Talk:Ise Shrine

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Contents 1 Japanese name 2 Expansion of this article 3 Bogus Chronology 3.1 Sacred Mirror 4 Citation Notice 5 Ise/Shima Province

[edit] Japanese name

What on earth is the rationale behind this renaming? The Japanese name is "Ise-jingu", no dai in sight, and on Google "Ise Shrine" whups "Grand Shrine of Ise" by a margin of 780 to 54,000. Reverting. Jpatokal 02:38, 10 March 2006 (UTC)

The official name of Ise Shrine is only "Jingu". Jingu has some common names as "Ise-no-Jingu" (伊勢の神宮), "Dai-Jingu" (大神宮), "Ise jingu" (伊勢神宮) and so on. "Ise-no-Jingu" means "Shrine of Ise",and "Dai" means grand. N yotarou 17:37, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Expansion of this article

For such an important shrine, there is surprisingly little information here, so I've been trying to expand it with a bit of the history of the shrine and its structure. If anyone wants to help out, especially with layout issues, it would be much appreciated. The original overview has been left untouched, so there may be a doubling-up of some info. I also hope to go down to the shrine in the next week or 2 and take some photos. I'll be there for New Year's eve and get some good photos from that to expand the article even more. Ka-ru 07:13, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

Good luck -- you'll need it. The Ise Shrine is rather frustrating photographic subject, because it's not possible to get within viewing distance of the main buildings...! Jpatokal 10:12, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

This Image is the main building of Naiku. N yotarou 17:37, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Bogus Chronology

The article suggests that "The design of Ise Shrine dates back to before the introduction of Buddhism and Chinese influence on architecture". The establishment of the Ise Shrine was in 690 CE, but the oldest surviving Buddhist temple in Japan (the Horyuji temple near Nara) dates from 670 CE. Anyone have a source saying differently? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.2.247.85 (talk) 13:31, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

Agreed. Looking into it, the 690 date (actually 692) is the first rebuilding of the shrine. I believe the section in question is supposed to imply the style pre-dates the direct China-influenced style of Buddhist temples. It really is poorly written and needs to be tidied up to be clearer and to be referenced. I've done some tidying up, but more is needed. If I get time, I'll try and do more. Ka-ru 02:22, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

Okay, I've finished updating the section on architecture as well as cleaning up the establishment of the shrine section. It should be clear now that, although the shrine building may not pre-date the first Buddhist temple (though they were within 10 years of each other), the style of the building draws from pre-Buddhist traditional Japanese building methods. I hope this resolves the problem. Thanks for pointing it out. Ka-ru 03:00, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

I'm sorry but I think there're some mistranslations in "www.isejingu.or.jp". For example, "お米をはじめ衣食住" should be translated　to "Rice, other foods, clothing and housing", not "agriculture and industry".--N yotarou 17:32, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Sacred Mirror

There is only one national treasure in Ise shrine (Jingu-shicho, not Naiku [1]). 玉篇巻 is Makimono, not mirror. And "Sacred Mirror" (ja:八咫鏡 and etc.) is not a national treasure. --N yotarou 18:16, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Citation Notice

I've gone through nearly the entire article now and added citations where I could. Any objects to now removing the Citation Required notice from the top of the article? If so, please add the notice back to the article. Ka-ru 01:41, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Ise/Shima Province

I've reverted references to Ise and Shima provinces made by N yotarou for the following reasons: Firstly Naiku is in the southern part of Ise City, not Ise Province. Ise Province no longer exists (it forms part of Mie Prefecture), and the southern part of Ise Province was around the city of Kumano, over 100km from Naiku. Secondly, the 123 additional shrines and sanctuaries are located in the vicinity of Naiku and Geku (ie, Ise City), as mentioned in the sourced Ise Jingu website. Also, Shima Province no longer exists and is therefore not appropriate for describing the current location of the Shrine. Ka-ru 03:47, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

I'm going to explain in Japanese because I don't know any sources in English and anyone can't understand this comment without understanding Japanese.

• 内宮正宮の所在地は伊勢市全域では南部ではなくほぼ中央です。Mapion
• Ka-ruさんが"sanctuaries"のsourceとして示した公式サイトの英語ページにはsanctuariesの位置を示す地名は一切出さずに"In the area around Jingu"という曖昧な表現を用いていますので、"sanctuaries in Ise"は典拠が示されないとしか評価できませんし、日本語のページでは伊勢市・松阪市・鳥羽市、度会郡・多気郡・志摩郡（志摩郡は合併して志摩市になっていますので、古い情報です）の地名が書かれていますので間違った表現としかいえません。ここで正しく"city of Ise, Shima, Matsusaka, and Toba...."と列記するよりは旧国で示す方が簡潔に表現できますし、将来市町村合併が行なわれても影響を受けることがない利点があります。
• 伊勢国南部をja:南勢（南伊勢、あるいは南勢州の略）と呼び、南勢と言う言葉は2007年現在でも三重県の行政区分などで用いられています。

1. 南勢と旧志摩国の地域と合わせて「南勢志摩」と呼ぶこともあります。三重県
2. 宇治浦田町が最南端のja:国道23号のバイパス道路が "南勢バイパス" と名付けられています。国土交通省

• 天気予報などでは、伊勢市は多くの場合「三重県南部」に分類されます。旧伊勢国南端よりさらに南方に旧紀伊国の熊野市などがあるにもかかわらず、です。Yahoo! 天気予報
• 神宮のある度会を伊勢国南部とする例を示します。三重県歴史コンテンツ
• ja:神社本庁総長やja:皇學館大学理事長などを勤めたja:櫻井勝之進さんは、『伊勢神宮』（1969年、学生社、ISBN 4311407041）という書籍の19ページ14行目で内宮鎮座の地を「度会の国の南端」と書いています。伊勢国南端である度会の南端と識者が記したのですから、内宮鎮座の地を伊勢国南部と呼ぶことに何ら問題はないでしょう。

Western United Statesの東端はアメリカのほぼ中央にしかみえなくても西部なのですから、内宮の所在地を伊勢国南部と表現しても問題はないはずです。宇治を伊勢市南部とは現地では普通言いませんし、伊勢市街地南部とも言わないのですから、そのようなことをWikipediaに書くのは適切には思えません。--N yotarou 11:59, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

Unfortunately, my Japanese isn't good enough to easily read the above, so it will take me maybe too much time to do so. Thank you for the part-English-Japanese comment you left on your talk page. From your talk page, it seems you are saying the following:

(1) "Ise" was orginally used to mean Ise Province, and that using "Ise" might mean Ise Shrine or Ise City.

(2) Naiku and Geku are in Ise City, but other shrines are in the areas surrounding Ise City, such as Matsusaka City, Toba City, Watarai-gun and Taki-gun. Also, "shrines and sancuaries" should just be "shrines". Also, the shrine of Shinojima island is in Aichi Prefecture, so not all the associated shrines are in Mie Prefecture.

I agree. I will change it to show both those facts.

(3) Uji is the city area of Ise, or the southern part of "Ise Province", and that Naiku is in the mountainous area "south of Uji", so "southern Ise City" is not accurate and "Uji" and "province" are both improper. (?)

Yes. On the map, Naiku is actually in the center of the area marked "Ise City", not in the south. But Naiku is south of the city center. As shown on maps, Naiku is located in the area of 宇治浦田 town. This should also be fixed in the artice.

I am looking forward to the list of shrines that you are making. Thank you for your hard work.Ka-ru 02:07, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

Hello, I think I've completed the list. May I put it into the Ise Shrine article? Or make another article?

(1) Yes, I think only "Ise" is no good.

(2) Many shrines of Ise Shrine are in Ise city, but only in Ise city or Watarai-gun or Ise province. There are no shrines of Ise Shrine in Shinojima of Aichi prefecture, but tehre is a facility of Ise Shrine with a Torii to make dried sea bream. I and perhaps many people think it is a holly place. Before Meiji period, Shinojima was among to Ise or Shima province.

(3) Naiku is in Uji-Tachi-cho (宇治館町), not Uji-Urata (宇治浦田). "Naiku is in Uii" is not wrong, but I think Geku must be written "in Yamada" in that case, and "Uji" is no good if "Ise province" is no good because Uji is not exist same as "Ise province" officially since (perhaps) Meiji period. --N yotarou 15:18, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

N yotarou, thank you for your hard work! It is not easy with 2 different languages! I have added your list of shrines to the end of the article. I have tried to correct the issues you have raised. Please tell me if there is anything else that needs fixing. Thank you. Ka-ru 16:16, 19 October 2007 (UTC)