Talk:Islamic astronomy

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Good article Islamic astronomy has been listed as one of the good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can delist it, or ask for a reassessment.

Contents

[edit] Early comments

Here is some material for the article:


In astronomy the Muslims integrated the astronomical traditions of the Indians, Persians, the ancient Near East and especially the Greeks into a synthesis which began to chart a new chapter in the history of astronomy from the 8th century onward. The Almagest of Ptolemy, whose very name in English reveals the Arabic origin of its Latin translation, was thoroughly studied and its planetary theory criticized by several astronomers of both the eastern and western lands of Islam leading to the major critique of the theory by Nasir al-Din al-Tusi and his students, especially Qutb alDin al-Shirazi, in the 13th century. The Muslims also observed the heavens carefully and discovered many new stars. The book on stars of 'Abd al-Rahman al-Sufi was in fact translated into Spanish by Alfonso X el Sabio and had a deep influence upon stellar toponymy in European languages. Many star names in English such as Aldabaran still recall their Arabic origin. The Muslims carried out many fresh observations which were contained in astronomical tables called zij. One of the acutest of these observers was al-Battani whose work was followed by numerous others. The zij of al-Ma'mun observed in Baghdad, the Hakimite zij of Cairo, the Toledan Tables of alZarqali and his associates, the ll-Khanid zij of Nasir al-Din al-Tusi observed in Maraghah, and the zij of Ulugh-Beg from Samarqand are among the most famous Islamic astronomical tables. They wielded a great deal of influence upon Western astronomy up to the time of Tycho Brahe. The Muslims were in fact the first to create an astronomical observatory as a scientific institution, this being the observatory of Maraghah in Persia established by al-Tusi. This was indirectly the model for the later European observatories. Many astronomical instruments were developed by Muslims to carry out observation, the most famous being the astrolabe. There existed even mechanical astrolabes perfected by Ibn Samh which must be considered as the ancestor of the mechanical clock. Astronomical observations also had practical applications including not only finding the direction of Makkah for prayers, but also devising almanacs (the word itself being of Arabic origin). The Muslims also applied their astronomical knowledge to questions of time-keeping and the calendar. The most exact solar calendar existing to this day is the Jalali calendar devised under the direction of 'Umar Khayyam in the 12th century and still in use in Persia and Afghanistan.

http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/introduction/woi_knowledge.html

--Striver 22:10, 2 December 2005 (UTC)


I have an article in preparation for this page. It will be ready for posting by mid-december.--Zereshk 03:20, 6 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Islam and the age and origin of the universe?

Hi,
Does Islam make any claims on the details of the age of the universe or on the origin of life on Earth? Is belief in Islam compatible with belief in a universe billions of years old and belief in the process of evolution by natural selection? Aaron McDaid (talk - contribs) 18:01, 11 February 2006 (UTC)

Yes there are details about that in the Qur'an. This source [1] can help understand origins. About the Islamic view of evolution it does not support that man evolved from apes but it is known that the Qur'an has referred to three different stages involved in creation of man from which a different evolution can be supported, but not of natural selection in my opinion.

He, Who perfected everything that He created - He started the creation of man from clay then he inculcated in him [i.e. man] the potential to reproduce through a drop of humble fluid then He embellished and fashioned him in due proportion; and breathed into him of His spirit and [thereby] developed in you [the abilities of] listening, vision and feeling. (Al-Sajadah 32:7) --a.n.o.n.y.m t 18:12, 11 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Does the Koran say the Earth is flat?

Hi.

I am no expert on the Koran. But Sura 18:86 seems to say that the sun sets in a pond of murky water. That would make the earth flat. Since Islam teaches that the Koran is the infallible word of God dictated to Muhammad, shouldn't any article dealing with "Islamic Astronomy" reference this?

I have to admit that I find the phrase "Islamic Astronomy" deeply troubling. The scriptures of virtually all religions include stories such as the pond of murky water. The stories of Xenu and the Galactic Confederacy may perhaps constitute "Scientologist Astronomy", if this is what we mean by the "astronomy" of different belief systems.

The essence of the scientific method is: an astronomical observation, such as, say, Herschel's discovery of Uranus, or an astronomical theory, such as Copernicus's, can be either true or false. But its truth or falsehood should be evaluated independently of the religious (or other) beliefs of the observer/theorist. That there were great astronomers who happened to be Muslims is beyond doubt. But turning this fact into an "-ism" within science is unscientific. It would be absurd to describe Victor Safronov's theory of planetary accretion as "Marxist-Leninist Astronomy", for instance. But if so, how is describing the work of middle eastern astronomers as "Islamic Astronomy" any less absurd? If your article is intended to be no more than a record of the scientific achievements of astronomers who happened to be Muslims, then fair enough. But I think this point requires clarification.

I hope Muslim flat-earth theories would answer your questions. -- Szvest 10:59, 14 July 2006 (UTC) Wiki me up™

[edit] Is there such a thing as "Islamic astronomy"?

Thank you. Having read the article on "Muslim flat earth theories" and the controversy surrounding it, I am happy to see the "pool of murky water" kept out of this article. I withdraw my comments on that matter completely.

However, I still feel that this article is really about "the contributions of muslims to astronomy"; and that there is really no such science as "Islamic astronomy", any more than there is a science of "Islamic geology" or "Islamic seismology". The article makes clear that astronomers who happened to be muslims were happy to build on the work of astronomers who happened to be infidels: and astronomers who happened to be infidels in turn built on the work of astronomers who happened to be muslims. This suggests we are dealing with a single subject - astronomy.

I hope my point will not be taken as a sneaky way of attacking Islam or its adherents. I don't see, for instance, how there could be such a science as "Gay astronomy" or "Socialist astronomy", even though I'm sure there have been astronomers who were gay and/or socialists.

On the whole, i agree w/ you. There is no religious aspect to be atributed to the article except that the contributors were Muslims. However, i can't think of any more accurate title. "Contributions of Muslims to Astronomy" sounds good but let us wait for other thoughts from other wikipedians.
P.S. Don't take me wrong but could you please sign your comments George? Cheers -- Szvest 13:55, 15 July 2006 (UTC) Wiki me up™

Yeah. The article's title could be better. "Astronomy in Islam" or "Astronomy in Islamic tradition" can also be some possibilities.--Zereshk 00:42, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

Hi Zereshk. I believe that Muslim astronomers had nothing to do w/ the religion except that Islam led to the developement of many sciences including astronomy. "Astronomy in Islam" or "Astronomy in Islamic tradition" are innacurate. I prefer "Muslim astronomy" though. -- Szvest 21:59, 16 July 2006 (UTC) Wiki me up™
Well, they did use astronomy and trigonometry for such calculations as the prayer directions, prayer times, etc. But then again, I dont think this is that big of an issue. "Muslim astronomy" is good too.--Zereshk 02:29, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Proposal to move this page to Islam and astronomy

This title implies that some astronomy is somehow "islamic" which is a POV. I think it would be better to call it Islam and astronomy, because that would not make any implications that astronomy is either Islamic, yet at the same time, it would mantain the connection between the two.--Sefringle 01:54, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

  • No objection. -- FayssalF - Wiki me up® 22:07, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
  • I strongly object per the arguments already given at Islamic mathematics and Islamic medicine: Islamic astronomy is the common name used in academic literature and the title "Islam and astronomy" implies a connection between Islam and astronomy which isn't there at all. —Ruud 20:22, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
Everytime Sefringle argues about articles' titles they forget about the common usage in academic literature. However, i showed no objection here as both of your opinions remain valid though leaning toward keeping the actual title. Sefringle, please read again the lead. -- FayssalF - Wiki me up® 21:13, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
There are some issues such as "Moon sighting" which are related to Islam, as Imam Sadiq says about fasting in Ramadan. Therefor we can speak about especial astronomy which relates to Islam. There is another kind of astronomy which is forbidden in Islam i.e. try to know future by using astronomy. --Seyyed(t-c) 12:18, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Some feedback

Great read. It is not an area I am familiar with so would be better to get someone more knowledgeable in Astronomy, but I can tell you that you should combine many of 1-3 sentence paras together. eg. in ;;Islamic_astronomy#Dials|Dials]] and Mural instruments below it. If the sections are that short it looks and reads better if they are continuous. I'd also change 'corpus' to 'body' in the lead, and make more note of the fact that many many star proper names are arabic. Good luck. cheers, Casliber (talk · contribs) 04:51, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Failed GA

I'm sorry, this was very, very close, but I failed it for three reasons:

  1. The entire lead is completely devoid of citations.
  2. Despite the enormous amount of citations, the article's subject is broad enough (for example, this number of citations would have been more than enough to supply a biography such as Joseph Louis Lagrange, but not this) so that there happen to be many unsourced areas. This relates to number three:
  3. Everything on the Almagest is unsourced, and furthermore, there is very little on it to begin with.

If I've overlooked something, feel free to correct me. Cheers, Nousernameslefttalk and matrix? 21:29, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

"this was very, very close," So we address the the three issues, you'll pass it for GA status?
1. Muhammad Ali Jinnah has a completely unsourced lead. Yet it's a featured article. (One would think that the criteria for featured articles ought to be higher and tougher than that for good articles).
2. Astronomy, which is a good article, has 56 citations. This article has 127 citations, more than double the amount. Astronomy is definitely broader in coverage than "Islamic astronomy". This is because astronomy not only includes "Islamic astronomy", "Indian astronomy" etc. but also many astronomical concepts not covered by these articles.
3. This is a valid point, though Ptolemy, the author of Almagest, lived and died centuries before Islamic astronomy came into existence.Bless sins (talk) 04:05, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
  1. I wouldn't have supported its FAC then. The lead should have at least one citation.
  2. Astronomy is actually a shorter article for some reason, but that's a valid point. I'll cross off number 2.
  3. The Almagest was still a very major work. If a section on it was expanded, and the lead was given a citation, I would definitely support this being a good article. It looks nearly featured material to me except for those two things.

Nousernameslefttalk and matrix? 17:31, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

Ok thanks for your input, it was helpful.Bless sins (talk) 20:19, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
Actually, I just sourced the lead myself. I'll also add some more on the Almagest now. Nousernameslefttalk and matrix? 18:23, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
I think this should be tried on FAC directly; skipping the Good Article process. I'll list it as A for now. Nousernameslefttalk and matrix? 18:59, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
Nominated here. Feel free to co-nominate. Nousernameslefttalk and matrix? 20:48, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
It's a bit early to nominate it for FA, but I think you've withdrawn the nomination. I think it should go through the GA process, from B class to A class looks like a jump. Thoughts?Bless sins (talk) 07:11, 7 January 2008 (UTC)
Thanks for the improvements you've both made to the article. I agree with Bless sins that the article should at least be nominated for Good Article status before being nominated for Featured Article status. Jagged 85 (talk) 08:22, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] GA renomination

This article failed a GA review, for reasons stated in the preceding section. The reviewer (Nousernamesleft) then proceeded to fix the article up (along the lines of the weaknesses pointed out when failing for GA. The user then promoted the article to A-class, where it was previously B-class, skipping the GA process.

I'm a bit uncomfortable with that. I'd like to see the article pass a GA process. Thus I've renominated it.Bless sins (talk) 05:14, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

Well, yes, I decided that it should be changed back to B class afterwards, but temporarily forgot about it (at that time I was trying to GA another article). Sorry about that. Nousernamesleftcopper, not wood 22:08, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Notes section

It's pretty aweful... for many sources there is no way to find it once the link goes dead (you haven't written out full reference or included retrieval date), at least one is dead already (the palestinian geocities page).Narayanese (talk) 13:12, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

Can you specify the note number so I can fix it?Bless sins (talk) 18:08, 12 January 2008 (UTC)
Ok I fixed it. If there's any other problems, please tell me.Bless sins (talk) 18:12, 12 January 2008 (UTC)
10-12, 82, 84, 87-91. Narayanese (talk) 04:29, 14 January 2008 (UTC)
I've just added the full references and access dates for those references you mentioned. I've also redirected the broken link. Jagged 85 (talk) 12:55, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
Additionally, what's "Rashed (2007)"? If someone could provide a link to a page with information about that book, that would be appreciated. Nousernamesleftcopper, not wood 22:10, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
The full title for the footnote "Rashed (2007)" is actually already in the Islamic astronomy#References section, but I've just linked the two together through the Template:Harvard reference format to avoid any confusion. Jagged 85 (talk) 00:12, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
Okay; thanks! What about Reference #73, which is nothing but "Y. M. Faruqi wrote:". It looks very similar to 74, and they cite the same statement, so I'll just remove it until further notice. Also, shouldn't each of the bold and italics subheadings be a section header? It's pretty annoying having to go back to the faraway timeline header to edit something deep into the article. Nousernamesleftcopper, not wood 02:56, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
They were sub-sections originally, but we changed them to bold headings because the contents table was becoming too large. Now I've found a way around this with the Template:TOClimit, so I've changed those headings back into sub-sections now. Jagged 85 (talk) 04:18, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
(resetting indent) More on notes: Could you provide a full citation for Kennedy 1960 and Kennedy 1961? Thanks. Nousernamesleftcopper, not wood 01:13, 26 January 2008 (UTC)
Kennedy 1961 already links to the full citation when you click on it. I can't really seem to find any Kennedy 1960 reference though? Jagged 85 (talk) 02:32, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] New efforts in Moon sighting

In recent years there are new efforts in some Muslim countries to see New moon[2][3]. Basically it has religious usage but it also lead to new scientific activity. [4][5] For example in Iran Ali Khamenei, Supreme leader, has established a Moon Observation Committee. Every month numerous astronomers who are try to find new moon.[6] They even use new technology and instruments[7][8] There are similar activities in other countries.[9][10]

There is also a compete for "Moon sighting record"[11]. This record is old and has been broken by another Muslim[12].

I was not familiar with the structure of the article, thus please add this issue wherever you prefer.--Seyyed(t-c) 12:09, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Islam and astronomy

In regard to former criticisms such as Is there such a thing as "Islamic astronomy"? I propose adding a section at the beginning of the article which discuss about the relationship between Islam and astronomy. There are especial issues such as Moon sighting and Navigating by stars which are suggested or ordered by Islam and some others like Fortune telling which are forbidden. --Seyyed(t-c) 12:25, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

So you mean a section that discusses astronomy in the Qur'an and sunnah of the prophet? Yes, I agree there should be such a section.Bless sins (talk) 16:39, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
Not necessarily. Quran says pray toward Kabaa. This obliged Muslims to use astronomy and even improve. --Seyyed(t-c) 13:28, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Successful good article nomination

I am glad to report that this article nomination for good article status has been promoted. This is how the article, as of January 21, 2008, compares against the six good article criteria:

1. Well written?: Passes
2. Factually accurate?: Passes, earlier issues reported by another reviewer were fixed by himself and Bliss Sins.
3. Broad in coverage?: Passes
4. Neutral point of view?: Passes, but little improvements are needed.
5. Article stability? Passes
6. Images?: Weak Pass , more images are needed for the purpose of illustrating instruments used, observations, etc.

A good article that might be an FA as well if some of these issues are addressed. I would encourage the editors to go for an FAN now. If you feel that this review is in error, feel free to take it to Good article reassessment. Thank you to all of the editors who worked hard to bring it to this status, and congratulations.— Λua∫Wise (talk) 11:22, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

Thank you for taking the time to review the article.Bless sins (talk) 05:32, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Astronautics and space exploration

I think this part is not relevant to this article. We can't gather all of the efforts which a Muslim participate in it in an article and call it "Islamic astronomy". This part refers to Muslim's participation in western astronomy. You see, It has neither been inspired with Islam nor been directed by Muslims community. --Seyyed(t-c) 11:59, 24 January 2008 (UTC)


[edit] Islamic school of astronomy in India and China

I think we've neglected of the Islamic astronomy in India which was active even after 1450. You can refer to these books and complete the article:

In China:

--Seyyed(t-c) 17:02, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] World view tag

I doubt about This statement:

"This is the period of stagnation, when the traditional system of astronomy continued to be practised with enthusiasm, but with decreasing innovation. It was believed there was no innovation of major significance during this period, but this view has been questioned by historians of astronomy in recent times."

The article focused on what happened in Uttoman empire where we didn't have any innovation.

In Iran a philosophical turning point happened. I mean Mulla Sadra introduced new philosophy which wasn't related to especial physical and astronomical interpretation. As you know most of the pre-modern philosophical schools are based on especial understanding about the "Aflak". Even Avicennism was related to especial understanding. Mulla Sadra's innovation had two effects. On one side the astronomy lost its former position, on the other side philosophy could survive without any need to astronomy. This explains why Islamic philosophy survived in Iran even after collapse of former astronomy which was geocentric. Furthermore it explains why later Iranian philosophers haven't pay attention to astronomy as Avicennian philosophers had.

In India, we had good efforts. I don't know whether Muslims had innovations or not, but we should investigate more.--Seyyed(t-c) 05:04, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

I am aware of Mulla Sadra's role in the Iranian philosophical Renaissance, but how is he related to the history of Islamic astronomy? The section on 1450-1900 does not only focus on the Ottoman Empire, but also on astronomers from Persia (i.e. Shams al-Din al-Khafri) and Samarkand (i.e. Ali al-Qushji). The only thing missing from that section is any mention of Indian or Chinese developments in Islamic astronomy. Jagged 85 (talk) 23:44, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Dubious reference for Ja'far al-Sadiq

The information in the article about Ja'far al-Sadiq all comes from a single highly dubious source, about which I have already raised concerns on the Heliocentrism talk page.

As a self-published work, the book is almost impossible to find in any library, and the editor responsible for placing the citation (now removed) in the articles on Heliocentrism and Ja'far al-Sadiq has acknowledged that he has not consulted a copy of the book. Instead, he obtained his information about it from a web-site containing extracts from it. If that is also the case here, it is the web-site where the information came from, rather than the book, which should be cited directly. But in any case, in my opinion, neither the indicated web-site, nor the book itself, can by any stretch of the imagination be considered to satisfy Wikipedia's criteria for reliable sources. Therefore, unless a reliable source can be found for the information, I believe it should be deleted. —David Wilson (talk · cont) 12:55, 1 March 2008 (UTC)

Since no-one has supplied a reliable source for this material, I have now removed it.
—David Wilson (talk · cont) 13:21, 15 May 2008 (UTC)