Talk:Islamic mathematics

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The most active fields of research were Math and Astro. Actually there is an Indian influence too on Arabian or Islamic Mathematics (mathematics in islamic countries) when people from these places came to India, many places in India were centers of such activities. Usually it is believed that Arabians took the knowledge from India and spread it to the west other than their own contributions.
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[edit] No such thing as Islamic mathematics

The religion of Islam does not include math, there is no connection. Mathematicians who were living in regions where Islam was the dominant religion , does not imply that they were Islamic mathematicians . The term makes no sense , but is rather used in some sort of vain attempt at associating the glory of the accomplishments of mathematicians and scientists with the religion of Islam. The fact of studying the Qu'ran makes no impact on one's mathematic ability. The same goes for any other association of a faith with a scientific field. Thus editors who are going around weaving terms like Islamic mathematicians are using Wikipedia as a soap box.--CltFn 06:07, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

Talk on talk pages to gain consensus before moving. Add an NPOV if you are worried about these issues... you may be right but you need to discuss. Here's my problem. If anything is "good" you say it's not Islamic based and if it's "bad" like the invasion of Iberia you say it is Islamic. This is just adding systemic bias to Wikipedia because you don't have a coherent system for when to include religion as an influence... and when to not. We will get some discussion here before this is moved again and we will get discussion about how this should be dealt with over the whole gamut of articles. Thank you. gren グレン 07:31, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
I oppose the move. See also Talk:Islamic science. --Striver 10:26, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
I oppose the move as well. Islamic mathematics is a well-defined term to historians of mathematics with a precise meaning. It's pretty clear tha CtlFn again has no idea what he is talking about. If you don't like the name of this term, so be it, but don't start using Wikipedia as a soap box yourself. —Ruud 13:23, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
Islamic mathematics and Arabic mathematics are modern historical terms for the mathematical sciences in Islamic civilization from the beginning of Islam (A.D. 622) until the 17th century. Although most of the mathematicians in this period of Islamic civilization were Muslims, some prominent mathematicians had other religious backgrounds (Christian, Jewish, Zoroastrian). Arabic was the main scientific language but not necessarily the native language of a mathematician, who might have been Persian, Turkish, etc. (Definition by Prof. J. P. Hogendijk)

[edit] Islamic mathematics?

This is a discussion we really need to have. I completely oppose CltFn's arbitrary moves and changes on things he does not need acceptable but this does not make him wrong. What we need to discuss is "is there an Islamic mathematics?" Who uses that phrase? How is it used between different parties? Do Muslims uses it to glorify Islam while secular scholars use it as a term of convenience? If so we cannot conflate those differences as the same. Is attributing these mathematics to the Arabs any different than making it Islamic mathematics? Is it just changing it from a religious pride issue to an ethnic pride issue? What do mathematics historians call this? Personally I don't know what the title of this article will be but I'm pretty sure we'll need to have a section describing the fact that Islamic mathematics is a term in use but so is Arab mathematics. It is not one or the other and the supporters of each term have their biases. Arab nationalists want to glorify the Arabs while "Islamic nationalists" (for lack of a better term) want to use this to glorify Islam. We need to recognize that this is not a straightforward discussion of one is true the other isn't. Both have merit and both are propaganda. We could go for "Mathematics arising from the Middle East" however that is not a term commonly used and would therefore be hard to justify its usage. Let's have a serious discussion and not let this get into reverting before we have done that. gren グレン 18:51, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

Historians of mathematics use the terms Arabic mathematics or Islamic mathematics. I don't know who coined these terms, but I think it is far more likely that they were invented by ignorant Westerners than nationalistic Arabs or Muslims. This article should clearly mention that not all mathematicians that fall under this category were Arabs or even Muslims, but it is definitly not Wikipedia's task to "correct" unfortunatly chosen terminology. —Ruud 19:09, 30 April 2006 (UTC)
invented by ignorant Westerners ? Sounds a bit strong for a guess--CltFn 02:02, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] NPOV tag

Ruud / R. Koot, you removed {{accuracy}}. I have re-added it in the sense of making it totally disputed. I am doing this because I think CltFn would make the point that we don't have proof that these mathematicians were Muslim. Therefore what you have would be inaccurate. I don't want to debate this as a fact or whatnot but please do me the favor of not removing this. I will make sure this doesn't digress into a revert war but in order to do that we must address the argument of CltFn which is by no means unfounded. Therefore please do not remove those tags and let us discuss it first. As we come to a decision we can remove the tags. Revert warring will not be tolerated though for anyone here. If you start reverting without involving yourself in the discussion you should probably receive a short block. gren グレン 18:51, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

I removed the {{accuracy}} tag as the reference I added made it clear that there are no factual accuracy problems with the current article, and that adding two tags was just CtlFn trying to make a WP:POINT. I don't understand your reasoning ("[...] that we don't have proof that these mathematicians were Muslim") though, as the article states that Islamic mathematics refers to mathematics "including Arab and Persian mathematicians, as well as other Muslims and non-Muslims"? —Ruud 19:16, 30 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Religion and mathematics

It seems that the debate involving the {{TotallyDisputed}} tag centers around whether Islam was influential in the development of mathematics. This is silly.

The connection between religion and mathematics is well-known in the history of mathematics. The followers of Pythagoras held the religio-spiritual belief that everything was number. Religious aspects of the theory of number appear in the Theaetetus and the Timaeus of Plato. Even as late as in the 17th century, Leibniz would have said that the invention of calculus was a vehicle for peering into the mind of God.

Even in the early 20th century, Western mathematics has been highly influenced by Western philosophical thought, and philosophical thought does and should include religion. Only after the separation of logic into its own category (apart from mainstream mathematics) in the middle of the 20th century did the connection between Western mathematics and Western philosophy cease entirely.

Now, I am not an expert in medieval mathematics, but I am quite knowledgeable about the philosophy of mathematics. The suggestion that Islamic thought had nothing to do with the development of medieval mathematics seems highly improbable to me, and I believe that the {{TotallyDisputed}} tag should be removed. --Wzhao553 08:15, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

Agree, the NPOV concerns were easily debunked and I have already adressed the factual accuracy concerns. No one has voiced any concerns since. —Ruud 00:59, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
There is no connection between religion and mathematics that I can see, by the way what exactly is Islamic thought and what does it have to do with Mathematics. This seems to be obvious to you , so , how about explaining this to other wikipedia editors who may not be see the connection. .--CltFn 01:51, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Renaming this article to Middle-Eastern mathematics

I would like to open a discusion about renaming this article to Middle-Eastern mathematics as Mathematics has nothing to do with Islam or Judaism or Buddhism or Christianity or any religion , unless that religion provides mathematical principles and datums that would justify such an association. --CltFn 02:16, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

But religion and mathematics are heavily intertwined. Mathematics provided a religious and spiritual world-view for the Pythagoreans. Logical and "mathematical" proofs of the existence of God have been attempted by Anselm, Descartes, Leibniz, Spinoza and many others. Then there's Kronecker's famous quote that "God made the whole numbers; the rest is the work of man." Even proponents of intelligent design have begun to employ probability theory in their arguments against naturalism. Why do you feel that there is no justification for such an association? --Wzhao553 02:31, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
Give me one tenet from Islam that correlates with Mathematics. --CltFn 02:59, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
How about Averroes' attempt to provide mathematical rigor to his theological and metaphysical reasoning by attempting to reconcile Islam with Aristotelian philosophy? --Wzhao553 03:14, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
What tenet from Islam are you referring to? --CltFn 03:24, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
Averroism. --Wzhao553 03:40, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
Yes I see , thanks to this remarkable tenet I can see my math skills increasing already.--CltFn 03:48, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
  • Oppose. The term "Middle-Eastern mathematics" is a neologism, while the term "Islamic mathemtics" is as well-established in the history of mathematics as "Renaissance" is in the history of Europe. —Ruud 02:34, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
No need to vote , this is not a vote but a discussion --CltFn 02:57, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
Where did I vote? —Ruud 02:59, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
  • Don't rename this. "Islamic mathematics" gets plenty of Google hits; "Middle-Eastern mathematics" only a few, most of which refer to something entirely different. --LambiamTalk 08:21, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

The term "Middle-Eastern mathematics" would be incorrect due to several reasons. Islamic mathematicians not only lived in the Middle East, they also lived in Central Asia, North Africa, Spain and India. Mathematics has also been studied in the Middle East since the days of the Egyptians and Babylonians (which already have their own articles), and continued in the days of the Chaldeans, Persians, Greeks, Romans, Syrians, Arabs and Turks. This article refers broadly to the mathematics of the Islamic-dominated cultures, and not just the religion of Islam, in the same way "Greek mathematics" refers braodly to the mathematics of the Hellenistic cultures, and not just the Greek people. Jagged 04:16, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] "Totally disputed" tag

CltFn re-added the {{Totally disputed}} tag on 2006 May 15 03:01, with edit summary: the dispute is all over the talk page and was mentioned in my comment when I inserted the tag the first time. But as far as I can see, all issues have satisfactorily been dealt with since. What else is left? CltFn should be more specific, especially in light of the fact that the tag was removed by another editor in good standing. --LambiamTalk 08:30, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] math typo

This bit seems to have an obvious typo:

Al-Haytham (b. 965), also known as Alhazen, in his work on number theory, seems to have been the first to attempt to classify all even perfect numbers (numbers equal to the sum of their proper divisors) as those of the form \ 2^k-1(2^k - 1) where \ 2^k - 1 is prime.

since 2k − 1(2k − 1) is always 1. I can think of a few things that the author might've meant to write, but I don't know the subject well enough to correct it myself. Staecker 12:00, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

I've corrected the formula, which now reads: \ 2^{k-1}(2^k - 1). --LambiamTalk 14:14, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Contradiction

Supposedly Al-Batanni (868-929) produced the relationship tanx = sinx/cosx

However, it says later that Abu'l-Wáfa (940-998) invented the tangent function.

I dont see how you could get a relationship for the tangent function before the tangent function was invented. Harley peters 17:04, 28 September 2006 (UTC)


[edit] Move to Islamic mathematics or Mathematics in Medieval Muslim World

Between the two titles "Islamic mathematics" and "Arabic mathematics", the first one is much less misleading. The overwhelming majority of those mathematicians were muslim (at least in name), while only a small minority of them were Arab. I should also remind that the previous move to "Arabic mathematics" (in March 10) wasn't based on any concensus. this page should either move back to "Islamic mathematics" or to "Mathematics in Medieval Muslim World" (which I think is much more accurate). Jahangard 17:57, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

Arabic mathematics and Islamic mathematics are the only two terms used by historians mathematics and therefore the only acceptable titles. Both are misleading as the mathematicians it concerns where neither all Arabs not all Muslim. The term Islamic mathematics has recently been gaining more prominence:

Although many able authors have contributed valuable articles, the work as a whole is flawed, to such an extent that one hesitates to recommend it as a general reference on the subject for non-specialists. The flaws are of an editorial nature, and the first is the title chosen for the work. It is no disservice to Arabs (modern or medieval) to point-out that non-Arabs (principally Persians and Turks) also played important roles in the development of medieval Islamic science, and these roles should be acknowledged in the choice of title. "Islamic" is a very serviceable epithet and should have been used, rather than "Arabic," to describe the science being studied. — J. L. Berggren on Roshdi Rashed's Encyclopedia of the History of Arabic Science. (Journal of the American Oriental Society, Vol. 120, No. 2. (Apr. - Jun., 2000), pp. 282-283.)

but on the other hand seems to attract a lot of frustrated people which believe the name implies a closer connection to Islam than it does in reality (see posts above.) —Ruud 18:57, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
Usually, shorter names and phrases are more common than the longers. However, for controversial names, avoiding the ambiguity and the controversy is much more important than other criteria. Therefore, "Mathematics in Medieval Muslim World" is a much better title compared to the other two. Also, between "Islamic mathematics" and "Arabic mathematics", although both of them can be misleading, the second one is much more misleading, because the overwhelming majority of those mathematicians were not Arab. Anyway, it's better to see the opinion of other wikipedians. Jahangard 22:54, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
How about Arabic and Islamic mathematics thats the title used for this period in History of mathematics. It neatly escapes the conflict and is an acurate description. --Salix alba (talk) 15:39, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
It still has the problems that I mentioned (e.g. ambiguity). Mathematics in medieval Islamic world is the exact description of the topic. I think, Also, titles such as "Medieval Islamic Mathematics" or "Mathematics of Medieval Islam" are fine (the first one is consistent with "Medieval European Mathematics" and the second one is already used in the title of a relevant book). Jahangard 03:46, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Survey for the requested move

Arabic mathematics → Mathematics in Medieval Muslim World — That's what this page is about. For the detail of the discussion see above. Jahangard 23:07, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

Add  * '''Support'''  or  * '''Oppose'''  on a new line in the appropriate section followed by a brief explanation, then sign your opinion using ~~~~. Please remember that this survey is not a vote, and please provide an explanation for your recommendation.

[edit] Survey - in support of the move

  • Support per previous discussion. Jahangard 23:07, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
  • Reluctant Support The page should be moved from Arabic mathematics (most of these people are not Arab), but I'd still prefer the old title Islamic mathematics. --Mardavich 23:14, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
    • I believe this is a misunderstanding of the meaning of the word "arabic", which refers to language. If it were referring to Arabs, the correct term would be "Arabian mathematics" or "Arab mathematics". In any case, I believe some cool reflection is needed here, and comment further below.
  • Support, Islamic mathemaathics is more appropriate. Islamic mathemaathics is also consistent with related WP articls such as Islamic science, Islamic medicine, Islamic astronomy,Islamic astrology ...(Arash the Archer 02:07, 18 April 2007 (UTC))
  • Support The page should be movd to Islamic Mathematics, since most of the people here are not Arabic--Pam55 01:47, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
  • Support Far less POV title, and is far more accurate. It should be titled Mathematics in Medieval Muslim World. Also note that many of the other articles are open to discussion about being moved as well.--Sefringle 01:51, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
  • Support: "Arabic Mathematics" would limit the Mathematics researches to the Arab world, while "Mathematics In Medieval Muslim World" will reflect all the works done in all Muslim territories (Arab, Turkish, Persian). -Ariana310 07:24, 19 May 2007 (UTC)
    • Ariana, it seems from your comment that you did not notice the remark I already made a few lines above concerning the distinction between arabic and Arab/Arabian. I do hope you have taken the trouble to read the many interesting discussions on this page (above and below) before expressing your opinion. Geometry guy 14:33, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Survey - in opposition to the move

  • Veto "Arabic mathematics" and "Islamic mathematics" are the only two terms used to describe this era in the history of mathematics. Wikipedia is not the place to "correct" unfortunately chosen terminology. —Ruud 23:23, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
As I explained before, for ambiguous or controversial names, the popularity of a name is not the main criterion. About the usage, there is already a book with the title Mathematics of Medieval Islam. So, claiming that "Arabic mathematics" and "Islamic mathematics" are the only two terms used to describe this era in the history of mathematics is simply wrong. Jahangard 23:39, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
Anyone who looks hard enough can find exceptions to the rule. Read the comment of the reviewer to see how he names the subject of this book. —Ruud 23:55, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
So what? I've already mentioned that "Islamic mathematics" is more commonly used (mostly because it's a shorter name). I'm saying that 1) For a controversial topic such as this, avoiding the ambiguity is much more important than the usnig the most comon names. (see WP:Name). 2) Terms such as "Mathematics of Medieval Islam" are already used in the related literature, to refer to the topic of this page. Jahangard 00:18, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
It's not a common and accepted usage. —Ruud 00:25, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
As a side note the author of this book is also the author of the article "Arabic mathematics" in Encyclopaedia Britannica. —Ruud 00:34, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
It is not an acceptable usage?!!! That's the title of one of the most important books on this subject. Jahangard 00:55, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
I did not say acceptable, I said accepted. —Ruud 08:19, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
  • Rethink required. Now that this issue appears to have cooled down a bit, I think a serious rethink is needed. A month ago, I would not have been in the least bit bothered what this article is called, but since then I have seen the colossal waste of time that can be generated when people attempt to categorize by religion (this is not, I hasten to add, a comment on this discussion). Let me make some remarks.
    1. This article is closely associated with the category Category:Islamic mathematics formally known as Category:Arabic mathematics. I came here because of the current CfD on Category:Jewish mathematicians. One of the arguments used by the Jewish-by-occupation pressure group for the existence of this category is that it is "similar to" Category:Arab mathematicians. The argument is flawed, but it is difficult to counter effectively at the moment, because our own (mathematics) house is not in order. For one thing, Category:Arab mathematicians should probably be renamed, but there is another point...
    2. One of the arguments I would like to employ at the CfD to explain the distinction is that there is no Jewish mathematics (or Category:Jewish mathematics), but there is Arabic mathematics (and Category:Arabic mathematics). Then I click on these links and find myself in an Islamic world. A Jewish editor following these links is hardly going to be impressed.
    3. I do not deny that personal and societal religion has a role to play in scientific and mathematical thought. However, calling this Islamic mathematics is a bit like calling the mathematics of (say) 15th-18th century Europe Christian mathematics. Similarly, although the society was Islamic, I am not convinced that "Mathematics of the Islamic/Medieval Muslim world" is any more helpful a choice of title than "Mathematics of the Christian world" or "Mathematics of the pagan world". It seems to me to be wiser to avoid using religious terms unless there is clear case that religion is central to the description of the topic.
    4. This brings us back to the issue that started this debate: Arabic mathematics is misleading because "The overwhelming majority of those mathematicians were muslim (at least in name), while only a small minority of them were Arab." I sympathise with this point of view, and agree that the established term "Arabic mathematics" is not ideal — however, this concern is actually a misunderstanding of the meaning of the word arabic. The OED defines it to mean "the semitic language of the Arabs" and "of or relating to Arabia (especially with regard to language and culture)". The noun and adjective referring to people is Arabian or simply Arab.
In other words, Arabic mathematics does not refer to Arabs at all, it refers to the indisputable fact that this mathematics was written in Arabic! It was the lingua franca of the time. I understand that many readers (especially non-native English speakers) may miss this point, but the solution is simple: spell out the meaning of the name in the introduction to the article. Please think on it. Geometry guy 12:10, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
You have observed the difference between "Arabic" and "Arab" (or "Arabian"). You should also look at the difference between "Islamic" and "Muslim". This page is not directly about religoius background. This page (and the corresponding category) is about the mathematics of a historical civilization which is called "Islamic civilization", or more precisely "Medieval Islamic civilization" (not "Arabic civilization"). That's why most of the recent works on this subject use "Islamic Mathematics" or "Medieval Islamic Mathematics" or similar terms. To avoid the ambiguity, I had proposed a title such as "medieval Islamic mathematics" (or "Mathematics in medieval Islamic world"). Based on the discussion in this page (and the survey), I moved the page to "Medieval Islamic Mathematics". However, later, the page was moved to "Islamic mathematics", without furthur discussions on the talk page. I should also note that until now, the mathematic pages, are categorized based on nationality (for modern era), ethnicity, or the culture (civilization), not the language. We don't refer to Indian mathematics as "sanskrit mathematics". The same is true for medieval European mathematics which is not called "Latin mathematics" (sometimes the language and the historical culture have the same word, like "Greek civilization"). A title such as "Medieval Islamic mathematics" avoids any ambiguity. It clearly shows the relation to the well-defined term "Medieval Islamic civilization", and after all, this page is about mathematics in that civilization. I should also note that one of the best recent works on this subject have used "Mathematics of Medieval Islam" as the title. About other pages, if it is related to a certain civilization and culture, we can have a page (and a correponding category). For example, if there are sufficient resources on "Mathematics in ancient Jewish civilization", we can have a page on "ancient Jewish mathematics" (related to a certain civilization, not just the religious background of the mathematicians). Jahangard 14:51, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
This difference was not noted before and is the main justification given for support votes in the survey, so I think it needs to be considered.
About the main justification of the previous discussion, I had mentioned that both "Arabic mathematics" and "Islamic mathematics" acn be ambiguous (the first one might be confused with Arabian ethnicity and the second one might be confused with the muslim religious background, rather than the relation to "Islamic civilization"). I explained that the first ambiguity is much more misleading than the second ambiguity (because, after all, the overwhelming majority of those matematicians were muslim, while only a minority of them were Arab). However, I argued that it's much better to have a title which not ambigious (that's why I proposed the move to "Mathematics in Medieval Islamic World" or "Medieval Islamic mathematics"). Also, I agree that we need to think more about the title (we probably need to have another survey, because in the previous survey, the choice between "Medieval Islamic mathematics" and "Islamic Mathematics" is not clear).
Yes you did, and now you are saying it again. I disagree with your assertion about levels of ambiguity, and your justification in terms of numbers, but I have more-or-less said that already too. Anyway, concerning the point of agreement, there appears to be a useful discussion starting at the WikiProject. Geometry guy 18:33, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
Anyway, I followed your suggestion: Islamic is both a redirect here, and a derived adjective in the dictionary, which gives two meanings for Islam: the religion of the Muslims, and the Muslim world. It defines Muslims as followers of this religion, and Muslim (adj.) means "of the Muslims or their religion". This didn't reassure me much. I also don't find it helpful to bring the article's history into the discussion.
As for the more substantive points, I didn't quite get the relevance of sanskrit etc., as the term "Arabic mathematics" clearly is commonly used, along with "Arabic culture" and and "Arabic literature". I admit my final paragraph oversimplified the issue by saying that "Arabic" refers to the language (it does, but not only) — I did this to emphasise that it is not used to refer to the people. I did appreciate the nuances you articulate concerning "Islamic civilization", but ask you (and others) again to think on it. I will too. Geometry guy 16:08, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
My main point was that categorizing mathematics based on the language is not very common. Also, there are some practical problems. The fact is that although most of those mathematical works (in the Medieval Islamic world) are written in Arabic, some Medieval Islamic mathematicians have works in other languages (specially Persian). For example, Jamshid Kashani has written in both Arabic and Persian. In doesn't make sense to separate these works just based on the language. The same thing can be applied in our time. There are many 20-century mathematicians who have written both in French and English languages (or both German and English), and it does not make sense to gategorize their work based on the language, however it still makes sense to categorize works in certain branches of mathematics, based on the school of thought, which is indirectly related to the country or the academic institutes (for example "French school of algebraic geometry" which was heavily influenced by works of Serre and Grothendieck). Jahangard 17:11, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
You misunderstand/misrepresent my comments here. Who is talking about categorizing by language? Not me, and I thought I had clarified. Slicing up mathematics/mathematicians by language is indeed a stupid idea. Anyway, there are enough categorizations: I hope there is not going to be Category:Mathematics/Mathematicians by civilization either!
"Arabic", like "Greek", is a word with nuances covering language, literature and culture. It is just one way to describe the mathematical culture of that era. Islamic and/or Muslim is another way. The mathematicians weren't all Muslim, and they did not all write in Arabic all the time, so what can we do? Reflect on it, and hope consensus finds a good solution. Geometry guy 18:33, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
Yes, Arabic can also refer to a culture, literature, ... . However, this page is about mathematics in a historical civilization/culture which is called "Islamic civilization" or more precisely "Medieval Islamic civilization". Nowadays, nobody call that culture/civilization "Arabic civilization" (In 19-century or early 20-century European texts you may find this term synonymous with "Islamic civilization", but, in recent years this special usage of the term is obsolete and "Arabic culture", or "medieval Arabic culture" may only refer to a sub-category of "Medieval Islamic culture/civilization" not the whole civilization). I still prefer "Medieval Islamic mathematics" because it avoids possible ambiguity. Jahangard 20:53, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
You make several strong assertions here without justifying them, and I have found plenty of material on this page (including some quoted sources) which disagrees with them. Furthermore, I am not so old, and have always heard of the mathematics and mathematicians that gave us algebra and algorithms referred to as arabic. This mathematics did indeed take place in an Islamic civilization, but that does not mean it is necessarily the most sensible name for the category. Finally Wikipedia does not innovate: when you say in recent years this suggests a movement towards replacing terms like arabic by more politically correct (? I am not sure if that is the right phrase, or a fair comment) terms like Islamic. I have nothing against such a trend, but it is not the job of Wikipedia to advance it. This is what policies like NOR and NPOV are intended to avoid. Geometry guy 14:29, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Discussion by approval?

Jahangard has suggested in the above discussion that

...we need to think more about the title (we probably need to have another survey, because in the previous survey, the choice between "Medieval Islamic mathematics" and "Islamic Mathematics" is not clear).

It will be clear from my contributions here that I share this view. Can I suggest, however, that it might be more productive to have a discussion by nomination and approval, rather than the more adversarial support/oppose approach? In this procedure, editors can nominate possible titles for this article which other editors can support or comment on. Anyone can nominate as many titles as they like, and everyone can support as many options as they wish, in the spirit of approval voting, although as usual, it would not be helpful to call it a vote. This approach might help to generate and refine solutions to the naming problem which has been occupying editors here for so long. Geometry guy 14:51, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

I would suggest summarizing the pros and cons of each title, in an as neutral way as possible, between the nomination and voting phase. —Ruud 23:51, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

I had in mind a more interactive approach. Obviously the nominator would discuss the pros (and if they are truly wikipedian, also some of the cons), but further pros and cons could be added by other users. One reason for this approach is that new ideas for titles could be generated during the process. Also, I emphasise, it is rarely a good idea to have a vote in wikipedia: it is the weight of argument, not the weight of numbers that really matters when trying to find consensus. Geometry guy 00:00, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Ibn al-Haytham

In the list of mathematicians in this article we should just bring the lead statement of the coresponding main article without any change or discussion. Ibn al-Haytham article indicates that he was born in Basra which is now currently in Iraq but it doesn't say he was Iraqi. If anyone doesn't agree with this please take it to the main article of Ibn al-Haytham first and if there was a consensus about that we will change here accordingly. (Arash the Archer 00:59, 26 April 2007 (UTC))

Dear Arash,Iraqi does not mean ethnicity Iraq is a country and as long as that person born in that country and have a surname such as Al-Basri then He is Iraqi I did not say he was Arab or Persian I just said he was Iraqi. Arab Iraqi or Persian Iraqi is another issue. Also saying Many/Most of the important mathematicians were Persians is considered POV because some of them their ethnicity is not clear or controversial, also who is going to decide who was important and who wasn’t?!. I can also say many of them were Arabs since at least 40% of them were definitely Arabs. If you still disagree please let me know so we can discuss the issue until we agree:).Thanks--Aziz1005 20:53, 26 April 2007 (UTC)
As I told you before this is not the place to discuss if he was Iraqi or not. There are very good reasons why we can not say he was Iraqi(the main one is that Iraq wasn't a country until 20th century) You should go to Talk:Ibn_al-Haytham if you want to discuss it. In this article we should just bring the lead of Ibn al-Haytham main article.Cheers! (Arash the Archer 21:10, 26 April 2007 (UTC))
Iraq is a country even before the 20th century and it's mentioned in many historical books. Anyway, if you still want to remove the word Iraqi from here as far as it is not mentioned in the main article that could be understood because as you said if there is an issue about that man we should discuss it there, I’ll do a research about Ibn Alhaytham then I can discuss the changes there. However the other sentence (Many/Most of the important mathematicians were Persians is considered) is still POV therefore I still disagree with reverting it back to the article.Salam--Aziz1005 23:20, 26 April 2007 (UTC)
You agreed to delete the word Iraqi according to the Ibn al-Haytham main article, so why do keep adding it? Regarding the other sentence it is no doubt that Many of the most important mathematicians were Persians. It is also not POV to put it in the article since most of people do differentiate between Arabs and Persians and this sentence it illuminative.(Arash the Archer 21:14, 28 April 2007 (UTC))
I reverted just because others who did not want to discuss the issue reverted my edit. Also because you did not respond!=p. I wrote Muslim instead of Iraqi, since the main article hasn't changed. The other sentence is pov because Now the title is Islamic mathematics not Arabic so there is no need to mention that sentence since most of those scientists were Muslims and it's not our job to count how many of them were Persians, Tajiks, Arabs or Turks, therefore it is still considered pov. What do you think?--Aziz1005 00:15, 29 April 2007 (UTC)
Ok, Let me take another look at the article to see if I can replace is with a more NPOV statement.(Arash the Archer 17:31, 29 April 2007 (UTC))

[edit] biographies

I'm going to rewrite the biographies section to be more concise, in chronological order and based on the lists from Hogendijk and MacTutor. —Ruud 06:14, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

Making the biographies more concise is a good idea. However, I don't think that relating them to modern countries (such as Uzbekistan, Iran, Irak, ...) is meaningful. Instead of that, their ethnicity (Arab, Persian, Turk, ...) should be mentioned. Jahangard 06:29, 30 April 2007 (UTC)
This is the format used by Hogendijk's list and the approximate location where any of the persons on this list seems far more more relevant than the ethnicity people which to ascribe to them. I might change it to a place of birth/death format later, though. —Ruud 06:38, 30 April 2007 (UTC)
I agree with Jahangard, modern countries/nationalities are irrelevant, their ethnicity (Arab, Persian, Turk) should definitely be mentioned, along with city of birth/death (Not modern country).--Mardavich 06:58, 30 April 2007 (UTC)
Could you give some arguments for that, as I don't find this obvious (in fact, I hold the opposite opinion) and have to note that it is quite common to refer to historic geographical areas by their modern name while leaving out any information on the subjects ethnicity. I'd strongly prefer to leave any discussion of the ethnicity of to the full biography, where it can be backed by a number of reliable sources. —Ruud 07:48, 30 April 2007 (UTC)
Well, there was no nationality in the classical times, people were identified by their ethnicities, referring to historic geographical areas as modern countries automatically associates the subjects with that modern nationality, and that's misleading. Since then, the borders have changed and the native populations have migrated and re-migrated many times (someone from Merv or Bukhara would have been an "Iranian" at that time, but not anymore) so Khwarazmi was no Uzbek, Abu al-Wafa was no Iraqi, and Al-Jayyani was no Spaniard. --Mardavich 08:08, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Proposed titles

[edit] Arabic mathematics

Pros
  1. Together with Islamic mathematics by far the most frequently used term in academic literature in to refer to this period in the history of mathematics. Of these two Arabic mathematics is probably used the most, however Islamic mathematics is more common in recent literature.
  2. This title reflects the fact that a key feature of mathematics in this era was the generation of new mathematical ideas which have become associated with the Arabic language, such as algebra, algorithm and (of course) Arabic numeral.
  3. Consistent with the naming of Babylonian mathematics, Egyptian mathematics, Indian mathematics, ...
Cons
  1. Not all, perhaps even only a minority, of the mathematicians in this period where ethnic Arabs and is therefore seen as offensive by some people, even though "Arabic" seems to refer to the language used to transmit science during that time.
  2. Although Arabic was the dominant scientific language of the Islamic world in that era, the mathematical works were not exclusively written in Arabic. Some medieval Islamic mathematicians have have works in other languages. For example, one of the main works by al-Kashi is written in Persian. Arabic is ambiguous and can refer to both "Arabic language" and "Arabic culture". Even among those mathematicians who have written their mathematical works exclusively in Arabic, many didn't belong to the Arabic culture. For example, Khayyam has written his main mathematical works is Arabic, but he is also famous for his Persian poetry (he is considered as one of the icons of Persian culture).
Quotes

  1. Let us begin with a neutral and innocent definition of Arabic, or what also may be called Islamic, science in terms of time and space: the term Arabic (or Islamic) science the scientific activities of individuals who lived in a region that might extended chronologically from the eighth century A.D. to the beginning of the modern era, and geographically from the Iberian Peninsula and north Africa to the Indus valley and from the Southern Arabia to the Caspian Sea—that is, the region covered for most of that period by what we call Islamic Civilization, and in which the results of the activities referred to were for the most part expressed in the Arabic Language. We need not be concerned over the refinements that obviously need to be introduced over this seemingly neutral definition. —Sabra, A. I. (1996). "Situating Arabic Science: Locality versus Essence". Isis 87: 654-670. 

  2. In the present case, the problems of the proper "historical" approach are further complicated by the difficulties of defining "Islamic" mathematics. One minor dispute is terminological: since "Islam" is primarily a religious term, it seems inappropriate to use it to qualify a science whch had very little to do with religion (especially when a number of its practitioners in the period in question were not Muslims). I prefer "Arabic," although that term too requires many qualifications. But, even when we allow "Islamic" to stand as a shorthand word for a cultural complex, we are still faced with the fact that the mathematics (like all the sciences) of that culture are simply a continuation of the Hellenistic Greek tradition. One of the most remarkable features of Islamic civilization was the way in which it took over and continued, in a different language and mostly in a different geographical area, the scientific heritage of antiquity, which was moribund in the contemporary Byzantine Empire, and in so doing breathed new life into it. There are a number of brilliant achievements in Arabic mathematics, but it has to be viewed as the direct continuation of the Greek tradition (and indeed is unintelligible without that background). Thus making "Islamic mathematics" a separate subject of study is artificial. Berggren, a scholar with a notable record of investigation of previously unstudied medieval mathematical texts, is of course well aware of all this, and of necessity allots some space to laying out the ancient Greek background to the topics he treats. But I should have liked to have seen in the book a more forceful presentation of the essential unity of Greek and Arabic mathematics. — Gerald J. Toomer on J. Lennart Berggren's Episodes in the Mathematics of Medieval Islam. (The American Mathematical Monthly, Vol. 95, No. 6. (Jun. - Jul., 1988), pp. 567-569)

[edit] Islamic mathematics

Pros
  1. Together with Arabic mathematics by far the most frequently used term in academic literature in to refer to this period in the history of mathematics. Of these two Arabic mathematics is probably used the most, however Islamic mathematics is more common in recent literature.
  2. Consistent with the naming of Babylonian mathematics, Egyptian mathematics, Indian mathematics, ...
  3. Consistent with Islamic science, Islamic medicine, Islamic astronomy,Islamic astrology ...
  4. "Islamic" refers to "Islamic civilization" which is a well-defined term.
Cons
  1. Seems to put some people into an "OMG Islam!!!1111!1!1"-mode, or at least causes them to misinterpret this as "the mathematics of Islam", while "Islamic" in this context merely refers to the Islamic civilization.
  2. How relevant is it that the culture of the time was primarily Islamic, when there were, for example, many Jewish mathematicians who contributed to the mathematics of the period? (This learnt at a recent CfD!)
Quotes

  1. Let us begin with a neutral and innocent definition of Arabic, or what also may be called Islamic, science in terms of time and space: the term Arabic (or Islamic) science the scientific activities of individuals who lived in a region that might extended chronologically from the eighth century A.D. to the beginning of the modern era, and geographically from the Iberian Peninsula and north Africa to the Indus valley and from the Southern Arabia to the Caspian Sea—that is, the region covered for most of that period by what we call Islamic Civilization, and in which the results of the activities referred to were for the most part expressed in the Arabic Language. We need not be concerned over the refinements that obviously need to be introduced over this seemingly neutral definition. —Sabra, A. I. (1996). "Situating Arabic Science: Locality versus Essence". Isis 87: 654-670. 

  2. Although many able authors have contributed valuable articles, the work as a whole is flawed, to such an extent that one hesitates to recommend it as a general reference on the subject for non-specialists. The flaws are of an editorial nature, and the first is the title chosen for the work. It is no disservice to Arabs (modern or medieval) to point-out that non-Arabs (principally Persians and Turks) also played important roles in the development of medieval Islamic science, and these roles should be acknowledged in the choice of title. "Islamic" is a very serviceable epithet and should have been used, rather than "Arabic," to describe the science being studied. — J. Lennart Berggren on Roshdi Rashed's Encyclopedia of the History of Arabic Science. (Journal of the American Oriental Society, Vol. 120, No. 2. (Apr. - Jun., 2000), pp. 282-283.)

[edit] Arabic/Islamic mathematics

(Or similar titles such as Arabic and/or Islamic mathematics.)

Pros
  1. Covers both of the most frequently used terms in academic literature with a neutral point of view.
  2. The combination of the two titles suggests that this is an historical period article, rather than an ethnic or religious one.
Cons
  1. Has the potential to offend both the readers who would dislike "Arabic mathematics" and also the readers who would dislike "Islamic mathematics"!
  2. It is quite uncommon, if not unprecedented, to give articles multiple titles on Wikipedia. Those are given the lead section.

[edit] Arabic and Persian mathematics

Pros
  1. Covers the two main cultures involved. Persian suggests period and arabic suggests it's not ethnic (but see Con no. 2 below!)
  2. Fairly concise, descriptive, would work for the category, and also suggests an option for handling Category:Arab mathematicians.
  3. Usual advantage of avoiding names with religious connotations.
Cons
  1. Nonstandard.
  2. There were mathematicians in this period who where neither Arab nor Persian (but for example, Turkish or Moorish). Unlike "Arabic mathematics" it would be quite difficult to explain that "Arabic and Persian" does not refer to the ethnicity of them but to something else instead.

[edit] Medieval Islamic mathematics

Pros
  1. Seems to be regarded as less offensive than "Islamic mathematics" by some people.
  2. Consistent with "Medieval European mathematics" (but see con #2).
  3. A similar title is used in one of the most important books on this subject: Episodes in the Mathematics of Medieval Islam.
Cons
  1. Medieval is only a temporal adjective and is superfluous as there is no "Ancient Islamic mathematics" or "Modern Islamic mathematics".

[edit] (History of) mathematics in (the) (medieval) Islamic civilization/world

Pros
  1. Seems to be effective at avoiding upsetting some people in the way "Arabic mathematics" or "Islamic mathematics" does.
Cons
  1. Would be inconsistent with the current naming of Egyptian mathematics, Greek mathematics, Indian mathematics, ...
  2. Would be inconsistent with the naming of other article son historical topic (e.g. the article on World War II is located at World War II, not History of the Second World War.)
  3. While a great title (of a chapter) for a book, Wikipedia is not a book but an encyclopedia. An encyclopedia is a list of terms followed by a description of that term (is this necessarily true for an online wikipedia which easily uses "redirects"?). The terms which people will encounter in literature, and then perhaps decide to look up in Wikipedia, are "Arabic mathematics" and "Islamic mathematics". An encyclopedia should not concern itself with "fancy" titles and is a descriptive work, not a prescriptive work and should therefore not try to "correct" unfortunately chosen terminology which is in common use by historians.
  4. Some of these variations do not lend themselves well as suitable names for the associated category.
  5. The lead section of this article would still start out "In the history of mathematics, Islamic mathematics or Arabic mathematics refers to ..." as these are the terms used in the relevant literature.

[edit] (History of) mathematics in (the) (medieval) arabic era/culture

Pros
  1. Titles such as these, as in the previous suggestion, have the potential to avoid upsetting some people, by making it clear that the term "arabic" refers to a cultural/linguistic rather than ethnic phenomenon.
  2. It is worth searching for titles which avoid the word "Islamic" (why?), yet do not lend themselves to other misinterpretations.
Cons
  1. Same inconsistency issues as above (how important is consistency?).
  2. The arabic era could be confused with the Arab empire, which is a sub-period, as far as I understand.
  3. Arabic culture still has the potential to be confused with Arab/Arabian culture. That historical culture is often called "Islamic culture" (or "medieval Islamic culture") and "Arabic culture" is mostly used in another meaning (refering only to the culture of Arabic world).
  4. Some of these variations do not lend themselves as suitable names for the associated category.
  5. The lead section of this article would still start out "In the history of mathematics, Islamic mathematics or Arabic mathematics refers to ..." as these are the terms used in the relevant literature.

[edit] (History of) Mathematics and Islam

Pros
Cons
  1. This refers to a totally different topic than that discussed in this article.

[edit] (Medieval) Middle Eastern mathematics

Pros
  1. Using a geographical term is less divisive than using a term with ethnic or religious connotations.
Cons
  1. No reliable sources have been identified which use this term to refer to this period in the history of mathematics.
  2. Morocco, Spain, and Central Asia are not part of the Middle East.

[edit] unprotected, and please sign

I have unprotected this page, since it was protected nearly a month ago for edit warring. By the way, everyone should sign posts on talk pages with four tildes. I can't easily tell how long the stuff in the previous section has been there, and usually we look over the talk page before unprotecting articles, so the dates help. CMummert · talk 17:28, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

The section above is being written collaboratively and it would therefore be inappropriate or impossible to sign the comments. —Ruud 20:10, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Zadeh

This page is supposed to be about Mathematics in Medieval Islamic World, not about modern mathematicians with Muslim background (such as L. A. Zadeh). I removed the section about fuzzy mathematics. Jahāngard (talk) 22:22, 5 December 2007 (UTC)