Talk:Iron maiden

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[edit] Lame edit war

Please, stop this revert warring.

Since there is obviously no agreement that either the torture device or the band is primary, the disambiguation page seems to be the only sensible choice of destination.

Reginmund, would you agree? --Piet Delport 06:11, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

Actually, were coming close to a resolution. I had also stated reasons as to why "iron maiden" should link to torture device, see Talk:Trivium and User talk:Maurauth. Reginmund 06:22, 24 June 2007 (UTC)
The only thing the debate is demonstrating is that neither of these topics are clearly dominant, so neither of them deserve special treatment: "iron maiden" should go to disambiguation. --Piet Delport 08:10, 24 June 2007 (UTC)
That is what the debate is about. The reason it shouldn't is because "iron maiden" in not ambiguous at all, however, "Iron Maiden" capitalised is. Also, if "iron maiden" would go directly to the disambiguation page, why wouldn't "Iron Maiden", especially since when capitalised, it is more ambiguous. Reginmund 17:55, 24 June 2007 (UTC)
It probably should, then. --Piet Delport 18:37, 24 June 2007 (UTC)
Some people are very bad with capital letters. Inevitably people will type "iron maiden" when looking for the band, or "Iron Maiden" when looking for the device. There are other uses on top of that (Margaret Thatcher springs to mind), so it seems to me that the disambig page is the best solution. bd2412 T 19:25, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
If the miniscule text would go to the disambiguation page, then so should the capital text too. Reginmund 20:25, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
Right. --Piet Delport 00:51, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Target of redirect

Reginmund, I already know what your opinion on this matter is, so please stop pointing me to an old discussion you had with another user; I disagree with your reasoning, and so to it seems did Maurauth. Much of your argument seems to be based around the original meaning of the name, which tends to mean little on Wikipedia, and your belief that users should capitalize their search terms. As I've pointed out to you elsewhere, this redirect never pointed to the torture device until your involvement, and there has been nothing but edit wars and controversy ever since. Looking through the edit history of this page there have been several users besides myself who have reverted your edits, while few or none seem to share your views.

As current consensus seems to favour the band as the primary subject, I believe it's more appropraiate to redirect this page to that article, as a redirect from other capitalization. In addition, there was no consensus to move the torture device article to this page, and redirecting to that article goes against that decision since it's essentially the same thing.

Having said that, I'm more than happy redirecting to the dab page as a compromise, which seems sensible given the apparent strong feelings on either side of the argument. It's just a shame that you don't agree. PC78 02:00, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

Yet there also have been several other users who restored the redirect to the torture device. Yet Maurauth did not agree with my reasoning, however he could not counter my point and my point is the original meaning of the name does mean a lot on Wikipedia. The "consensus" is to keep the page "iron maiden (torture device)" where it is and not to redirect iron maiden to the band. This is based on the fact that the original name is not necessarily more obscure because of the Google results. The apparatus doesn't have fan clubs, CDs, lyrics, music downloads, performance tickets, etc.. It only has a half-millennium history. However, the band has all of the aforementioned except it has a thirty-two year history. "Popular names" aren't necessarily superior to primary names. That is why we keep such articles as Franz Ferdinand at the archduke, not at the band. Reginmund 02:16, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

No, there has only been one other user who restored the redirect to the torture device, and then only once. There is no consensus to keep the redirect at the torture device, this a complete fantasy on your part and the edit history proves it. Don't bring WP:OTHERSTUFF arguments into this, what's good for one article isn't necessarily good for another. The truth is that the torture device is a realtively specialized subject area, whereas the band is not - what do you think the average user is more interested in, methods of torture or popular music? Policy disagrees with you regarding original meaning: WP:NC clearly says "Names of Wikipedia articles should be optimized for readers over editors; and for a general audience over specialists." PC78 02:29, 29 September 2007 (UTC)
No it is not a fantasy. There have been two who restored it. Please remain civil by refraining from using slanderous hyperboles. I should take into account that you have a fantasy that somehow the vote to move iron maiden (torture device) to iron maiden was a vote to where the redirect should point. Now you have a question for me. I, personally was unaware of the band at a time I knew about the torture device. I guarantee that plenty of Wikipedians would want information on the apparatus. Enough to disambiguate by capitalisation and that doesn't include the lazy people who are alienated from the shift key. So, not only is it the original usage, but not as obscure as you might think. Reginmund 02:40, 29 September 2007 (UTC)
The second user did so in error, and you can refer to the relavent discussion on my talk page to confirm that. The move request isn't entirely seperate from this debate, and I fail to see how you disagree. You have nothing to guarantee with regarding other users, and kindly refrain from calling other people "lazy", people who may be unaware that capitalization is an issue regarding searches, or people who may not have the same command of the English language as you or I. I never said that the torture device was "obscure", but it is a specialized subject area, and the band are more well known than you tend to think. You can go on about original usage all you want, but I still don't see this supported by policy. PC78 02:51, 29 September 2007 (UTC)
Here's a WP:3O for you all. Leave it at the Disambig. Those readers whi capitalize both words are likely aware that IM is a band. those who search as 'Im' may be looking for any number of topics. Leave it as a disambig, because, as the disambig shows, there are a number of potential topics. ThuranX 03:16, 29 September 2007 (UTC)
Then if we move iron maiden to the DAB page then how about Iron Maiden to keep consistensy. the fact is these two articles both have their own relevance and commonality and whether or not one is better known than the other is not an issue. I would agree to directing to the DAB page but then to keep consistensy, direct Iron Maiden there too. Whether or not these people are lazy, they should figure out sooner or later how to use their search terms correctly. Otherwise, the best choice is to throw the links into a big pile of options. Reginmund 03:46, 29 September 2007 (UTC)
I'm more than happy to accept the dab page as the target of this redirect. Frankly, this argument between you and I is getting us nowhere, and this seems to be the best solution for all. But of course, if you want to disambiguate the band's article, then that requires a move request of its own. PC78 11:40, 29 September 2007 (UTC)
The dab page should be moved to the base name, then, to avoid being one of the Wikipedia:WikiProject Disambiguation/Malplaced disambiguation pages‎. -- JHunterJ 13:17, 29 September 2007 (UTC)
Done. A vote is currently in progress at Talk:Iron Maiden. Reginmund 19:21, 29 September 2007 (UTC)
The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the proposal was Move rejected. --WoohookittyWoohoo! 12:37, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Requested move

Iron maiden → Iron maiden (disambiguation)

WP:NC(P) recommends "adding a parethical (bracketed) disambiguator to the page name: for instance when both spellings are often or easily confused." In this case, only one letter capitalization separates Iron maiden, a disambiguation page, from Iron Maiden, the band. This would not affect the location of the band article; it would only entail moving this disambiguation article and having Iron maiden redirect to Iron Maiden. — AjaxSmack 05:27, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Survey

Feel free to state your position on the renaming proposal by beginning a new line in this section with *'''Support''' or *'''Oppose''', then sign your comment with ~~~~. Since polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account Wikipedia's naming conventions.
  • Strong Oppose. The page is correctly located and the band is not the primary use. Don't change what is not broken. Vegaswikian (talk) 08:18, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
  • Oppose As above, perhaps the band should be moved back to Iron Maiden (band) --Closedmouth (talk) 12:23, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
  • Oppose. Normally I'd agree, since I believe that the band is the primary use. However, the current situation seems to have provided an amicable compromise over a couple of seriously lame edit wars regarding the target of Iron maiden as a redirect. Unless a concensus can first be reached for moving the band to Iron Maiden (band), this move would only be re-opening a can of worms. PC78 (talk) 12:30, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
  • Oppose as already discussed. older ≠ wiser 17:46, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
  • Oppose as already beaten to death. bd2412 T 18:29, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
  • Oppose, and move the band page back as User:Closedmouth suggests. Iron Maiden is not nearly enough disambiguation. Llamasharmafarmerdrama (talk) 19:13, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Discussion

Any additional comments:

What is all this "already discussed" and "beaten to death"? This article was originally at Iron maiden (disambiguation) and was moved a few months ago unilaterally with no discussion at all. If you're referring to debates over the band or the torture device, as the nomination states, this has nothing to do with either moving the band or the torture device. — AjaxSmack 23:58, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

Errm, yes it does, although somewhat indirectly. A major point of contention in those discussions was whether the band or the torture device was the primary topic. The present situation (having the lower case spelling as a disambiguation page) is a direct result of those earlier discussions. (BTW, there are 74 deleted edits excised in multiple deletions which may make it confusing to trace out exactly what title the disambiguation page was under at any given point.) older ≠ wiser 00:13, 16 February 2008 (UTC)
Those other debates decided that the band was the primary topic and that the torture device should have a parenthetical (or failed to decide otherwise). The present situation (having the lower case spelling as a disambiguation page) did not result from those debates — it was done later. The closing admin specifically said here that Iron maiden should redirect to Iron Maiden. I can't believe this is even controversial since its a textbook example of WP:NC(P). — AjaxSmack 00:51, 16 February 2008 (UTC)
The other discussions determined (not without strong objections) that Iron Maiden (both terms capitalized) unambiguously referred to the band. Despite the opinion of the admin who closed the previous debate, there was clearly no consensus one way or the other as to the uncapitalized form. older ≠ wiser 04:36, 16 February 2008 (UTC)
Given the earlier controversies, this is also a textbook example of WP:IAR. PC78 (talk) 10:52, 16 February 2008 (UTC)
  • The guideline disambiguating things not only by capitalisation should be followed. I would support a move to place the band at Iron Maiden (band). Dumrovii (talk) 04:24, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.