Talk:Islamic view of Ezra

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Good article Islamic view of Ezra has been listed as one of the Philosophy and religion good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can delist it, or ask for a reassessment.
December 6, 2007 Good article nominee Listed
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[edit] Jewish perspective, content structure

reverted the old content structurem, do not use POV "claim" - as from Islamic perspective it is not a claim and that is what this article is. I will strongly recommend that those adding to Jewish view create a new article on Jewish view of Ezra, as its already a big section of Jewish perspective with repetitive views. ~atif Talk 02:05, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

Well, what is it then, besides a claim? An assertion? A statement? It is all the same thing. Islam never makes a claim that Ezra is divine, neither does Judaism. It is only Islam's contention ABOUT Judaism which makes such a claim. As for "Jewish view.." being that Ezra was a Jewish prophet, born a Jew, lived a Jew, and died a Jew, the main article is the proper place for that. In this article, to support WP:NPOV, any claim that Islam makes about Judaism needs to be balanced by Judaism's response, if the claim is felt to be completely erroneous, as is the case in this situation. -- Avi 13:43, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
How about "Quranic statements about the Jewish perspective", do you feel that more NPOV? -- Avi 13:55, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
Islam asserts that some Jews considered Ezra as divine, it does not blame Judaism's tenets. Thats why read second verse, it says "They take their priests (Ahbar) and their anchorites to be their lords in derogation of Allah ... yet they were commanded to worship but One Allah". Which means they were commanded through scripture pure monotheism, but some still got strayed. Hope you get Quranic view now? ~atif Talk 01:48, 17 November 2007 (UTC)

moved Islamic response to first para as it already mentions Islamic views. No need for Islamic response in Islamic view article. Title was wrong as Quran does not say about Judaism religion (read my last comment), only about Ezra's exaltation by some. ~atif Talk 01:48, 17 November 2007 (UTC)

just wanted to note... the responses section needs some improving in terms of source usage and application. the first two paragraphs come across as slightly OR (considering the sources used, which appear to be ancient and/or primary). it might also be useful to summarise the sources in prose instead of using extensive quotes. ITAQALLAH 12:00, 17 November 2007 (UTC)

I don't think a "response"-"claim" section is appropriate. We can write down all those information in a single section. --Aminz (talk) 22:23, 17 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Conterderministries

Yahel Guhan, please don't make angry exaggerations of "massive censorship". in this edit, you restore a sentence (which adds no new information) sourced to "contenderministries.org", a website of dubious reliability; you restore a paragraph which consisted of unsourced original research, and you reverted my correction of a quote. please explain your edit. ITAQALLAH 23:07, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

Please explain how it is of "a website of dubious reliability". Yahel Guhan 23:09, 19 November 2007 (UTC)
here's a more constructive idea: why don't you explain how that page is a reliable source? what new information does it add to the article? ITAQALLAH 23:22, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Relevence

Avi, would you please explain the relevance of the following passage to this article:

A fundamental tenet of Judaism is that God is not bound by any limitations of time, matter, or space.[14] Judaism holds the idea of any person being God, or a part of God, or a mediator to God, to be heresy.[15] As stated in the midrash of Exodus Rabba, chapter 29, section 5, as one of the explanations on the verse of the first of the Ten Commandments states: "...I am the first, I have no father; I am the last, I have no brother; Beside Me there is no God; I have no son."[16] The Book of Ezra itself, which Judaism accepts as a chronicle of the life of Ezra, and which predates Muhammad and the Qur'an by nearly 1000 years, gives Ezra's human lineage as being the son of Seraiah Ezra 7:1. The Jerusalem Talmud which also predates Muhammad by centuries, states explicitly in (Ta'anit 2:1) that “if a man claims to be God, he is a liar.”

It seems to me, it belongs to the article on God. Cheers, --Aminz (talk) 21:16, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

It places the Qur'anic statement in proper reference vis-a-vis Judaism's fundemental beliefs. The Qur'an's statement is tantamount to saying that "The Qur'an states that Christians do not believe Jesus was the son of God". That is something so fundamentally against Christian belief that it nearly obviates the need for a response. Similarly here, instead of bringing hundreds of sources as to Judaism's belief in the non-corporeality of G-d, stating that it is a bedrock of the religion demonstrates the thrust and basis of the few sources brought while simultaneously demonstrating that the beliefs brought in this article are repudiated by all streams of Judaism, which is the required balance. -- Avi (talk) 21:39, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
I don't have any problem with a brief mention that the orthodox Judaism does not accept the idea of God having a son in literal sense, but I think this is hardly anything that our reader needs to know(please see [1]). Further, in the above section we have mentioned that there is no extra-quranic source of such a belief available to us, also please see "later Muslim authors who heard from their contemporary Jews and Christians that the accusation of sonship had no basis mentioned three types of explanation" bit. I think these all makes it clear.
I suggest we provide an outgoing link to a section on another article on the Jewish view of God's having a son in its literal sense. --Aminz (talk) 21:52, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Another request

Hi Avi,

Thanks for shortening the passage on the Jewish view of God. Regarding "A fundamental tenet of Judaism is that God is not bound by any limitations of time, matter, or space, and that the idea of any person being God, a part of God, or a mediator to God, is heresy", it is sourced to Maimonedes etc who come from after Islam. I know that Islamic and Jewish philosophy had a lot of interplay and I am sure that this explains the current Jewish orthodox view. But I am not sure if such a Greek-based philosophical understanding of monotheism was present in the Jewish prophetic era. The sacred writers seem to have been using the anthropomorphic expressions for God less hesitantly (though I know that the current orthodox Judaism interprets them as metaphoric). I was reading something about the Kabbala the other day. They seemed to be less strict.

Can you possible please source this statement with references preceding Muhammad? Not that it is necessary but I'd guess it improves the article.--Aminz (talk) 09:57, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

Maimondes is acting as a codifier of discussion surrounding the Oral Law that existed from the time of Sinai. As I mentined above, this is so fundemental to Judaism that there was no need to specifically state it. However, there is the reference to Exodus Rabbah, which is accepted as being handed to Moses at Sinai as well, and codified around the time of the Mishna, which predates Muhammed by four to five hundred years. -- Avi (talk) 16:02, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
Avi, I do not refer to monotheism itself, but to a philosophically developed form of monotheism (as in God is not bound by any limitations of time). But never mind. I am happy with leaving it as it is in the article. --Aminz (talk) 00:25, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Book of Ezra

Britannica says it was written probably around 350–300 BC and not by Ezra himself. But I'd guess the Jewish tradition has it written by Ezra himself. From my perspective, mentioning that the book of Ezra "predates Muhammad and the Qur'an by around 1000 years" gives a larger time span for heretical views being developed. Would you please let me know if this is the reason we are mentioning this time span? Thanks --Aminz (talk) 00:31, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

The timespan is mentioned so to show that the earliest Jews do not believe Ezra was the son of Hashem and because there are manuscripts that are from B.C. times that clearly show that this book has always said he was the son of Seraiah in other words the oldest text speaking of Ezra never once says any individual thought that Ezra was the son of Hashem and also that the earliest text speaking of Ezra shows that the Jews never thought he was more than a mere mortal--Java7837 (talk) 02:39, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

Furthermore it states this because why would a heretical Jew think Ezra is the son of Hashem when it says in the Bible itself that Ezra is the son of Seraiah. Another reason is that people may not claim that the Book of Ezra postdates the time of Muhammad--Java7837 (talk) 02:42, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

Something interesting I have read is that a portion of the Torah has been found in Ketef Hinnom it dates back at least to 600bc not only that but some have proposed it dates back to 725bc it shows that the Torah has not been corrupted by the Jews as Muslims claim--Java7837 (talk) 02:46, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Good article nomination on hold

This article's Good Article promotion has been put on hold. During review, some issues were discovered that can be resolved without a major re-write. This is how the article, as of December 6, 2007, compares against the six good article criteria:

1. Well written?: The prose is well written, but there are these problems.
  • In some quotes it is unclear what the paranthesis refer to. If they were NOT part of the original quote, please replace them with square brackets, per Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style#Quotations. I am specifically thinking about these sentences:
    • "particularly because he was equated with Enoch as the Scribe of God, (and) could be termed one of the Bene Elohim. And, of course, he would fit the description of religious leader (one of the ahbar of the Qur'an 9:31) whom the Jews had exalted."
    • "chronological and geographical inaccuracies and contradictions; theological impossibilities (anthropomorphic expressions, stories of fornication and whoredom, and the attributing of sins to prophets), as well as lack of reliable transmission (tawatur) of the text."
  • And this sentence is incorrectly formulated: Ibn Kathir, in his Qur'anic commentary, mentions the reason for Jewish exaltation of Ezra was that he could write down the Torah out of his memory while, Moses could not get the Torah but in a book however "'Uzair got it without a book"
  • Note that {{cquote}} is not recommended for article quotations, per the same guideline.
2. Factually accurate?: Lots of citations to various sources, very nice.
3. Broad in coverage?: Yes
4. Neutral point of view?: Yes
5. Article stability? Yes
6. Images?: Sufficient

Please address these matters soon and then leave a note here showing how they have been resolved. After 48 hours the article should be reviewed again. If these issues are not addressed within 7 days, the article may be failed without further notice. Thank you for your work so far.— Fred-J 01:28, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

Thanks Fred for your review. We will fix the issues you raised as soon as possible. Thanks again for the view. --Aminz (talk) 01:32, 6 December 2007 (UTC)
echoing my thanks too for the review ~atif Talk 08:42, 6 December 2007 (UTC)
Fred, I have made some changes to the article. Would you please let me know if it looks good now. Thanks --Aminz (talk) 03:00, 6 December 2007 (UTC)
It looks good now, and I am passing the article. Thank you to all of the editors who worked hard to bring it to this status, and congratulations! / Fred-J 11:36, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] GA status

Congratulations, all. There were some issues at the start of the article, but thanks to the collaborative efforts of many people from very diverse backgrounds, the article is now considered one of the best the wiki has to offer, full of reliable quotes and impartially written and flowing prose. Well done, one and all. -- Avi (talk) 15:50, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

great part is that it reached its GA status within a month of its creation (7-Nov) :) ~atif Talk 00:56, 7 December 2007 (UTC)
Congratulations to you too Avi. And thanks very much for your edits to the article. --Aminz (talk) 03:07, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] The article is very confusing

After reading this article, I feel confused. The first sentence reads: "Ezra (Arabic: عزير, 'Uzair, Turkish: Üzeyir) was a priest and scribe who returned to Jerusalem from Babylonian exile." This is fine for Ezra, but this is "Islamic view of Ezra", isn't it? The first sentence must summarize the Islamic view instead of saying who he was. The lead says: "One Qur'anic verse (Qur'an 9:30) refers to a person named Uzair worshiped by Jews as "the son of God". Uzair is usually identified by Muslim commentators with the biblical Ezra, or sometimes with a man who slept for three hundred years. Modern scholars have also suggested the Biblical Enoch, Azazel and Osiris." This point is not found anywhere else in this article, so this sentence is not in accord with WP:LEAD. Is it only Qur'an 9:30 that calls Ezra "Uzair"? Is so, how is it called elsewhere, say, in the hadith? And if not, why does the sentence say "a person named Uzair" instead of "Ezra"? If there is a disagreement on whether Uzair actually refers to Ezra, why is this article called "Islamic view of Ezra" instead of "Uzair"? This problem permeates the whole article, as it hops from "Ezra" to "Uzair". What tradition does this passage come from: "After resurrection, he rode on his donkey and entered his native place. But the people did not recognize him, nor did his household, except the maid, who was now an old blind woman. He prayed to God to cure her blindness and she could see again. He meets his son who recognized him by a mole between his shoulders and was older than him. Ezra then led the people to locate the only surviving copy of Torah as the remaining were burnt by Nebuchadnezzar. He thus renovated the Torah to the Children of Israel."? When I read "Islamic traditions", I assume it means hadith, but no hadith are mentioned in this passage. The same applies to the Quranic verse just above it: the verse is for some reason in the section on traditions, though no hadith are cited. THe section title "Quranic statements about perceived Jewish exaltation" is weaseling and confusing. In this section, the paragraph on academic views is merely a collection of quotes. Is there a consensus academic view on this verse? Are there any groups of scholars who adhere to some theories? The article is silent about it, all one can read are quotes. Beit Or 18:28, 16 December 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for the comment. I have made some changes accordingly. There does not seem to be any academic consensus re the identity of Uzair, but there is a kind of consensus among Muslims (regardless of how that evolved) on that issue. Therefore I think "Islamic view of Ezra" is an appropriate title. --Be happy!! (talk) 03:50, 18 December 2007 (UTC)