race on a wheel-rim. (Agljones 10:19, 11 November 2006 (UTC))
So, I suggest that either one of you, Agljones, or Seasalt, write this up these details in the 1920 Isle of Man TT page and not on the main page. As mentioned above the historical write up is becoming rather too detailed for an overview and I intend to condense both the 1920s and 1930s and merge the details onto the individual annual results pages as soon as I can get the time to do it. ww2censor 14:18, 11 November 2006 (UTC)
I have to agree with ww2censor on this point. As it stands, the race details are likely to bog a reader down in minutae when most readers are probably just seeking an overview. The main article should contain any major technology changes or significant changes to the venue.Orsoni 14:48, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

I was only posting here to validate information on another page I edit where the information was challenged. I have not previously edited the pages mentioned, and am not responsible for any excess or incorrect content there, nor am I interested in "adopting" them at this time.Seasalt 12:57, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

All information in Isle of Man TT Twenties and Thirties, from 1922 to 1935 is now incorporated in individual year pages.Seasalt 14:01, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

I don't follow what you mean by individual pages. It looks like the 1920s & 1930s sections are still in the article.Orsoni 12:19, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
All the information 1922 to 1935, on Isle of Man TT is now duplicated into each of the individual year isle of man tt race pages, and is probably to some extent redundant here. I think ww2censor wanted to reduce the amount of info on the Isle of Man TT page. Seasalt 13:48, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
ok, I understand now. I have to agree with ww2censor in that this article should serve as an introduction, covering the what, where and why of the TT while the links to the yearly race reports can cover the actual racing events.Orsoni 15:00, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
Maybe one of us, not me right now, could summarise the general trends in the IOMTT during the 1920s and 1930s into a few paragraphs from what is there and what happened to speeds, which manufacturers dominated, or often participated, etc., and then remove the rest. ww2censor 19:01, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Format of race

Do riders race individually race against the clock, or is it a mass start race? This basic infomation doesn't seem to be in the article. LDHan 17:44, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

The Isle of Man TT races are held in a time-trial format and this is mentioned in the results for the 1907 Isle of Man TT Races in the second paragraph. There has been exceptions to this, including the first 1924 Ultra-Lightweight TT Race, Isle of Man TT Races on the Clypse Course and some post-war Clubman TT races. The 2007 Isle of Man TT Races were run in the same time-trial format "against the clock." For example, the winner of the 2007 Supersport race crossed the finishing line in "3rd place." The official TT Race results reflect the time-trial format and only publish race-time and average race speed which is part of the history of the TT Races. {Agljones 11:36, 12 June 2007 (UTC)}

[edit] Fair use rationale for Image:Georg Meier.jpg

Image:Georg Meier.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.

BetacommandBot 10:48, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Post War TT Racing 1947-1959

The purpose of this artice and also Isle of Man TT racing in the 1920's and 1930's is to highlight change in a)changes to the Snaefell Mountain Course, b) notable racing events at the Isle of Man TT Races and c) technological change to racing motor-cycles. Prior to the period 1947-1959, racing motor-cycles were designed to compete at the Isle of Man TT Races. In the post-war period, although the Isle of Man TT Races were seen as a showcase by motor-cycle manufacturers this emphasis is not so well defined.

The purpose of the section of the article is not highlight the use of stream-lining of motor-cycles and perhaps this section may be better placed in another section about racing motor-cycles. Nevertheless, I am aware that a previous article on racing proto-types in another article, although this article does not exsist in its original form. Also, the section about Moto Guzzi is again a general article about racing proto-types in the 1950's. Furthermore, in September 1957 there was an unilateral agreement by the Italian motor-cycle manufacturers to withdraw from racing on financial grounds and an anti-racing sentiment in Italy after a recent fatal crash in the Mille Mila. This withdrawal included Moto Guzzi, Gilera and FB Mondial and was was due to the excessive cost of racing and falling sales of motor-cycles due to the demand in the new micro-cars and the Italian marques had 'demonstrated the undeniable technical excellence of their products and that recently there had been no foreign opposition.' ref (Italian Racing Motor-Cycles by Mick Walker pp. 198 Redline Books Ltd 1999 ISBN 09531311 14)

Adverse weather conditions are not confined to the Isle of Man. During the winter of 1958 the FIM banned streamling on racing proto-types due to concerns over the aerodynamic stability and a number of recent racing accidents including the death of Roberto Colombo at the Belgium Grand Prix. The 'dustbin' fairing was replaced by the small 'dolphin' fairing. Moto Guzzi also found that the 'dolphin' fairing increased the stability of their racing motor-cycles. Agljones (talk) 13:25, 18 March 2008 (UTC)