Talk:Islamic music

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Contents

[edit] Citation

User:Zora, your recent edit removed the citations from the article, contra Wikipedia:Cite sources. Please re-add the citations, revert the text, or provide sources for your assertions. Thanks and happy edits. Hyacinth 03:28, 1 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Nice work integrating my edits. I now accept the loss of citation as it would be too difficult to keep among the uncited information all mixed up, because it is preserved on the pages of those genres. Hyacinth 05:12, 1 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Myself, I don't see the point of citing stuff that is so well-known that any source would have it. That's an academic self-defense tic that isn't necessary in an encyclopedia. Stuff that is recherche or controversial should be cited. If I've missed any of that, I'll fix it. Just let me know what you think needs work. Zora 09:09, 1 Feb 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Links don't work

A bunch of the links I added, by copying the addresses from one browser to another, have stopped working. I don't understand quite WHY. Are there enough people clicking on them that they've gone over their allotment?

I resume link hunting. Zora 06:55, 1 Feb 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Music vs. Poetic forms

Hamd, Naat, Noha, Marsiya, Taziya, Qaseedha, etc. are not Musical forms, but poetic forms. For example, done right and in conformance with tradition, a Qawwali session will start with a Hamd (in praise of Allah), then a Naat (basically, if I get it right, a Qaseedha in honor of The Prophet-and that capitalization is standard English usage; or was till American English became the global standard), then something in praise of Hazrat Ali (I think that's a Noha), then about Hussain, and work its way down the chain of Sufis. Then one can get into romantic stuff. I have seen an uncle get pissed and want to walk out when Nusrat Fateh Ali Khan jumped from a Hamd straight to romantic stuff.

Maybe we should separate the poetic forms from the musical forms--either in one article or in separate articles. Poetry in Islam, anyone?—iFaqeer (Talk to me!) 20:00, Feb 1, 2005 (UTC)

Aha! That's EXACTLY the kind of information we need in the article. I'll try putting it in, but would sure appreciate help. Zora 23:49, 1 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Okay, so how do you want to break it up? Two parts of one article--in which case it might need re-naming--or two articles?—iFaqeer (Talk to me!) 02:23, Feb 2, 2005 (UTC)
I would prefer two articles as there is a wealth of information on both topics. Perhaps confusion such as this could be prevented through the use of sources. Hyacinth 02:35, 2 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Two articles sounds better to me as well. Note that the subjects are closely linked, so it is entirely appropriate to link liberally and maybe even duplicate some info (I'll leave it to others to decide exactly how). Tuf-Kat 02:39, Feb 2, 2005 (UTC)
OK, I set up a link in the article, to lyrics. Go at it, guys. Zora 03:31, 2 Feb 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Respectful nameing

Although I am not a muslim, I am aware that many Muslims find naming of its key figures disrespectful without apropriate salutations, commonly "Peace be upon him". Would it be apropriate to edit the shortened form (pbuh) after the mentions of Mohamed(pbuh) and Allah(pbuh) in the article? A muslim friend once told me some muslims find it quite disrespectful, and disrespect is certainly not the intent of this article. Duckmonster 3:56pm 5feb2006 +8GMT

I don't really think it's disrespectful not to do that; it's only respectful to include that. However, Wikipedia must maintain a neutral point of view, which means omitting (pbuh). By the way, it should be Allah (swt) not Allah (pbuh) for Subhanahu wa ta'ala. joturner 05:39, 22 February 2006 (UTC)
Ok. Fair enough. However, I would argue basic polite cultural courtesy is not POV. Keep in mind I am not muslim, so I am not coming from that POV. However, if the consensus is it is unnecesary, then fine. Duckmonster 14:16, 8 March 2006 (UTC)
If you check the edit pages of some of the main Wikipedia Islam articles, you will find there are a virtual army of editors, many Muslim themselves, who make a point of going through and removing any of the phrases of blessing other editors have inserted after names -- some people feel very, very strongly that it reflects a bias. For many or most Muslims (myself included) it is simply not a big deal if the preference is to leave it off -- at the very least it is not something meant to be incumbent upon non-Muslims. --66.109.253.61 21:06, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Chat Groups

The yahoo group that was listed under External Links contains a wealth of information, including photographs, lyrics, translations, song lists. In that respect, it's really no different from a web site? In view of that, can we leave it in?

Much of the "lyrics, translations, song lists" info is unique and not available elsewhere on the net. --Sarabseth 12:01, 13 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Not music or singining at all

Adhan, Salat and Tajweed are all not musical or singing at all. I'd be interested in knowing how they are considered music. Adhan is "call to prayer", you do not sing it, you call it. You don't need any tune or rythem at all. calling salat singing is redculus, just because they say it all together does not make it music.

Tajweed is about pronouncing the letters and thewords properly, how can it be lumped into music?! --Maha Odeh 12:44, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

I honestly have no idea; i'm with you on this one. MezzoMezzo 14:27, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Neutrality

I've noticed that each time I edit this page in an attempt to make it more balanced, somebody returns it to exactly the way it was before within the day. For instance, I would write "Muhammad supposedly said music is haraam" only to have it return to something like "Muhammad said", and then have my comments on the debate over the authenticity of a related hadith deleted. To whoever is doing this, please stop. Since music is a controversial subject, both sides of the coin need to be represented so the reader can make his or her own judgement on the material.

I also get the feeling that the person responsible is a Muslim. If that is the case then I strongly advise him/her to be more careful, because this is a subject that frightens many people away from Islam when presented with such spin.

Roy akil (talk) 04:15, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

To my knowledge, there has been no scholarly criticism of the authenticity of the hadeeths - and it's not one hadeeth, but multiple ones - regarding the prohibition against music. In addition, this is actually found in most traditional tafseers of the Qur'an as well. Muhammad "supposedly" said is an insertion of POV as the insinuation is baseless. This is about presenting factual information to readers, not people's personal opinions or not "frightening people away from Islam". MezzoMezzo (talk) 04:54, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Thoughts

To some extent, I think this article should be merged together with the nasheed article. I don't think the recent insertions are constructive: the sources are generally not reliable and the shift in tone isn't encyclopedic. I'll try in the very near future to include a summary from the Encyclopedia of Islam and the Muslim world (p. 492 onwards) which includes a fair entry about this topic. It does mention that instruments, sensuous or non-religious music and the like have generally been considered forbidden/discouraged in Muslim thought (with the exception of a few Sufi groups). It also notes that most Islamic music is in the forms of songs (i.e. wedding songs, lullabies, devotional), poetry, chants (work songs, caravan chants, military) is generally accepted - this also presents as anashid. It appears that the latter group was considered to be "nonmusic" and the more discouraged types were classed as "music" proper. ITAQALLAH 17:28, 22 March 2008 (UTC)


Dear Itaqallah, Salam Alaykum,

please note that 'nasheed' is only one style of Islamic Music - therefore such a merger as you suggest would mislead fellow WikiReaders to believe that the only existing Islamic Music is nasheed!

Read through the article again and you'll find other important styles of Islamic Music such as qawwali, ghazal, (musical) dhikr, etc. also note others such as ilahiler, qasidah, gnawa, jilala etc. The list goes on and on.

Also the current edit "Permissibility in music" is currently strongly POV, only the viewpoint representing "music is haram" is sufficiently represented here, and earlier comments and their sources have been deleted. In case you were the fellow who reverted, please, either re-revert, balance this out or there will have to be some re-editing done in near future, insha'llah.

Regards and let's have an open and honest discussion about this topic,

Musa Emre —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.82.47.68 (talk) 21:47, 22 March 2008 (UTC)