Talk:Islam in Denmark

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Flag
Portal
 Islam in Denmark falls within the scope of WikiProject Denmark, a project to create and improve Denmark-related Wikipedia articles. If you would like to participate, you can visit the project page, all interested editors are welcome!

Satellite Image of Denmark
Start This article has been rated as start-Class on the quality scale. (FAQ).
(If you rated the article please give a short summary at comments to explain the ratings and/or to identify the strengths and weaknesses.)
Mid This article has been rated as mid-importance on the importance scale.

Contents

[edit] No Reliable Source Yet

"The Qur'an, the holy book of Islam, is required reading for upper-secondary students in Denmark."

sounds like quite a claim. Can someone from Denmark independently confirm this? Alex.tan 10:02, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
I can't confirm it (being from Denmark) and I'm extremely sure a certain party in Denmark would make it big news, if it was so. We do have religion classes and the like, but it's up to the teacher to stuff in what ever the teacher likes. I do however vaguely recall some kind of requirement that the classes should cover major religions. 83.88.250.31 03:01, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
I added the statement. I'm fairly certain that Robert Spencer stated it as a fact. I can confirm within a day or so when I get around to it. Pepsidrinka 04:54, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
Because an anon removed it, I have added the claim back, with a second citation verifying it. I don't know the background of the author of the second author, he may or may not be as anti-Islam as Robert Spencer is. Pepsidrinka 06:16, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
After reading the entire piece I cited from, it turns out he is another anti-islamic writer as well. Pepsidrinka 06:56, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
I've checked around and found the specific law, and there is absolutely nothing in the law that requires reading of the Qur'an. If you can read danish try http://us.uvm.dk/gymnasie/almen/lov/bilag28.htm?menuid=150555 - so the statement that the Qur'an is required reading is simply false. 83.88.250.31 17:34, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
It would be much appreciated if you could find me the English version of the law. Or at least the name/number of the law so that I could do some independent research to verify your claim. And it is quite possible that the law you found is not the law that is referred to in the two citations I provided. Pepsidrinka 17:46, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
Here is another link verifying the claim. The source is the DY Nyheder, what looks to be a newsource in Denmark. Pepsidrinka 17:52, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
Well then it is so :), guess I didn't take note of that when it was news. BTW. lthe linked I dumped here earlier today is for 1999, so that explains that.83.88.250.31 23:02, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
Here is a link for the regulations of religious studies in Danish education (in english): http://us.uvm.dk/gymnasie/almen/lov/bek/supplement28.html - it does say anywhere that the quran is a required subject. IF one of the two of the religions studied besides christianity is islam, it is mentioned as a primary source of information. Jdonnis 16:02, 14 February 2006 (UTC)
Not quite sure what your trying to say (I think you forgot a few words), but nonetheless, this is dated May 1999 and every source I provided was at the earliest, 2002 or 2003. So chances are this is a compartively new rule/regulation by the Education Department in Denmark. Pepsidrinka 17:26, 14 February 2006 (UTC)
It is not required to read the Qu'ran. Why? Because the religion class isn't a /required/ class. It's an optional class, therefore it can't be required. However, if you choose the religion class, parts of the Qu'ran is required reading. http://us.uvm.dk/gymnasie/vejl/religion_b_valgfag/2.htm#22 is from april 2005. 83.88.250.66 19:48, 15 February 2006 (UTC)
Please do not provide non-english sources as proof that other claims are not true. If you provide me with a english source, it would be acceptable. Your non-English source will not cut it. Pepsidrinka 20:06, 15 February 2006 (UTC)
An anon keeps removing that sentence from the article despite the fact that it is backed up by mulitiple sources. Be on the lookout. savidan(talk) (e@) 22:19, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

Robert Spencer and David Pryce-Jones both coauthored anti-Islamic books together. The third link to supposed claim that Qur'an is required reading in Denmark schools is not working link. The claim doesn't make any sense. There is just one Muslim (at best) in Denmark parliament .. why would the qur'an be required reading in schools? What's the logic behind it? The one sentence (even if true) needs more sources and explanation. 72.129.170.249

Actually there are two, Naser Khader (R) and Kamal Qureshi (SF). Anyway I nicked the sentence since the class isn't required. 83.88.250.66 19:54, 15 February 2006 (UTC)
Here's a cached version of the link from google [1]. Pepsidrinka 20:38, 15 February 2006 (UTC)
Your link also says this: "But Education Minister Ulla Tørnæs said that it was only natural to make Islam part of the core curriculum as many upper-secondary pupils had friends who were Muslims and as students were required to learn about all world religions. "
That just confirms the point. The students are required to learn about other world religions. If you actually read the law, it outlines this pattern in optional religion class: Christianity + Islam + (Hinduism or Buddhism). Study of Islam and Christianity is required yes, but also either Hinduism or Buddhism. 72.129.170.249 03:04, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Quran is not required Reading

http://us.uvm.dk/gymnasie/vejl/religion_b_valgfag/2.htm#22

Parts of the Qur'an are required reading (just other religious text) in a RELIGION class. Religion class is optional. The student doesn't have to take the religion class.

That makes far more sense than exaggerated sensational one-liner by anti-Islamic authors "the Qur'an is required reading in Denmark schools" with no context -- and the claim makes absolutely no sense. 72.129.170.249

I will respond in a similar fashion as I did on the above section. You cannot verify something on an English wikipedia with a non-English site. Please provide me with the reference in English. At the very least, at least tell me what this site is. Is it the Danish Constitution. If so, what article and/or amendment. Is it a Danish statute? If so, what statute name and/or number. Providing a site that isn't English doesn't cut it here. Pepsidrinka 20:56, 15 February 2006 (UTC)
Let me just say, I have no agenda in saying whether the Qur'an is or is not required reading. The only sources I see show that it is. The newspaper article, which seems to be down at the moment (I have provided a cached version on this talk page), and two journals, which so far no one has questioned. The only questionable issues are the authors of the two pieces. Nonetheless, this is not some agenda I want to push. I found it while researching so I added it. Pepsidrinka 20:58, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

You can translate Danish from English using

http://www.tranexp.com:2000/InterTran

It's not good translation but does give some idea about is being said. There is stuff about other religions like Buddhism and Hinduism too

In any case, the claim makes no sense at all. Denmark is a secular country. Muslim population is a tiny minority (3%). Why would the Quran be required reading in schools? Just some critical thinking and the ability to be skeptical is needed to immediately see that the claim by Spencer is completely bogus. Parts of the Quran (and other religious texts) are required reading in a religion class (an optional class). 72.129.170.249 21:49, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

Your link doesn't work. Furthermore, your arugment violates WP:NOR. You can't say that it doesn't make sense or isn't rational. If you can find a verifiable source, than that will suffice. Until then, your argument doesn't hold. Pepsidrinka 22:05, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

The link sure works for me. In any case, we have used a lot of Danish sources in the cartoon article. Want me to start deleting those sources (following your logic?)

Here is part from the site (using web translation -- the link that I gave)

"That that vigorous developmentå from lreplanensæ part 2.2 Kernestof, is there på B- level demands about, that the pupils examinationå kristendommen, islam and either hinduismen or buddhismen"

In other words, (in a religion class) students are required to study Christianity and Islam and (either Hinduism and Buddhism).

Since Islam is required, (unlike Buddhism and Hinduism where you have a choice to choose one) Spencer probably used that to further his phobia thesis in articles.

More from the site on what is required in religious class

  • kristendommen noted to globally perspective, notably to its europiskeæ and danish fremtrdenæ; to the employment clamp-downå documents from That Old and That New Testament, documents from kristendommens business and contemporary documents
  • islam noted to globally perspective amid suspension from its europiskeæ and danish context; to the employment clamp-downå documents from Koranen and contemporary documents
  • buddhisme or hinduisme, below here documents from that parent and from present
  • religionernes central processor fnomeneræ and religionsfaglig terminology and method
  • religionsvidenskabelig theory
  • hovedværkslæsning: a lngereæ document from religionø or religionsfaglig mark

That should be clear enough on what is required reading in the religion class (which is an optional class). It's not just quran .. but also Bible (OT, NT) and either Hinduism and Buddhism. 72.129.170.249 22:10, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

The above paragraph after you said "More from the site..." is so filled with non-English characters that I have no idea what it says. Pepsidrinka 22:19, 15 February 2006 (UTC)
http://www.tranexp.com:2000/InterTran
kristendommen == Christianity -- hinduisme == Hinduism
The main points are clear enough to me. Christianity, Islam and
Hinduism or Busshism are required in the religion class. parts
of the OT, NT, and the Quran are required reading. It's pretty
clear. 72.129.170.249 22:28, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

I stand corrected regarding the foreign citations. I guess you can use them to verify claims. I shall defer until I find a more "reputable" source (if one exists) proving the so-called "claim". However, just to comment on your last point, saying its "clear enough to [[you]]> isn't saying much when evidently you could read the original site and so this translation does not do much but to attempt to prove to me, or any other English speaker. Nevertheless, I am not going to start an edit war, or if one has started, I am not going to continue it until more, if any, sources are found. Pepsidrinka 22:43, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

Well I'm not trying to sniff out a fight, just that I'm a native dane, and well it's exceedingly clear to me, that's it's not required. But I understand your POV though. This is indeed the english part of Wikipedia, but nevertheless I'm not going to let it through, when I can read the law which tells me otherwise. Hope you understand my POV. Let's just hope one of us finds an english source then :).83.88.250.66 00:02, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

Well ... it wil be a bit difficult finding danish law texts in english. I can assure you that "islam set i globalt perspektiv under inddragelse af dens europæiske og danske kontekst; i arbejdet indgår tekster fra Koranen samt nutidige tekster " does mean "Islam seen in a global perspective with the inclusion of Islams european and danish context. In the process will texts from the Qu'ran as well as texts from today, be used". Texts of the Qu'ran is part of the pensa, and therefore required reading for upper-secondary students of Denmark. And it is required for the C level [2] of religion and for taking the exam at the moment. The rest of the law states that it is important for the pupils to get aqquainted with Islam and it is specified which part of the Qu'ran could be used (Hadith). To be able to "redegøre for væsentlige sider af yderligere to verdensreligioner, hvoraf den ene skal være islam" (explain important parts of two more world religions, in which one of them has to be Islam) is one of the main goals of the education in religion --87.72.52.192 12:56, 19 February 2006 (UTC)

Actually ... wouldnt it be a bit weird if one could avoid reading part of the qu'ran at any level of education in religion, Islam being one of the three major religions of the western world? 87.72.52.192 13:31, 19 February 2006 (UTC)

If I may jump in there, I've got a few comments to this discussion. Everything that's been said so far is based on the assumption that an upper-secondary education is one provided by the Danish gymnasium (this education is commonly abbreviated STX). Which is wrong; the cached DR article I saw earlier in this discussion was correctly translated, yet misleading or written with an incomplete knowledge of the Danish educational system. Upper-secondary education is also offered, for instance, as HHX or HTX (same levels but commercially or technically oriented, respectively). Neither of these has religion as a mandatory course. In short, HHX and HTX are upper-secondary educational lines which only provide access to vocationally relevant courses. STX students may or may not be required to read the quran, but this in itself does not mean that all upper-secondary school graduates even heard the word "Quran" whilst in school. For info, have a look at: http://eng.uvm.dk/publications/factsheets/fact4.htm?menuid=1520 Btw Pepsidrinka, I think you asked at some point, the uvm.dk addresses belong to the Danish ministry of education and are, as such, current and undisputed fact. Unfortunatly, not all of the information on the website is available in an English translation. TerminusEst 13:16, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

I have removed said statement from the article. TerminusEst 11:03, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] 92 per cent are Christian?

I'd be willing to bet that it is nothing like 92 per cent, because there would be a considerable percentage of people who are atheists, agnostics, undecided what they believe, etc. The 92 per cent figure must surely be a figure of people who are in some sense nominal Christians, or deemed to be Christians. Is there a way to find and source a more accurate figure? Metamagician3000 11:08, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

2005: 83,5 % of the danish population was members of "Folkekirken" the christian church. [3]. In 1990 the percentage was 89,3 [4] EyesAllMine 23:16, 26 February 2006 (UTC)
Okay, thanks. So we have a current figure of 83.5 per cent ... and even that seems like a nominal figure based on membership in the church, rather than a figure based on a census or poll of actual beliefs. The article should reflect that fact in some way. Metamagician3000 00:29, 27 February 2006 (UTC)
It is rather ordinary for people to be members of "Folkekirken" without being particulary religious, since "membership fee" will be drawn automatically over the tax if you don't actively reject your membership. For instance, I am a member of the Folkekirken myself, and I am a convinced atheist.
From a poll done by Kristeligt Dagblad (a Danish newspaper) the 15th of June 2000, people were asked the question "Do you consider yourself religious or religiously seeking?", and 43% answered yes, 53% answered no. So, all self-acclaimed religious people are less than half of the people in the country.
From the Gallup millenium poll in 1999, you get that only 10% of the Danish population goes to church every month. I'll translate a few passages from that poll ([5]): 16% believe in a personal God, while 51% believe in some sort of higher entity (like a soul or a life power). 15% can be called specifically atheist, while 16% can be called agnosticist. 49% pray, meditate or something similar from time to time. 10% believe that there is one, and only one, true religion, while 67% believe that there are truths in more than one religion. Furthermore, Danes are generally in the low end of the world when it comes to the importance of religion. The graphs from that examination can be seen here: [6]. --Jakob mark 01:41, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
The 92% needs to be sourced, and that sentence needs to reflect that they are not actively Christian, but merely members of a church. I would be in favor of moving that sentence altogether, since it misreflects the religious beliefs of Danes. (The polls generally place Denmark as a low scorer on general belief).--Jakob mark 02:04, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
You are absolutely right. I have just changed the info in the article, based on a Eurobarometer servey. Alfons Åberg 13:41, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Conflict

The Danish Queens' statement about that "We have to show our opposition to Islam" is not right. Several Danish newpapers have informed that it was the British newspaper,The Daily Telegraph, who had translated the word "opposition" wrong. The right word in the Queens book was the Danish word "modspil" which mean counter-balance. Kasper Holl 15:22, 5 March 2006 (CEST)

Changed anti-muslim to anti-immigration in the description of the policy of the ruling coalition. Even though the laws have been criticized as being anti-muslim, members of the ruling coalition have denied this, and no Danish law would be allowed to specifically target out muslims. So, not NPOV. It could be argued that the entire section on immigration policies should be moved. Also changed the sentence "Violent protest caused by..." to something closer to the original intention. The word "by" had been inserted later, to make an entirely different, and incorrect, meaning. --Ntwo 20:37, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Denmarks good history with religious minorities

The article should mention that Denmark was the only European nation to save the vast majority of its Jewish population during WWII, as virtually the entire population collaborated to smuggle them out of the country in an extremely short period of time. This is perhaps the single greatest altruistic act of one population towards another in the history of the world, and it speaks volumes for the Danish culture. JeffBurdges 20:17, 2 April 2006 (UTC)

See Rescue of the Danish Jews

I have to disagree with you here. There is a great deal of Danish national mythology involved in the remembrance of the rescue of the Jews. Note the following excerpt from the article you linked to:
"On 28 September 1943, Georg Ferdinand Duckwitz, a German diplomat, after secretly making sure Sweden would receive Jewish refugees, leaked word of the plans for the operation against Denmark's Jews to Hans Hedtoft, chairman of the Danish Social Democratic Party. Hedtoft, in turn contacted the Danish Resistance Movement and the Jewish community, whose head was C.B. Henriques and whose acting chief rabbi was Dr. Marcus Melchior. At the Rosh Hashanah services on 29 September, Danish Jews were warned of the German action and advised to go into hiding. [...] Some of the fishermen assisting in the rescue charged money to transport Jews to Sweden, while others took payments only from those who could afford passage. Some profiteers took advantage of the confusion and fear during the early days of the escape, but as time passed, the Danish underground movement ousted them and took an active role in organizing the rescue and providing financing, mostly from wealthy Danes who donated large sums of money for the rescue.".
Danish does not equate hero, and German does not equate murderer. Indeed, in some instances the roles were switched. So let's stay away from promoting post 1945 selective remembrance. Alfons Åberg 12:47, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] "Islamophobia"

The articles claim that there is rising "islamophobia" in Denmark is not neutral and it isn't even supported by a single referenced that we can attribute the claim to. Until a source is provided I belive the claim should be removed. Another thing is that for the recond, I am the anonymous user that reverted Irishpunktoms revert. It happend because didn't notice that I wasn't logged in. -- Karl Meier 18:20, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

It claims folks believe there is a rise, its about opinions and perspectives. --Irishpunktom\talk 10:05, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
Again. Do you have a source that make that claim? -- Karl Meier 16:46, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] 2 - 5 per cent are Muslims?

I am not saying that this claim (2 - 5 per cent are Muslims) is wrong. It just (de facto) isn't sourced, so i tagged it "citation needed". There were two sources until I removed them - the CIA World Factbook and the United States State Department. However, the CIA World Factbook is in itself unsourced, and it also claims that 98 per cent of the population are Christians, which is most definitely wrong (According to a Eurobarometer survey only 31% of the population reply in the affirmative when asked whether they believe in God). The other source is just a mirror of the initial source (one piece of info does not become more reliable just by duplicating it). Alfons Åberg 14:06, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

"2-5" per cent is a wide range. Isn't there a more precise statistic? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.196.243.15 (talk) 20:01, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
No, that's the problem. Denmark doesn't have official statistics on this sort of stuff, at least not to my knowledge. ko268 March 25, 2008, 1:27 —Preceding comment was added at 05:27, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Islamic party wants to take over Denmark

Click here: http://damp.mono.net/ —Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.196.243.15 (talk) 20:17, 22 January 2008 (UTC)