Talk:Islamic art

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

	Islam Portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Islam, an attempt to build a comprehensive guide to Islam on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, you can edit this article, or visit the project page, where you can join the project and/or contribute to the discussion. If you are new to editing Wikipedia visit the welcome page so as to become familiar with the guidelines.
???	This article has not yet received a rating on the quality scale.
???	This article has not yet received a rating on the importance scale.
Assessment comments This article has not been rated for quality and/or importance yet. Please rate the article and then leave comments here to explain the ratings and/or to identify the strengths and weaknesses of the article.

Please help improve this article or section by expanding it. Further information might be found on the talk page or at requests for expansion. (January 2007)

WikiProject Echo has identified Islamic art as a foreign language featured article. You may be able to improve this article with information from the French language Wikipedia.

Technically speaking, Arabic Calligraphy should be divided to enable us to create Islamic Calligraphy, reason being for i.e. Naskh script has no relation to Arabic Calligraphy per say, as it was solely redesigned by Ibn Muqlah (10th century. AD.), then reformed by Ibn Al-Bawaab & others into a graceful script worthy of being used in the Quran. In addition, majority of Quran copies are written in Naskh script (if not all) than in all the other scripts all-together - which is why we should not include Naskh under "See also" as being an Arabic Calligraphy only. Please comment, thank you. --NEWUSER|CARPEDIEM ^(talk) 17:39, Jun 1, 2005 (UTC)

Contents 1 Moving page 2 Hmm 3 Human figure 4 French article; overhaul? 5 Images anyone 6 Seeking the truth 7 Photo gallery 8 Islamic Art Origins 9 External links 10 Sourcing

[edit] Moving page

Wouldn't this be better located at "Islamic art"? I will move it unless anyone objects. Soo 13:06, 23 August 2005 (UTC)

Makes sense to me. >>sparkit|TALK<< 14:57, August 23, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Hmm

Tables, templates and images are skewing each other. Joffeloff 11:43, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Human figure

I know that many Muslims follow that tradition suggesting Muslims are not to make art representing the human form. However, both Mughal and Safavid art are considered "Islamic art", and both OFTEN portray the human figure. I think the point needs to be mentioned...Some Muslim traditions exclude imageries of the human forms, others are less restrictive. The article mentioned an 'exposure to the west' reason for Muslims relaxing the rules on depicting humans..I don't know that I believe that. If it's true, it's not only the west that shaped the change- Indian and Persian art has alot to do with motivating the artistic qualities of Muslim art in Asia. I think there's a consensus that human depictions are almost never found in mosques. I have a source anyway- the Pilot Guides video on mosques. I don't know that video sources count as documentation. If there's a challenge to that fact, I'll look up a textual source. His Excellency... 22:02, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] French article; overhaul?

Ok, the tags at the top of the talk page are right. This entry is as good as useless, completely ahistorical, and lacks a single concrete example (Dome of the Rock, anyone?). The French entry is superb. Would anyone object to my translating it and placing it here? --Javits2000 22:55, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

Good idea. I've tried to find some time to translate the French article but couldn't. I'd help if you'd start it. -- Szvest Ω ^{Wiki Me Up ®} 11:20, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

Brilliant. At present I've produced a rough text up through the Fatimids. At most points it's a fairly literal translation, but I've exercised some editorial discretion -- i.e. "L'art d'Afrique du nord est assez méconnu, par manque de recherches depuis la décolonisation" (!) is weg, as the Germans say. What's the protocol for a project like this: should I post little by little, or all at once when finished? --Javits2000 12:13, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

Ok, I've overhauled on basis of French article, as discussed above. Comments and corrections are of course heartily welcomed. A few points: 1) This is probably about a half of the French article, the historical narrative portion; the sections on technique, historiography, etc., still wait to be created. 2) PICTURES. Any help that might be offered in illustrating this article would earn a debt of gratitutde. The French article has quite a few good images, as do a number of the English articles linked here (i.e. individul monuments, cities, etc.). 3) Transliteration, etc. For the sake of convenience I've followed the transliterated forms of dynasties, names, cities, etc. already employed in the pre-existing Wiki articles. As a result there is of course little consistency. --Javits2000 12:45, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Images anyone

I came here expecting to find some Islamic art images, --HalaTruth(ሀላካሕ) 20:56, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

Try the link at the bottom of the page to WikiCommons; or the link at the side to the French article. And if anything you find there strikes you as a useful contribution to the main article, please feel free to help out by adding it in.--Javits2000 13:59, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Seeking the truth

I agree, I think this article should remind there are different traditions in Islam and human representation and the representation of the Prophet exists --tupinambah 12:38, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

Quite right, and many thanks for your contribution -- especially for a very useful source, and indeed one that's available online! I've moved it to a footnote only because it seemed too specific a discussion for the introductory paragraphs, which in any case already quite clearly acknowledge the existence of depictions of humans and of the Prophet. I also attempted to remove the rather contentious passages of your text (e.g. "contrary to the false claims of the media," or wording to that effect). It strikes me, however, that if this is a subject of particular interest to you (that is, the history of depicitons of the Prophet), then it might make a very interesting article in its own right, and one that could be prominently linked from this page. Regards, --Javits2000 12:48, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

Javits, thanks for your comments and changes, after all the text became much better. I would like to make clear that I am not interest exclusively in the Islamic iconography. My interest is on religions (and cultures) in general. Knowing that Islam has been victim of misconceptions for centuries and nowadays is, perhaps, the most misinterpreted, I think it is important for us engage on the debate and fight against ignorance. Finally, I would like to say I am fascinated by your subject knowledge - Byzantine Empire. Best wishes, tupinambah 10:58, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Photo gallery

The gallery at the bottom should be edited; either labelled with periods and placed with its respective text. A photo gallery is nice to look at, but it is not informative.Elliotb2 03:29, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

Agreed; it's my opinion that the present images in the text and the link to Wiki Commons are sufficient. The gallery could probably be removed. --Javits2000 08:42, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Islamic Art Origins

The foundation of Islamic art cannot be placed into a single century and onwards. Right? As with all art, it has absorbed some prior styles. It first sort of took form as a series of appropriations of preexisting Graeco-Roman, Byzantine Christian, and Sasanian art forms. Aren't the actual periods of art and their crossovers/stops/starts sort of difficult to date into a century or less? Just wondering. Also, the phrase "arts", in the intro, seems a little ambiguous and vague in my opinion. Could there be a more exact word to use? Sedonaarizona 03:38, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

I think the influences of Byz., Sasanian, etc. are discussed in the article, right? In any case the article starts with the foundation of the Islamic community, which can be dated pretty precisely. Before the 7th century, no Islam, hence no Islamic art.--Javits2000 21:28, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

Very true. Islam as a religion did not develop until the seventh century, and therefore the title of 'Islamic Art' could not be granted prior to that. Got it. Thanks!!!! Sedonaarizona 23:49, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] External links

Can someone please clarify what a "commercial link" exactly is that does not qualify as a valid "external link"? - Mussnoon (talk) 07:01, 1 March 2008 (UTC)

See the guidelines at Wikipedia:External links. I assume your post is in reference to this link, which you have added a couple of times. I see a couple of reasons for not including this; first, it appears to be designed to highlight the work of a specific contemporary artist working in the Islamic tradition, and does not constitute a major resource for information about Islamic art in general, or even about a particular subfield (compare e.g. Museum with no frontiers, a good example of a genuine resource). Second, its primary purpose seems to me to be "to sell products or services" (see under the guidelines, "Links normally to be avoided," no. 5) -- whether for charity or for profit is beside the point. --Javits2000 (talk) 19:11, 1 March 2008 (UTC)

Thank you. Yes, my post was in reference to that link. I had assumed it could serve as a collection of examples and since it was non-profit, I'd went ahead and put it in. I think the commercial link description in the first removal was inappropriate. - Mussnoon (talk) 04:29, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Sourcing

Although I have not had time to read it completely, this impresses me as a good and informative article. However it could be improved by better sourcing because many sections do not cite any sources . I do not want to put a tag it because that might give readers the impression there is something wrong with the article. Nevertheless, some editors could do a good deed by adding what is needed: WP:VERIFY. Malcolm Schosha (talk) 16:54, 18 May 2008 (UTC)