User talk:Ish ishwar/2006talkpage

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2006 archived talk page (jan-jul)

[edit] Indigenous North America Newsletter - Jul '06

The Indigenous Peoples of North America Portal The Indigenous Peoples of North America Portal has been established, as a starting point for those wishing to learn more about the subject, with information and links on a wide variety of issues. It also contains news regarding the continent's various tribes and nations. It's a graphically pleasing site, and everyone is encouraged to check it out. Home Page Reorganization The project's home page has a new design, featuring tabbed subpages on participants, templates, articles, categories, and the to do list. Article Classification Move The Article Classification lists have been moved to their own subpage due to size. This is a sign of progress in the ongoing work of this project. New Talk Page Template The project's talk page template has been updated, along with the classification system, to include the assessment on the talk pages of the articles that have been classified and assessed.

Balance As the Project reachs its first six months of activity, the great effort all of you have invested in it has turned the vast information available on Indigenous North American topics from a deorganized cumulous into an excellent and easy to consult database. Although much work is still in order, few WikiProjects are able to obtain the amazing results we are proud to show today. To all of you, thank you and congratulations! What You Can Do to Help The assessment of articles within the scope of the project is still an ongoing process. We need people to help in this who are not contributors to the articles they are assessing. Also, there is the ongoing need for identifying and cataloguing articles that fall within the scope of this project. As of today, nearly 1,500 have been identified within the Project's scope. Signed by Aaron Walden & Phaedriel - 15:50, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] A Few Words on Croatian /nekoliko riječi na hrvatskom/

• Language… jezik /pl. jezici/
• Language family… jezična porodica
• To talk… govoriti
• Tribe… pleme /pl. plemena/
• Word… riječ /pl. riječi/
• A few… nekoliko
• Book… knjiga
• Athapaskans… Atapaski
• Apaches… Apači
• man…čovjek
• woman… žena

—Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.172.170.22 (talk • contribs)

hi. thank you for the words – ishwar  (speak) 19:11, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

Thank you for the Map of Athapaskan languages. Z

[edit] About IPA references

Awhile ago, you added a large amount of references to International Phonetic Alphabet. Could you perhaps tell me where these sources can be cited in the text? We're trying to bring the article up to featured article status but we need to cite the sources within the article. Thanks.--The ikiroid (talk·desk·Advise me) 19:44, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

hi. These explain the history of the IPA including the notational systems the preceded the IPA: Sweet (1880-1881), Sweet (1971), Passy (1888), Kelly (1981), Kemp (1994), Ellis (1869-1889), Albright (1958), Hultzen, Lee (1958). Ladefoged & Halle (1988), IPA (1989), Ladefoged (1990) discuss issues related to the most recent major revision of the IPA. The text does not state anything about the IPA's history, so you could move these to History of the IPA (which is a rather incomplete).

MacMahon (1996) is a general article on phonetic notation which briefly discusses the IPA. MacMahon (1996) is already cited in the text.

IPA (1999) is just the manual for how to use the IPA. IPA (1999) should remain there, of course, since it is the IPA's manual. As for citing the manual, the whole article references the manual. It probably doesnt need to be cited specifically, but if you insist on doing so, you could just mention in the intro (or wherever appropriate) that the IPA manual is IPA (1999).

Wells (1987) is the article that explains the IPA computer codes. I havent read this & I never bothered to figure out what the codes are actually good for. Some of this is in the handbook. Maybe its pre-Unicode ideas (?). The article doesnt mention them, so maybe you can take this out.

Pullum & Laduslaw (1986) is a reference for the values (& a little history) of symbols. As not all linguists like or use the IPA, it is convenient for cross-notational comparison. I also put a reference to a review of it, which is interesting to me but maybe overkill for others.

Ball et al. (1995) is an extention to the IPA called VoQS (Voice Quality Symbols) created by speech pathologists (for transcribing speech disorders). This includes things like diplophonia, ventricular phonation, protruded jaw voice, etc. It also has its own chart. I'm not clear why the IPA website does not mention it. Wikipedia lacks any information on this. I think it should be added as the article only indicates the use of the IPA as a tool for linguists and language teachers/learners, not mentioning the use by speech clinicians.

Duckworth et al. (1990) is the beginning of the extIPA.

Jespersen (1889) can be removed as this is now in Phonetic transcription (he made an analphabetic notational system).

is this what you wanted to know? – ishwar  (speak) 19:32, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

Yes yes! This is wonderful! This made my day! Now I can cite it in the text! Thank you thank you thank you! I'm copying your answer to the IPA talkpage so everyone can work on citing the article. Thanks again. With this, we have a chance of bringing this article to featured status. The ikiroid (talk·desk·Advise me) 22:09, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Vietnamese IPA

Hi Ish ishwar,

I am an administrator at Vietnamese Wiktionary, I am creating a template which takes a Vietnamese word as input and gives IPA pronunciation as output. Basically the template will break a word into (C1)(w)V(G)(C2)+T as in Vietnamese phonology. I have finished with 3 auxilliaries templates [1], [2], [3]. I am a native Vietnamese speaker but I have no knowledge of Vietnamese phonology. Therefore I would like to ask for your cooperation in this project, to finish the other template relating to (w)V(G). For example, if you could check out already the code of 3 templates for C1, C2, T (in the given links) to see if I have missed out something from reading your article, feel free to discuss and that would be very helpful. I also have a question about the pronunciation at Thich Nhat Hanh, why "Hạnh" have the "ʲ" and the tone is 3ʔ1 instead of 31 or 32?

Thank you very much in advance for your contact!

Best wishes, Tttrung 17:09, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

I have just completed the template here. Your comment is highly appreciated. :) 193.52.24.125 09:07, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

hi.

hmm, you are going to make me do some work, i see. i will have to look this up as I forget many things about Vietnamese. About tone, they are complex and i have read conflicting descriptions of them. So, as i am not a specialist, i am currently not sure about them. As to why 3ʔ1 instead of 31, the ʔ is there because it represents a glottalized vocal quality which is present in many Vietnamese speakers. If you arent aware, Vietnamese tones are not simply changes in pitch (as they are many Chinese languages) — they are changes in pitch in addition to specific vocal quality (such as a breathy or creaky voice). However, here is where i have read different descriptions of this in acoustic studies — there seems to be differences in regional dialects. Why 31 instead of 32? I dont remember & will have to look this up. The "ʲ" is there because (if i remember correctly) some dialects have a diphthong there because of the following nh consonant.

Question: why do you include a pronunciation of only one dialect?

peace – ishwar  (speak) 16:24, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the answers.

I will add ʔ to the tonal mark if a rule is found and no one disagrees. In Vietnamese language, the tonal marks have subscriptions instead of superscriptions, but that may be minor problem in convention. By the way, could you confirm that "iệ" (in Việt of Vietnamese language) has IPA ḭɜ instead of iɜ̰?

Including more dialects will eventually be the goal. For starting, I just want to do nice job on one dialect that I know best. So far many bugs have been fixed. When the template is stable, I can repeat the job for dialect of HCM city. I also want to add standard Vietnamese voice (I think this exists but I may be wrong), but I don't have yet good references. Tttrung 17:24, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

hi.

I have mostly seen superscripts in general linguistic literature, but I dont read much literature on languages in Southeast Asia or in Africa or other places. (In the Athabascan family, there are usually just 2 tones high or low, so we dont need to worry about complicated tone notation. So, I cant comment that convention for Vietnamese. I'll take a look at my Vietnamese library & see what they write.

If you are writing that tone with sub/superscript number 3ʔ1 or 3ʔ2 (I still havent had the time to look this up yet), then you should also mark [iɜ] similarly as in [iɜ_3ʔ1] or [iɜ^3ʔ1] because they are the same tone. The tilde under the vowel represents creaky voice phonation (that is, a glottalized vowel). The [ʔ] in the sub/super-script number is a glottal stop which also represents glottalization of the vowel. Since the glottalization is actually part of tone in Vietnamese, I would think that it is preferable to mark them together in the sub/super-script. From a pedagogical perspective, I dont that think either notation is superior because I doubt that many readers know what creaky voice or a glottalized vowel is anyway — they will have to read more to learn what these are. What do you think?

– ishwar  (speak) 04:50, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Eurocentricity?

Hi, I was looking at the article for the City of San Leandro and noticed a pretty bad (imho) Eurocentric bias. No mention whatsoever of the people who lived there before it was "discovered" by a Spanish soldier in 1772. I put a comment about that on the Talk:San_Leandro,_California page but was unsatisfied, so I started looking at the wikipedia style pages. Still unsatisfied (it does not seem to be addressed at all there!) I looked at the History of California page and found your comments there. I'm wriiting to ask if you have had discussions with other wiki-ers or if there is a forum for discussion of mitigation of eurocentrism.

thanks, Tzf 19:15, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

hi.

i havent really discussed this with others. But, if you dont know of it, there is a project Wikipedia:WikiProject Countering systemic bias that attempts to address these issues. Could this what you are looking for? peace – ishwar  (speak) 16:05, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Empty articles

Please don't create lots of empty articles it makes for quite a bit of work deleting them. It would be much better to create one or two stubs that wern't going to get deleted. Thanks. CambridgeBayWeather (Talk) 01:10, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

ok. if those are the rules, i wont do that. i agree, but there are thousands of stubs that need to created & its easier to just add them to the project category. oh well. peace – ishwar  (speak) 07:24, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Fair use rationale for Image:Harry Hoijer.jpg

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[edit] language family map

please check the map

I inserted on the article. Dreg743 21:33, 2 June 2006 (UTC) Tried to make it "representative" of various families. Languages on the map are at large taken from the controversial article "list of languages by native speakers", and I tried to locate them where they are spoken.

[edit] DYK

On June 9, Did you know? was updated with a fact from the article Filippo Salvatore Gilij, which you created. If you know of another interesting fact from a recently created article, then please suggest it on the "Did you know?" talk page.

--Cactus.man ✍ 18:31, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Red Cloud

Hi ishwar,

Do you know what the correct spelling of Red Cloud's name in Lakota would be? Thanks. —Khoikhoi 22:23, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

hi. I'm sorry – no, I dont know Lakota (or any other Siouan for that matter).

I guess I would suggest looking him up in the Smithsonian's Handbook of North American Indians. Hmm, doesnt Lakota have different spelling systems used by different people (?). I cant remember.... Maybe you could try to email a contact person from a tribal website (they may want to add some other stuff to the article)?

You could also send SSILA an email. Sometimes people ask questions like this which are forwarded to a given lang family's specialists.

Happy hunting – ishwar  (speak) 05:45, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

Ok, thanks for the advice! —Khoikhoi 05:49, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Oowekyala vs Heiltsuk vs Kwak'wala

Saw your edit. I was only going by what's already in Wikipedia, i.e. pre-existing Oowekyala article and a separate Kwak'wala article; from what I could see up-to-the-latest-postmodernism linguists had established and separated these two, and I was already aware of the problem with calling Kwak'wala by the name "Southern Kwakiutl", which happens to also be how the Cape Mudge Band (the Weywakay of the Laich-kwil-tach) style themselves as separate from the other Kwakiutl, the other Kwakiutl being the Kwakaw-ka'wakw (or however it's spelled) and the Kwagyuilh; and not including the so-called "Northern Kwakiutl" who are the Oowekyala speakers (Heiltsuk, Owekeeno et al). Language politics are VERY confusing in BC, and also very sensitive; so I went with the existing delineations and wouldn't dream of going by an externally-defined definition (e.g. ethnologue or sil.org, for example) rather than one "indigenous" to the area; i.e. how the people themselves want it represented; which is why I used Laich-kwil-tach for that one group, instead of the more historically familiar anglicizations Euclataws or Yucultas. Gets nasty when the "traditional" orthography differs from the "linguistically-approved" orthography; e.g. Stl'at'imx vs St'at'imc, the latter being the Latin set used for St'at'imcets and how they like to see it in English now; problem is t' doesn't mean "tl" in the English phonological landscape; but oh no, they want to see THEIR spelling (i.e. the St'at'imcets spelling) in lieu of anything anyone else can also sort out. That different latinization methods are used for neighbouting languages e.g. St'at'imcets vs Nlaka'pamux vs Secwepemc. vs Halkomeylem makes it all the worse.....not that this has to do with Oowekyala/Kwak'wala except by way of caveat, i.e. treading on local toes.....Skookum1 10:12, 6 May 2006 (UTC)

PS I think it was a Heiltsuk community who rescued passengers and crew of the Queen of Prince Rupert recently; or maybe they were Haisla/Tsimshianic I can't quite remember nowSkookum1 10:12, 6 May 2006 (UTC)

Postscript: I see from the indigenous peoples project page it was Oowekyala vs Heiltsuk you were talking about; same comments apply, more or less: if the Owekeeno and Heiltsuk want to distinguish themselves linguistically, i.e. as separate languages, then it follows that it's wisest for Wikipedia to do the same thing. The issue for me at this point is what to do about other cases like this, e.g Halkemeylem's subdialects aren't broken down to separate articles; but Nitinaht, Nuu-chah-nulth and Makah are all separate articles; I don't know the linguistics technicalities but my impression is that the "Aht" languages (Nitinaht, Nuu-chah-nulth and Makah and, I think, one other I can't recall the name of at present) are pretty much in the same ballpark the way that the various Halkemeylem subdialects/sublanguages are; similarly Shishalh and Squamish are pretty similar, and both are similar to Halkemeylem. Essentially there's a lot of articles extant for splinter languages/dialects and other articles at the same "tier" of the language hierarchy that DON'T have articles done yet; quite the web (see Salishan languages).Skookum1 21:40, 6 May 2006 (UTC)

hi.

re: Oowekyala lang

Yes, I think that Oowekyala and Heiltsuk could be separated because of the political distinctiveness of the two groups and because of the structural differences present between the two languages. Heiltsuk has been worked on more than Oowekyala, & it seems to me that Oowekyala has been assumed to be similar enough to Heiltsuk, but perhaps this hasnt been looked at with a lot of attention (at least until Darin Howe's 2000 dissertation).

re: Halkomelem/Halkemeylem, Sechelt/Shishalh, Squamish langs

It is my understanding that the Halkomelem (Halkemeylem) dialects are very similar, while the differences between the Halkomelem dialect continuum, the Sechelt (Shishalh) language, and the Squamish language are greater. And I have seen where Squamish is considered more similar to Halkomelem and Nooksack (together in a South Georgia sub-branch) and where Sechelt is more similar to Comox and Pentlatch (in a North Georgia branch). These South Georgia and North Georgia sub-groupings are found in Marianna Mithun's book, but Czaykowska-Higgins & Kinkade (1997) do have these sub-groupings (and this is what I followed for the Wikipedia article).

re: Nitinaht, Nuu-chah-nulth, Makah

I dont know much about Wakashan, so I dont know how similar these all are. Mithun classifies them as separate languages, so I would recommend following this in Wikipedia. I'll give you a quote from Mithun (p. 549):

The Northern and Southern branches of the family [ishwar: i.e. Wakashan] are quite distantly related, but languages within each branch are close. Nitinaht and Makah have generally been considered closer to each other than either is to Nootka, with an estimated separation of 1000 years, although Embleton 1985 found greater similarity between Nootka and Nitinaht, which are adjacent.

For more on Oowekyala, below is from Howe's dissertation Oowekyala Segmental Phonology (pp. 11-13), which is essentially most of what I know about Oowekyala:

1.1.2. Adjacent languages

1.1.2.1. Adjacent unrelated languages

As mentioned in the previous section, Oowekeeno territory is geographically adjacent to that of the Nuxalk, a Salishan people (Bella Coola is about 30 miles northeast of Rivers Inlet). The Oowekeeno and Nuxalk use English to communicate together (the Nuxalk language, a.k.a. Bella Coola, is virtually as endangered as Oowekyala is; Dr. Ross Saunders, lecture notes 1998). However, according to Mrs. Hilda Smith, her people used Chinook Jargon as a lingua franca in their dealings with the Nuxalk, given the complete lack of mutual intelligibility of their languages. As an example, Mrs. Hilda Smith recalls that her late mother Maggie Bernard could speak some Chinook Jargon but no English. Stevenson (1982:27) calls into question the Oowekeeno’s supposed knowledge of Chinook Jargon and claims instead that the Nuxalk and Bella Coola simply knew each other’s languages: the Oowekeeno at the top of Owikeno Lake had regular contact with the Nuxalk of South Bentick Arm, and intermarriage between the two tribes was not infrequent (McIlwraith 1948). A dramatic story by Willy Gladstone (Heiltsuk) in Boas (1928:132-5) might be taken as evidence in favour of Stevenson’s claim. According to the narrator, a vengeful Heiltsuk delegation once visited Chief Walkus of the Oowekeeno in the evening. One of the Heiltsuk pointed at several Oowekeeno, saying “All are about to die!” in Chinook Jargon. The Oowekeeno, who did not understand, asked what he had said, and the Heiltsuk replied “You will have plenty to eat, is what I said.” The next morning, several unsuspecting Oowekeeno were killed by the Heiltsuk. Crucially, in a footnote to this story, it is explained that “Chinook Jargon ... at that time [of war between the Oowekeeno and the Heiltsuk] was understood by the Bella Bella [Heiltsuk] but not by the Rivers Inlet people [Oowekeeno]” (ibid.:133, fn. 1).

There is another, perhaps more solid, piece of evidence that the Oowekeeno and Nuxalk had extensive and direct linguistic contact. The extremely rare consonant clustering property for which Nuxalk is notorious (see e.g. Nater 1984, Bagemihl 1991) is also found in Oowekyala, e.g. c’k’x̌tƛkc ‘the invisible one here-with-me will be short’.

1.1.2.2. Closely-related languages

According to Lincoln & Rath (1980), Oowekyala is one of four closely-related North Wakashan (previously known as Kwakiutlan) languages, all spoken in the same western coastal area of British Columbia. The others are Heiltsuk, Haisla, and Kwakwala (formerly Kwakiutl). The linguistic division between Kwakwala and Oowekyala is undisputed. Even Boas, who has been criticised by Hilton & Rath (1980) and Stevenson (1982) for treating all North Wakashan languages as dialects of one language, acknowledges the reality of this division in the introduction to his Kwakiutl Grammar (1947:205):

North of the Kwakiutl area, beginning at Rivers Inlet another dialect of the language is spoken which differs considerably from the Kwakiutl here discussed. The languages are not easily mutually intelligible, partly on account of differences in vocabulary, partly on account of differences in grammatical forms.

The relation between Haisla and Oowekyala is somewhat more controversial. Lincoln and Rath (1980:2) claim that Haisla is not mutually intelligible with either Oowekyala or Heiltsuk (the latter are mutually intelligible) and they warn that “A great deal of intermarriage takes place within this northern area and the tendency is to minimize the very real differences which exist between Haisla and Heiltsuk-Oowekyala” (ibid.:4). The claim that Haisla and Heiltsuk-Oowekyala are mutually unintelligible is abandoned, however, in the introduction to their Haisla dictionary (Lincoln & Rath 1986). Mrs. Hilda Smith tells me that she is able to converse in “Indian” with her son-in-law from Kitimat (Haisla territory). Significantly, the Haisla are assumed to have originated from the Rivers Inlet area according to the Oowekeeno version of the Great Flood story. Legend has it that several canoes were carried away to the Kitimat area by the strong current. Bach (p.c.) notes, however, that a comparison between Henaksiala and Haisla origin and flood stories remains to be done. Moreover, Bach notes that Haisla shares some traits with Kwakwala not evident in Heiltsuk-Oowekyala, e.g. unrounding before u.

Finally, John Rath, who had prolonged experience working on both Heiltsuk and Oowekyala (Lincoln & Rath 1980; Rath 1981; Hilton & Rath 1982), proposes a linguistic division between these two languages which has generally been rejected by linguists. Oowekyala is not listed separately from Heiltsuk by Jabobsen (1979), nor by Bach (1995:5). As McMillan (1999:10) writes, “the Oweekeno of Rivers Inlet speak a distinct dialect but are usually included [in Heiltsuk]”. It is also noteworthy that in Lincoln & Rath (1980), roots from Oowekyala and Heiltsuk are combined in a single column, while Haisla roots and Kwakwala roots are listed in separate columns. As Lincoln & Rath (1980:4) explain, “since the Heiltsuk and Oowekyala languages had essentially the same roots, they could justifiably be combined in a single column.” Moreover, in Hilton & Rath (1982:33), we are told:

For readers interested in checking the translation [of the Oowekyala texts] in more detail, the Heiltsuk vocabulary and syntax in Rath 1981 can be helpful because of the high degree of regular correspondence and mutual intelligibility of Oowekyala and Heiltsuk. ... Mindful of pronunciation and hence spelling difference between Oowekyala and Heiltsuk, one can find a listing of some of the pertinent morphemes in Rath (1981:70-73).

Nonetheless, there are two a priori reasons for linguists not to collapse Oowekyala and Heiltsuk into a single language. First, Oowekyala is definitely viewed by the speakers as a distinct language. “From the perspective of the Oowekeeno people themselves, the Kwakiutl are a Kwakwala speaking Indian subdivision with which they no more identify than with their Bella Bella [Heiltsuk] or Bella Coola [Nuxalk Salishan] neighbours” (Hilton & Rath 1982:7). (Significantly perhaps, according to historical accounts in Boas (1928:124-135), the Oowekeeno and Heiltsuk were frequently at war with each other.) Apparently, the Heiltsuk feel the same way about Oowekyala. Thus, according to Stevenson (1982:3-4) “the term Heiltsuk can be rendered literally into English as ‘those who speak correctly’. This term emphasizes their differences with their Oowekeeno neighbours”. Second, from a linguistic perspective Lincoln & Rath (1980:2) state “Although the [North Wakashan] languages are undoubtedly very similar phonologically and, as is attested in the present work, in root structure, they are much less similar in their inventories of suffixes, in morphophonology, and in syntax.” Lincoln and Rath do not identify these dissimilarities, but it is relatively easy to find even phonological differences between Oowekyala and Heiltsuk.

For example, Heiltsuk has tone (k’ʷás ‘mussels’ versus k’ʷàs ‘sit outside’), Oowekyala doesn’t (Kortlandt 1975); Oowekyala has contrastive vowel and resonant length (y’ak’ ‘bad’ vs. t’aːx ‘gun powder’; ƛ’mq’ ‘yew tree’ vs. smːs ‘mouth’), Heiltsuk doesn’t; Oowekyala allows glottalization in syllable-final position (łl’ ‘dead’) whereas Heiltsuk doesn’t; and the extensive consonant clustering characteristic of both languages is broken in Heiltsuk by epenthetic schwas after glottalized stops and affricates, but not in Oowekyala (He t’əxt’ək’ʷəs vs. Oo t’xt’k’ʷs ‘fish hawk’; Lincoln & Rath 1980:31). There are also numerous idiosyncratic segmental differences between Oowekyala and Heiltsuk. There are differences in voicing, e.g. Oo ki’skc’a vs. He giskc’a ‘an unidentified edible shellfish’; Oo cuq’ʷqəla vs. He ʣúq’ʷəqəlá ‘sleet’; Oo taqila ‘to make an oolichan net’ vs. He dáqał ‘an oolichan net’. There are differences in continuancy, e.g. Oo łinəma vs. He ƛ’ínəmá ‘to take back lent out property’; Oo kʷuta vs. He xʷuta ‘to suspect, guess’; Oo kʷumitəla vs. He xʷúmítəla ‘to rock, to seesaw’. There are differences in place of articulation: Oo ǧʷəl’ik vs. He ǧʷəl’iq ‘spruce pitch’; Oo bgʷ- (e.g. plural bipgʷanm) vs. He dkʷ- (e.g. plural dítgʷánḿ) ‘humans, men, people’. There are differences between the presence vs. absence of vowels, e.g. Oo ǧiǧis vs. He qqs ‘eye’; Oo n’ixn’ika vs. He n’əxn’əká ‘to say repeatedly’, as well as between the presence vs. absence of consonants, e.g. Oo c’łtxa vs. He c’łxʔit ‘to squirt (clam)’; Oo k’əyus vs. He k’ús ‘not the case, nonexistent’. There are differences in segment order (metathesis), e.g. Oo ti’xsala ~ ti’xsəla vs. He tisxálá ~ tisxəlá ‘splashing’.

Lastly, it should be acknowledged more generally that linguistic comparison of Oowekyala with Kwakwala, Haisla or Heiltsuk is premature as there are poorly understood dialectal distinctions within Kwakwala, Haisla and Heiltsuk themselves. This is especially true of Kwakwala, which subsumes several dialects, including ǧuc’ala (Quatsino Sound Tribes), kwak’wala (Gilford Island, Knight Inlet, Kwakiutl and Nimpkish), lik’ʷla (Lekwiltok Tribes), n’ak’ʷala (Northern Tribes), ƛ’aƛ’asik’ʷala (Nahwitti Tribes). Only the first of these is well-documented (e.g. Boas 1947). Haisla is also used as a cover term for two divergent dialects: Henaksiala (Lincoln & Rath 1986) and Haisla proper (Bach 1999). Bach (1995:5) lists these as two separate North Wakashan languages, alongside Heiltsuk and Kwakwala. Finally, Heiltsuk too has at least two divergent dialects, spoken in Bella Bella and Klemtu respectively. The differences between the various dialects in these languages clearly needs more detailed and extensive research before we are able to decide on their precise genetic relation with Oowekyala.

peace – ishwar  (speak) 23:26, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Vietnamese phonology

Hi, could you check the IPA pronunciation of "tiếng Việt" in the infobox for Vietnamese language? I added the Northern and Southern forms, but wasn't sure. Thanks. DHN 19:36, 29 April 2006 (UTC)

hi. Ok, i'll take a look maybe next week. peace – ishwar  (speak) 23:02, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] List of languages by number of native speakers

Hi Ish,

If you're not too busy, would you mind keeping an eye on this article? I'll be off the grid in about a week, and may not be back for a year. It's currently in half-way decent shape (as good as Ethnologue permits), but attracts numerous unreferenced edits. Mostly it's just a matter of reverting those, with occasional discussions about what to do when Ethnologue is wrong. However, there is the occasional (but usually mild) edit war, like the current one on French. kwami 01:50, 29 April 2006 (UTC)

hi. ok, but I am a bit busy these days. peace – ishwar  (speak) 22:59, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Request

Hi Ish,

My name is Fernanda Viégas and I have been studying Wikipedia for a while now (you can see a paper I published on the subject here). I would like to ask you a few questions about your activities as a Wikipedia image creator. I am fascinated by the pictorial side of Wikipedia and it would be great to hear about this community from one of its members. Would you be available to participate an email survey this week? Thanks, — Fernanda 03:24, 4 April 2006 (UTC) | talk

ok, just send me an email.

peace – ishwar  (speak) 17:51, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] How do Most Pronounce This?

Talk: Individualized Education Program: pronunciation?

how do most pronounce this?

like "eye-ee-pee"? or like "ee-ehp"? or like "yep"?

thanks – ishwar  (speak) 23:58, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

Just sound out the english letters: "Eye" for I (long I), "E" for E (long E), "Pee" for P (long P). I believe this was your first pronounciation choice.

jeannaf (talk · contribs) (10:33, 2006 April 3)

hi. got it. thank you. – ishwar  (speak) 17:35, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Two Greenlandics?

Hi, congratulations to your map being featured. I've noticed that all of Greenland has one color on it. A cousin of mine happens to work in Tasiilaq and I remember him telling me that the East-Greenlandic is quite different from the (main) West-Greenlandic. I even found a websource:

Greenlandic. 1st foreign language is Danish and 2nd is English. The language of East Greenland is Greenlandic, but it’s substantially different from that of West Greenland both in its pronunciation and its vocabulary. Approximately 3.500 people in the world speak East Greenlandic. For obvious reasons only a handful books has ever been published in East Greenlandic. In school the children of East Greenland have to learn West Greenlandic (which is the official language) Danish and English.

eastgreenland.com

Maybe this difference is too subtle for your classification. Thought you'd be interested. Michbich 21:20, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

hi. thanks.

yes, i was just showing language families and not individual languages (which would result in a very complicated map). So, since the two you mention are related to each other and in the same family, i just put them under the Eskimo-Aleut color.

peace – ishwar  (speak) 17:32, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Map question

Congrats on the featured picture. =) I was wondering if there was a particular software package you used to create the map, and further, if it was possible for you to provide the map in a vector format (Wikipedia supports SVG, for example)? Thanks for your time. =) —Locke Cole • t • c 08:51, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

hi. thank you.

that was the first map that i ever made. I explain a little about the map below: User talk:ish ishwar#Dates of maps in Mithun 1999 and Campbell 1997.

I used the GIMP program (Mac version); i should put mention this on the map, shouldnt i?.

According to the GIMP website, it is possible to convert to the .SVG format, but i dont know how to do this. Right the map is in the GIMP format (.XCF) from which I convert to .PNG. I am using several different layers, such one for labels, one for water, one for language boundaries, etc. If you know how to convert it, then that would be very helpful. I was going to upload my working file so that everyone can modify it as they saw fit. My ultimate plan is to donate the map to http://www.native-languages.org/ when the map is completed, with Wikipedia acting as a test. I have not uploaded the working file yet because i am not completely finished adjusting language borders. But, i dont know when i'll have time to work on it again, so maybe i should just do this anyway. Maybe it is better if it is converted to .SVG before i (or we) start fiddling with it again.

peace – ishwar  (speak) 17:24, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] PIE project

Hi, congratulations on your success. Glad my endorsement didn't do you any harm! Question, would you be interested in a bigger project on PIE? Go to Talk:List of Indo-European roots#Project proposal and if you are interested, stick your oar into the discussion going on there. As an administrator you would be well placed to advise in the early stages. --Doric Loon 10:55, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

Now at User:Doric Loon/PIE Roots project page. --Doric Loon 16:55, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

hi. thank you.

hmm. Well, i am not so well-versed in PIE (i do better in proto-Athabascan). I'm not sure how much help i could be. Right now I am busy, so I need to try & stay away from Wikipedia for a while. Thanks for the invitation, i'll took a look some time in the future.

peace – ishwar  (speak) 17:09, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Dates of maps in Mithun 1999 and Campbell 1997

Hi Ish. CJLippert has pointed out to me that the map of the Ojibwe language I made based on the ones in Mithun 1999 (and on the many maps you've made) doesn't represent the distribution of Ojibwe at the time of contact with Europeans. He tells me that it better represents the distribution some time in the 1800s (although apparently I didn't include Odawa and a few other communities). I looked at the maps in Campbell 1997, and he has more or less the same distribution for Ojibwe, and it's also supposedly the approximate distribution at the time of first contact with Europeans. Do you have any idea what time the maps actually show, or why they don't show the proper pre-contact distribution? Thanks. Take care, --Whimemsz 23:32, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

Image:Ojibwe Language Map.png

hi. i dont know much about Ojibwe, so i really would need to look this up. i would say that we should look at the Handbook of North American Indian, except being that the Northeast volume was published in 1978 this material may be a bit dated (and I wouldnt know what is out of date & what is not). but, we should probably look at that anyway since this handbook is so informative, generally speaking. the Languages volume, however, was published in 1996: the map contained therein is the best language map of the entire continent. the map was also republished in 1999 in a giant wall-sized version that states that it has been enlarged and corrected. i have both of these maps (and also Mithun 1999).

all of these maps are of different time periods in that the boundaries of eastern peoples are of an earlier date than the boundaries of western peoples. however, this is just a general statement: there are exceptions (e.g. the California peoples' boundaries are earlier than the Apachean peoples). all of this is contingent upon when a particular ethnic group was encountered by Europeans/Euro-Americans and how accurate the historical record is. i dont specifically know the time period for the boundaries of northeastern Algonquian groups. this information is usually on the culture area map that appears at the beginning of every volume, but since the Northeast volume is kind of old, i dont know how greatly this 1978 culture area map differs from the 1996/1999 language map. (& i havent bought this volume, so i need to go the library.)

my map is based in many ways on the Mithun 1999 map that appears at the beginning of the book (especially, in terms of the projection); however, i have modified the boundaries of many groups to follow the boundaries in the Goddard 1996/1999 map. Mithun's map is essentially the map of tribes that was created by Harold Driver et. al. first around 1950, reprinted throughout the 1950s & 1960s. i think (but i'm not sure) that Driver often used the watersheds of rivers, etc. to help him delineate the tribes. so, as you can guess, there has been a lot more research since then. thus, following the Goddard map is the way to go. (i started out with the Mithun map because it was in black & white, which i thought would simply things.)

i think that my map is so far more accurate than Mithun, but not as accurate as Goddard. but, i'm not finished with it, either. i still want to adjust some of the boundaries.

ok, about Ojibwe: i agree with user CJLippert. just a quick glance at Goddard's map shows these peoples were not that far west. if we can look at other maps we may find something even more detailed and/or accurate than Goddard. concerning my little map of the distribution of Algic/Algonquian, the area of the northeastern groups is pretty close to Goddard's. however, the northwestern boundary in Canada is one of the things that i want to adjust, but this concerns Plains Cree and Blackfoot (and not Ojibwe).

if you want to make a better map following Goddard, i have scanned sections of his map, which i could email you if want.

peace – ishwar  (speak) 03:21, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

oh, Campbell 1997, i forget what he uses. he sometimes follows the Handbook and other times follows William Bright's encyclopedia.

i think that people often will forgive you if you use older sources for maps of large areas, such as of entire language families. but, when it is of single ethnic group, they will expect more precision. – ishwar  (speak) 03:24, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

Okay, thank you so much for all the info. An email of the Goddard maps would be great! Campbell says his source is The International Encyclopedia of Linguistics. Thanks again! --Whimemsz 22:53, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] reply: CJLippert

Hmmm. It seems Whimemsz has left the Wiki. How shall we go about with the re-edited map? Before his departure, I have suggested a map with a diffusion effect with the core areas that is coloured and the more migratory areas being transparent fading to none once outside of the rang. Also, before a map could be made, a specific timeframe needs to be listed due to the westerly migration. On the other hand, for the Ojibwe language page and the Anishinaabe page, other Anishinaabeg ought to be included. I have a series of maps based purely on oral history with some areas verified in early missionary recordings, treaty negotiations, and personal accounts of fur traders, lumbermen, etc. The images are Image:Anish-1400.GIF, Image:Anish-1500.GIF, Image:Anish-1600.GIF, Image:Anish-1700.GIF, Image:Anish-1800.GIF, Image:Anish-1900.GIF and Image:Anish-2000.GIF, but they are very crude. Your suggestions on how to incorporate these map ideas but fitting them into serious anthropological research data maps would be helpful. CJLippert 00:55, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

hi. I am a bit busy right now & so I probably wont be spending much time with Wikipedia. (i had been spending too much time here anyway).

I think that your suggestion is good. You have made several maps of the different time periods. Could these be fitted into a single map or would this obscure the information? Basing them on oral histories is a very good idea. I would wonder how they compare to other maps created by (white) anthropologists/historians. It would be interesting to know where they differ. Do you know of others maps? (perhaps a map bibliography would be useful to other Algonquian internet surfers wanting to make future maps?)

I personally havent read anything (at all) about maps and map-making, and so I consider myself very amateur. All of the maps that I have made have been very static and with clearly defined delimited areas. This is probably not very accurate to the way that some groups "occupy" an area. Additionally, I am trained in linguistics and not anthropology. So, perhaps, you are better qualified than me? And, finally, I dont much about graphic design, either. Wikipedia led me to spend some of my free time learning how to use the GIMP program which I used to create my maps. I created my maps by scanning the (paper) sources, tracing the boundaries, and then modifying my tracings & filling in colors. – ishwar  (speak) 20:54, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

The crude map might work if the overlays were in different colours such that as we go forward in centuries, the colours shift in spectrum. I do make maps, but I am currently busy with making maps of mining project that can potentially impact northern Minnesota tribes/northwestern Onario First Nations, through air and water pollution. This might be something to re-visit later, which for me will not be until a small span in the summer and then then a longer span next winter. CJLippert 01:32, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] You've only just now become an admin?

I just read on the Wikipedia Signpost that you have just become an admin. Sorry I didn't vote; I didn't know about it (I very rarely look at RFA). I certainly would have voted for you if I had known. But the shock for me is that you weren't already one! I always sort of assumed you were. Just goes to show. Anyway, congrats, and welcome to the cabal! ;-) Angr/talk 21:30, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

hi. thanks. it's ok, i may not use the extra functions for a while anyway (only thing i've done is to delete a speedy delete). it's nice to see that you are working to beef up theoretical linguistics. take care – ishwar  (speak) 06:51, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Happy Valentine's day!

Happy Valentine's Day, my dear Ish! Phædriel

hi. thanks. i hope you have a happy day, too. peace – ishwar  (speak) 00:56, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] WikiProject Indigenous peoples of North America

Dear Ish, seeing you adding yourself to the newly created WikiProject Indigenous peoples of North America fills me with joy and relief. I was about to make a template to formally invite several users whose expertise on the subject I have in high regard, among whom you hold a priviledged spot, and then I saw you immediately took the task of starting to categorize articles as part of the project. Allow me to give you the warmest welcome, and I hope this is but the beginning of a long and fruitful cooperation. Cheers, Phædriel ♥ ^{tell me} - 22:01, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

well, i'll do what i can. and continue to have my fun. i wouldnt really call myself an expert on anything except Apachean langs. i am currently focusing on South America for the time being (since it is even further neglected in cyberspace). i have made a page, i think, on all North American language families, but some of these may be not be filled out. (of course, there are/were many peoples whose language we know nothing about -- language death). South America, here on Wikipedia, is much sadder. and there are a lot more languages, which are often more challenging to find out about for a non-South American specialist like myself.

thank you for the warm welcome & the project. peace – ishwar  (speak) 00:04, 11 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Extending Tahltan article

Hi, I noticed your work on the Tahltan page. Kudos to you for doing this! And thank you.

Some other links re Tahltan language I've collected here.

Perhaps I'll add them at some point, but thought I'd draw your attn to them in the meantime.

More to the point: Tahltan is also a *place* - viz. at the confluence of the Tahltan and Stikine Rivers. It is a place of considerable historical and cultural significance to the Tahltan people. This ought to be added to this page, but I'm not sure about formatting, etc., much less precise content.

Some history of the Tahltan people would be good to add as well....

I hope to get to all of this, but I lack the time & know-how at the moment.

Tks, userX 05:24, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

thanks for reading and the links.

the page is just a beginning: add whatever you can find out whenever you do.

peace – ishwar  (speak) 05:33, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Congratulations!

Congratulations! It's my pleasure to let you know that, consensus being reached, you are now an administrator. You should read the relevant policies and other pages linked to from the administrators' reading list before carrying out tasks like deletion, protection, banning users, and editing protected pages such as the Main Page. Most of what you do is easily reversible by other sysops, apart from page history merges and image deletion, so please be especially careful with those. You might find the new administrators' how-to guide helpful. Cheers! -- Cecropia 05:08, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

• Congratulations. I'm sure you'll be a fine administrator :-) Keep up the good work, Alhutch 05:13, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

ok. thanks. – ishwar  (speak) 05:15, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

Glad you made it: I know you'll be a fine admin. Congratulations! — mark ✎ 08:00, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

Congratulations from me as well and good luck with the shiny new buttons. - BanyanTree 14:49, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

thank you (both). well, i'll try to be a good one. feel free to let me know if i'm doing poorly. peace – ishwar  (speak) 06:24, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

Yes, congrats, Ish. You're the kind of people I like working with. kwami 01:43, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

hi. thank you. i like working with you, too (& reading your contributions). peace – ishwar  (speak) 01:48, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

Congratulations. I just read about it in the Wikipedia:Wikipedia Signpost. You're a fine contributor and I'm sure you'll be a great administrator. Cheers, -Will Beback 10:22, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

hi. thank you and nice to meet you. cheers – ishwar  (speak) 00:55, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] yo thanks! + Admin nomination

hey man, thanks for accepting the nomination. Even though we have not met, I know from your edits and experience that you'll make a good admin.

I noticed that you answered all of the questions needed. Are you going to expand it, or should the page now be put up on the main RfA page so that others can vote on your adminship? Also, should I put it up?

Thanks!

Thistheman 22:59, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

ok. i guess i am ready. if you want to connect it to the Requests for Adminship, that is fine or i can do it. i think i should ask one of my "conflicts" to participate. peace – ishwar  (speak) 00:14, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

Well I put it up myself, just because I happened to be here. You already have 2 votes of support (1 before I could even put my vote in; I think that's a good sign). So, we'll just wait and see what happens. Wishing you much good luck! Thistheman 05:02, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

Hi again, watch your vote page in case some other people ask questions, because there are those who will ask. Hope all is well! Thistheman 05:57, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

hi. thanks for putting it up & for the encouragement. i'll be watching. however, tuesday must a Non-Wikipedia Day for me as i have many things to do on this day of the week. even if i'm not admin material, i am sure some fellow editors will let me know how i should improve my involvement. peace – ishwar  (speak) 06:04, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Cochise Tradition

I came across this page while prowling Dead-End Pages. I was wondering if you might take a look at it with a view to merging anything useful into Chiricahua then putting it up for deletion. Thanks MNewnham 22:21, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

hi. the Cochise Tradition has nothing to do with Chiricahua peoples or the Chiricahua leader named Cochise. it is a particular region including southeastern Arizona & parts of New Mexico & Mexico of a certain time period that is defined archeologically. this is at least 5000 years ago (i didnt know it may be more than 7000 yrs as the aricle says) which is way before the Apachean ancestors migrated from Canada (they arrived before the Spanish about 600 yrs ago). so, it's its own topic & cant be merged with the Chiricahua page. since North American archeology is poorly represented in Wikipedia, i imagine that this page will remain a stub for a good while. i'm not an anthropologist, so i'm not very good with this. peace – ishwar  (speak) 06:48, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

Thanks, by the way you did a great tidyup job on it. There are a number of similar articles by user:Maru_d that are in the same sphere that need tidying. MNewnham 15:39, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] takelma

i just split off the language from the people and also added a consonants inventory. can you check this out and make sure i did not mess anything up. (this is the first time i attempted such a thing.) --coreyr 07:37, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

ok. i'll take a look. thanks – ishwar  (speak) 06:20, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] 3RR

Hi, Ish. I don't mean to be a wet blanket, but a single, non-descriptive sentence surrounded by an external link is a speedy deletion candidate. If it's deleted and reposted again in its current state, you'll be in a three-revert rule violation. Can you please expand this to at least three or four sentences? Thanks. Best, Lucky 6.9 17:14, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

• Metatypy

i did. you are too efficient. peace – ishwar  (speak) 17:33, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Navajo language

Gidday Ish. An anon recently made a couple of minor but uncited changes to the phonology in the above article, see diff here. They may possibly be valid corrections which were well-spotted, or mistaken ones, or just plain fooling around - I'm not qualified enough to tell the difference, would you be able to take a look? Cheers, --cjllw | TALK 05:31, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

hi. these did not change any content, just the presentation. w is usually called a labial even though it's both labial & velar. from a purely a phonetic point of view, it would make sense to put it under this labial-velar column as the anon has done. "extremely" wasnt a particularly good word choice, but i never bothered to change it.

thanks for watching. peace – ishwar  (speak) 07:10, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

No worries, and thanks for looking in to it.--cjllw | TALK 09:39, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Proto-Athabaskan

Hi Ishwar. I asked this on the Athabaskan languages talk page already, but I haven't gotten a response from anyone yet, so I just decided to repeat the question here. Is Proto-Athabaskan really reconstructed as having two vowels? Campbell 1997 says that Krauss and Golla 1981, Krauss 1979, and Cook and Rice 1989 reconstruct i, u, e ([æ]), a ([ɔ]), and "reduced vowels" α, ə, and ʊ. Thanks! --Whimemsz 23:46, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

hi. i'll answer over there (Talk:Athabaskan languages#Proto-Athabaskan). – ishwar  (speak) 16:26, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Washo language

Hello. I took out the info on the Washo language page you added about Yuki-Wappo as it looked to me that you confused Washo and Wappo. I also expanded the section on Washo's possible relations to other languages. Since you seem to have adopted most of the Native American language pages (and thank you for that) I thought I should let you know. Jfpierce 02:40, 12 January 2006 (UTC)

hi. wow. that was a big mistake of mine. thank you for correcting me & paying attention (since i apparently was not). i'll add some more stuff. peace – ishwar  (speak) 14:26, 12 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Image Deletion

[edit] Image:Barred lambda.png listed for deletion

An image or media file that you uploaded or altered, Image:Barred lambda.png, has been listed at Wikipedia:Images and media for deletion. Please look there to see why this is (you may have to search for the title of the image to find its entry), if you are interested in its not being deleted. Thank you. —MetsBot 18:58, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

• replaced with Image:Barred lambda.svg by User:Zippanova. – ishwar  (speak) 09:15, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Hawaiian Language is Important as Well

Please consider working with me to find a way to respect and represent both Remo and Hawaiian on Wikipedia. Kukini 20:25, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

hi. Hawaiian is represented with its own article: Hawaiian language. as it turns out, i mispelled this alternate name for the Remo language — i should have written Kukuini. so, this reference to Remo should be removed from that page. thanks for making me look again.

however, the word kukini is just a word in the Hawaiian (at least that is all that you have written). if so, then this page will probably be deleted soon because wikipedia is an encyclopedia and not a dictionary. having a separate article on every single word in the Hawaiian language does not belong here. but, it does belong in Wiktionary the related dictionary project which is here: http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Main_Page.

peace – ishwar  (speak) 22:02, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

Good point. As "kukini" were a special category of people in ancient Hawaii, I will have to update that link soon. Best wishes in your work in here. Kukini 22:29, 7 January 2006 (UTC)