Template talk:Iron Man

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Contents

[edit] Scope

While the idea of a navbox for the important article relating to Daredevil is a good idea, that does not mean that everything gets included.

Things such as:

  • Characters that have appeared but are not intrinsic to the Daredevil mythos:
    • Century (Avengers)
    • Cybermancer (Avengers)
    • Hawkeye (Avengers)
    • Moonraker (Avengers, if that since this is a stub of a stub)
    • Scarlet Witch (Avengers, X-Men)
    • Spider-Woman (Julia Carpenter)
    • U.S. Agent (Avengers, Captain America)
    • Wonder Man (Avengers)
  • Red linked characters and most stub articles:
    • H.O.M.E.R.
    • Yin Sin
    • Minotaur
    • Wong Chu
  • Minor villains, or villains "borrowed" from the mythos of other characters:
    • Advisor (Minor)
    • Black Widow (Avengers)
    • Crimson Cowl (Avengers)
    • Crusher I (Minor, with a naming problem)
    • Dark Aegis (Minor)
    • Godzilla
    • Grey Gargoyle (Thor)
    • Griffin (Minor)
    • Hypnotia (Minor)
    • Immortus (Avengers)
    • Man-Bull (Minor)
    • Stilt-Man (Daredevil)
    • Sunset Bain (Machine Man)
    • Whirlwind (Avengers)
  • Sections of article already listed
    • Powers and abilities (It's in the Iron Man article)
    • Fictional character biography
    • Bibliography
  • Television shows where the character made single appearances (almost all of them) as well as episode lists
  • Films that are either cameos or part of an ensemble cast (again, almost all of them)
  • Video games where the character isn't the focus, or are red links (almost all again)
  • Publications where the character isn't the focus.
  • Miscellaneous items that are non-notable (the species stub)

Are fan-cruft things that make the 'box unwieldy and almost unusable and should not be included.

I'm going to be bold and weed both the box and where it's been placed. Frankly, the 'box shouldn't windup on every page, just what it lists.

- J Greb (talk) 15:05, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

I strongly disagree about the video games portion. Captain America and the Avengers was the very first game in which Iron Man was a playable character. Just because he wasn't the "main" focus, doesn't automatically mean that his contributions were marginal. Also the Marvel Superheroes TV program was the first show of any kind to feature Iron Man. Since he got his own segment (as opposed to a mere cameo), this show ought to be included. TMC1982 7:51 p.m., 1 January 2008 (UTC)
(Relocation of comments by TMC1982)
- (H.O.M.E.R. was a character featured on the 1990s Iron Man cartoon series. He was an artificial intellegence assistant of Tony Stark's)
- I included Avengers characters because they were apart of Force Works, a spin-off team lead by Iron Man.
First, please show enough respect of other editors to not add you comments in such a way as to make it looks like they posted your words.
Second, navboxes are for moving between articles that are fundamentally linked to the 'box's topic. The intent is to keep that topic tight so that, especially with comic book topics, the 'box doesn't wind up with all the articles from a company included.
That being said, you have a fair point with Marvel Superheroes. But that's about it.
Including games or team just because Iron Man is one character among many again opens the 'box up to including the lion's share of Marvel related articles. The logic that pulls in Force Works and its members also pulls in the Avenges (team and members since Stark bankrolled the team), S.H.I.L.D. (Since he is the Director), the Initiative, the Order, the Illuminati (his pet projects) and so on. The ensemble video games and team books are not Iron Man vehicles, they shouldn't be in the 'box.
On another note... tweaked the colors to prevent potential eye strain. - J Greb (talk) 04:26, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

Force Works however, were prominately featured on the 1990s Iron Man series (during the first season at least) as opposed to the other teams you mentioned. TMC1982 8:55 p.m., 1 January 2008 (UTC)

Adding sub sections for better organization...

[edit] Teams

As with the villains, using the show is not a good argument for putting a team like Force Works and the characters that made it up into the box. Yes, the show was divorced from the Avengers material, but the majority of the Force Works article is about the comic book material. That is a continuation of the West Coast Avengers making it more an Avengers topic than an Iron Man one.

And the inclusion of the Avenger movies has a similar problem, they are not Iron Man topics, they are Avengers topics. Including them in this 'box is out of place as including the article on the Avengers itself.

- J Greb (talk) 23:30, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Important storylines

Important storylines are just that, story lines, arcs, not anthology series and in most cases, not ongoing titles. And definitely not story arcs that focus on another character or the Marvel Universe as a whole.

Are Iron Man and Sub-Mariner and Tales of Suspense important to Iron Man? Yes. Are the Iron Man topics? No. It doesn't matter if it's where the character first appeared or where the strip resided for a period.

- J Greb (talk) 23:30, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Video games

Again, the topic of most of the articles listed in the 'box right now is either the Avengers or the Marvel Universe with Iron Man being one character among many, at best. These do have a place in the "Iron Man in other media" article, but that's where it links in, not adding the articles directly to the 'box.

- J Greb (talk) 23:30, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Villains who should be included

Grey Gargoyle and Whirlwind were featured as Mandarin's henchmen on the 1990s Iron Man series. TMC1982 9:45 p.m., 1 January 2008 (UTC)

That's not a good reason for inclusion. It's actually a very good reason for the characters not to be included in the 'box. The only inclusion it's a good argument for would be in a section for the TV show in a "Foes of Iron Man" list.
The 'box is not supposed to all inclusive, otherwise it becomes a useless morass of links. The best place to draw that limit with the characters is with the "major", or "signature" characters from the comics. That means you stop and ask, is the first connection a general user with little or no intrinsic "Marvel Comics knowledge" going to make with "Grey Gargoyle" or "Griffin" or "Blizzard" be "Iron Man"? If the honest answer is wither "No" or "Who?" then the character should not be in the 'box. With Grey Gargoyle and Whirlwind the answer is "No." For Crusher, Dark Aegis, Griffin, and Hypnotia the answer is "Who?"
The same question can be applied to the supporting characters, and the it can result in the same need to an "Iron Man supporting characters" list.
And just for clarity, I'm emphasizing list because "Foe" and "Supporting character" categories have gotten a standing consensus in CfDs of inappropriate. - J Greb (talk) 22:56, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

I kind of find it funny and a bit ironic that you seem to claim to not know who some of these characters are (i.e. Crusher, Dark Aegis, Griffin, and Hypnotia) yet, you're still pointing out your superiority of Marvel Comics over mine. TMC1982 3:01 p.m., 2 January 2008 (UTC)

Re-read the post.
I'm saing put yourself in the place of a person using the 'box who has limited knowledge of the topic of "Iron Man". For the 'box to be a useful navigation tool, it has to hit the fundamental points and be uncluttered. Informing the user comes from them reading the article and following the embedded links there. If the user can't work through what the recognize and obscure minutia in the 'box, it becomes a large, ugly box at the bottom of the page. - J Greb (talk) 23:36, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Additional recommendation

I think this is a good box. It appears a lot of work was invested into the template; however the size reduces the convenience, consequently the accessibly of the navbox (the primary point). 1.) I really liked the color scheme initally, but I do find it it is a bit distracting on the pages that it has tagged. 2.) The minimally populated Armor sectioin could easily be incorperated into the misc section. 3.) I also would encourage that the telvision and film series be incorporated into eachother. 4.) I would recommend that villians be relegated to strict/exclusive Iron Man villians: Iron Man 2020 has never been significant in the greater Iron Man mythos; Nefaria, Arsenal, Crusher are more Avengers villains than Iron Man (Griffin a Champions villain); Roxxon Oil isn't a villain; Dark Aegis can be deleted as it has no notability whatsoever. 5.) Similarly, most of the "Marvel" video games should be deleted as they do not feature the character in a primary role (leaving that section to be incorporated int the other media section). - 66.109.248.114 (talk) 02:52, 3 January 2008 (UTC).

“ Roxxon Oil isn't a villain ”
“ Roxxon Oil (a corporation) - A major business rival of Stark Enterprises. They have a shady reputation and are constantly sending supervillains to sabotage Stark Enterprises. - List of Iron Man enemies ”

TMC1982 2:05 a.m., 5 January 2008 (UTC)

1. Wikipedia, should never be used as a source when resourcing articles, and by expansion templates. 2. While the editor in has chose to quote a list article. The quote reads "buisness rival" which does not indicate villian (as villains by definition are characters); in addition to quote the Roxxon Oil article:
“ is the name of a fictional massive petroleum corporation appearing in comic book stories published by Marvel Comics in the Marvel Universe. ”

Members of the company could be villains, a fictional company can not. Please take note that the article itself does not state the company is villainous, but rather list the members of the company who have such behavior. In short:

“ Roxxon Oil isn't a villain. ”
Regarding Roxxon... at best it's "Miscellania", as would (and I'm really not advocating articles for these) Stark Industries, Stan Industries, and Fugikawa as all are fictional corporations.
The last three make more sense for the template since they are things created specifically for Iron Man stories. Roxxon was not tied to any one character... it was more of a Avengers plot element, if not a Marvel Universe at large one.
- J Greb (talk) 02:36, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Weeding

I've weeded out a lot of minor information from the box, but there's probably still more that needs to be done. The villains list is far too long, and can we not standardise the colours at all? Personally, most of this should already be mentioned in the article or found in Category:Iron Man. Is this template in anyway needed? Hiding T 10:42, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

Now it's (particularly, anything/everything relating to "Other media" such as video games, films and TV shows) full of clutter instead of being "smooth." Why should the TV shows (not counting his guest starring appearances, two shows heavily featuring him) and films need to be together. To date, if you count the Ultimate Avengers films, his own animated film, The Invincible Iron Man, the upcoming Next Avengers film, and the upcoming live-action film, then that's five movies featuring Iron Man in a prominate role. Not counting Captain America and the Avengers (or the various Marvel, multi-character fighting games), Iron Man has at least two games starring himself to have their own articles on Wikipedia. And I have absolutely no clue why you believe that Iron Man centric storylines like Armor Wars or the Ultimate Iron Man series shouldn't be included in the template? TMC1982 1:31 a.m., 5 January 2008 (UTC)