Talk:Iron maiden (torture device)

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Find reference for: "Members of the Iraqi Olympic team claim it was in use during Saddam's rule against persons who ran afoul of Uday." Add information on the history of the Iron Maiden of Nuremburg and its discovery More WP:NPOV wording Explain why the article clearly states that the Iron Maiden was not invented until the 19th century, but a hoax history of it was made in the 18th century. How could anyone make up a story about something that wont even exist for another hundred years?

Contents 1 REDIRECT 2 The Iron Maiden was never used in the Middle Ages 3 Urban Legend? It seems so... 4 General 5 Forgery? 6 Urban Legend Status 7 Execution method 8 Older origins and wider geographical use 9 Yay for improvement! 10 Johann Philipp Siebenkees / Schandmantel 11 Redirect 12 Contradiction 13 Supposed operation 14 Contradiction in dates 15 Hellboy Reference? 16 Contradiction 17 One found in Iraq 18 Contested move request 19 Requested move 19.1 Survey 19.2 Oppose 19.3 Discussion 20 Trivia

[edit] REDIRECT

This page should NOT!!!! be the default page for the search "Iron Maiden". It should either be the band or straight to the disambiguation page. I don't know how to change this, but it is really stupid the way it is now.

I agree.--E tac 19:56, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] The Iron Maiden was never used in the Middle Ages

The Iron Maiden was never used in Medieval Europe or by any Catholic institution. It was invented after the Reformation in Protestant Germany.

[edit] Urban Legend? It seems so...

As written in the article, it is not true that this Iron Maiden is the only one. There's another just for representative purpose at Kyburg castle in Switzerland. Please see http://www.schlosskyburg.ch/rundgang/folter_jungfrau.html

I agree. And the publication quoted in de:Schandmantel looks more reliable than the sources we (don't) have have here. The gist of it is that several Iron Maidens have been found, but none is believed to be authentic, i.e. not one was used for torture or execution in the medieval ages – unless you count a pillory as a torture device, that is, because that's what these devices (or some of them) actually were; apparently, nails and spikes were added much later (19th century).

The article as is doesn't reflect any of those problems. Since the editors here have not managed to agree on some wording, I have tagged the article with {{Disputed|date=March 2008}} so people coming here to learn about the Iron Maiden at least get a hint that there is some controversy. Algae 19:27, 5 October 2005 (UTC)

I have made an effort to improve the article with some weasel words (such as "supposedly" and "allegedly"). I think that the Iron Maiden was as much a device of torture as it was of execution, and it would have been possible to remove someone from it so that he could confess to anything or implicate others in heresies or treasonous plots, real or imagined.

I have no means of determining whether the device was more than an urban legend. Unless it were adequately ventilated, someone put into it would have suffocated, and all screams would have stopped as the victim expired from the lack of oxygen. Death from asphyxiation would be relatively swift. But if it were ventilated, people nearby would have been able to hear the screams, so we have a contradiction in the story.

But "allowed the victim to remain standing" (or similar language)? The device would have forced the victim to remain standing, and as he weakened he would have drooped, only to feel the spikes dig into him even more. --66.231.41.57 21:54, 3 November 2005 (UTC)

the german article clearly calls the am an urban legend. the thorns seem to be added in the 19th century. thus they have been removed now from some of the maidens.--Tresckow 14:36, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

The iron maiden was not a LEGEND!!

The iron maiden was not a LEGEND!!

[edit] General

Can somebody include something about the torture device? -- Zoe

Is the torture device also with dual caps? Small distinction, I know, with only two words in the title, but.... --KQ

Good point.  :-) -- Zoe

I would be interested in seeing an article on the torture device, though. --KQ

Plus the rack, and other torture devices.  :-) -- Zoe, being sadistic tonight.

Let's start an inquisition. I have some unfounded accusations lying around.  :-) --KQ

I can have a stab at it over the weekend. This article btw belongs under Iron Maiden (band). I will move it there at the same time as I work on the real Iron Maiden. user:sjc

Are people deathly afraid that someone will use the device on them if they date their comments? :) The real purpose of my comment here is to ask why this isn't a disambiguation page? I suspect the band will have far more google hits than the device. I think far more people know about the band than this somewhat obscure torture device but I'm probably biased because I actually own a couple of the band's albums on vinyl. RedWolf 05:42, May 25, 2005 (UTC)

I have to agree with RedWolf. A search on Google revealed the band article on the first page of the results, with the torture device article only on the third page. So I think that the band topic should be considered primary and thus moved here, with the Nuremberg's Maiden placed under the title Iron Maiden (torture device) or something like that. Or, as an alternative, we could make this into a disambiguation page, like RedWolf proposed. And note that I'm not really biased since I don't own any of the band's albums :) Aegicen 28 June 2005 17:52 (UTC)

So, I have moved this page and created a disambig list at Iron Maiden. Will fix the links soon. Aegicen 3 July 2005 09:14 (UTC)

Answering the call for (more) sources, I'll put this here instead of out on the actual page, as those more hip to Wikipedia Ways can decide how much of this would constitute fair use. As a single source, it may not be authoritative, but comes from a fairly scholarly work, and not much else has been offered here for discussion. "The 'iron maiden' ... may well be called a curiosity of legal history. Because of the long spikes inside it, it was regarded for a long time as an instrument of execution and hence as proof of the cruelty of medival penal practices. Admittedly, the famous legal historian Karl von Amira (1848-1930) also proceeded from the assumption that the iron maiden was an executioner's tool. He advanced the opinion, however, that it was never used as such, but served only the purpose of 'territion', i.e. of terrifying. The more recent research work of F. T. Schulz, however, seems adequate proof that the spikes were a later addition and that the iron maiden was accordingly a pillory-like instrument for inflicting degrading punishment, a mantle of infamy for women. The iron maiden exhibited in the Crime Museum in Rothenburg ob der Tauber presumably comes from Bohemia and to all appearances dates from the 16th century. In the past century it stood in a castle, was sold to England in 1889, went from there to American, and came to Rothenburg in 1968. The iron maiden shown in Nurenburg up to its destruction in the war in 1944 was a copy of the one now in Rothenburg." (pp 152-153, "Criminal Justice Through the Ages," edited by Christoph Hinckeldey, published 1993 by Mittelalterisches Kriminalmuseum, Rothenburg o.d.T, translated by John Fosberry.) TMT 2005-10-21

The device in Rothenburg is not an iron maiden, but an infamy cloak originally without nails and spikes. Spikes were added in the 19th century romantic era, but were removed by the museum's historians after finding out about the later addition. see german WP--mmg 22:29, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

I was born in 1976 and lived all my life in the United States, and the torture device is primary in my mind as opposed to the band. Hackwrench 16:32, 12 January 2006 (UTC) PLEASE DO NOT CLICK ON EDITED LINK!!! WILL GIVE YOUR COMPUTER A VIRIS!!!! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.3.89.64 (talk) 00:53, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

Insertformulahere

--76.3.89.64 (talk) 00:56, 20 February 2008 (UTC)--76.3.89.64 (talk) 00:56, 20 February 2008 (UTC)--76.3.89.64 (talk) 00:56, 20 February 2008 (UTC)--76.3.89.64 (talk) 00:56, 20 February 2008 (UTC)--76.3.89.64 (talk) 00:56, 20 February 2008 (UTC)--76.3.89.64 (talk) 00:56, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

--76.3.89.64 (talk) 00:56, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Forgery?

The german article claims that all Iron Maidens were forgeries of the mid-19th century. This is in contradiction to the present article. --84.56.126.121 14:43, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Even worse the article is just silly. How can an iron maiden be built to kill someone slowly? Or more accurately, how can it be built to kill more than one person slowly? Theoretically if you had a great deal of knowledge about human anatomy (more than I would think they did at the time) you could put sharp knives through a person's body without killing them. But the IM's are fixed. If the next guy is two inches shorter they are no longer in the right place. That guy would die. The history of torture is full of forgeries. This looks like one to me. Anyone have any evidence for it in the sense of real academic work, not just something they downloaded off the Web? Lao Wai 09:43, 9 August 2005 (UTC)

Maybe, it was part of the torture procedure: The victim couldn't know for sure if he/she would only be tortured(injured), killed or even both.

[edit] Urban Legend Status

I have asked nicely for proof that this device exists. No one has provided any. The German article, as 84 points out, makes it clear they are all faked. Why should Wikipedia accept an article which states as fact something with, at best, no evidence? Leave it as it is please and stop reverting it. Or, better yet, provide some evidence. Lao Wai 14:10, 23 August 2005 (UTC)

The German article does not "make it clear" they were all fake, it provides no real evidence and even the talk page leads to yet more uncertainty about the virgin's use. But the devices existance cannot be denied. Hell, when the US toppled Iraq a few years ago one of Saddam's son's had one in his torture playroom. Present us with evidence that they were all faked and the article will be changed to indicate that, but for now it should indicate that it was a real. And to address your above point about the Iron Maiden being fixed and killing people of different sizes, the spikes are said to have been moveable to "accomodate" those of differentiating measurements.68.212.105.67 18:11, 23 August 2005 (UTC)

Well then it asserts that they were all fake. It is no more possible to provide evidence of a fake than it is of Santa Claus. The Saddam claim makes it clear what the problem is - people make this stuff up. Any evidence that Saddam's son had one much less used it?

Try this:

TIME.com: Iron Maiden Found in Uday Hussein's Playground -- Page 1 No, not the heavy metal band, the medieval torture device. www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,444889,00.html - Similar pages

Clearly, it is YOU who are spouting off without doing a little research first. What agenda are you pushing, and why? 131.96.14.236 17:23, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

All sorts of bullshit claims have been made about Saddam, I notice few people have even tried to prove them. How can I present evidence of a fake if they are all fake? I can't prove Santa Claus does not exist either. The onus of proof in an encyclopedia ought to be on the people making a positive claim - and if no one can find evidence of its existence it ought to go. The same way there is no page on the existence of unicorns. The spikes thing is clear an ex posto rationalisation as there are no existing models (and probably never were) and what evidence there is is that the spikes did not move. People, for some reason, want to believe this is true and are very very resistent to the truth. Wikipedia should not be in the business of peddling half-baked urban legends. It ought to go entirely, but failing that it ought to be modified until such time someone can provide evidence of its existence. Which I suspect no one will. Lao Wai 20:09, 23 August 2005 (UTC)

It ought to not go entirely. Even entertaining your suspicions that all Iron Maidens are fake, the device is still engrained in the public image and popularized as a method of excruciating torturous pain by sick puppies just like Uday Hussein. Some people may want to know exactly what an Iron Maiden is and there should most definitely be a page for it to inform them. I mean, after all, Unicorns and Santa Claus do not exist, but they get their own pages because they are a definitive part of public lore. Now whether this is simply lore or not, I cannot say just yet, but everything I am coming across seems to point to the existance of these devices and their use as implements of torture and execution, and their current existance. And as for people making this stuff up, well if you put that much distrust in TIME magazine okay, but they ran the story -with pictures- making it clear that not only did Hussein's son have the device, but apparently dulled the spikes putting it to not-so-good use. [[1]]68.212.102.34 09:48, 24 August 2005 (UTC)

Even I don't think it ought to go entirely, but it ought to be moved out of any real world categories and into fictional categories (the same way unicorns are not listed among the mammals). So far all I want it to make it clear this is probably an urban legend. A fairly minor ambition in the circumstances. Even the link from this page says they are faked. And if you read the Times story carefully you will notice they found one 20 metres from his house in a rubbish tip. And if you look at the pictures you will see the spikes are notional - they are not worn down from use, they are purely symbolic spikes. The Times ran the story but the media ran a lot of stories. Even the neo-con press admitted that the Human Shredder was a lie. You see the problem - it is the baby incubators all over again. Lao Wai 10:31, 24 August 2005 (UTC)

Even without spikes it'd still meet most people's definition of torture. And it would count as a torture device even if Uday owned it but never used it. For the record, I believe the Iraqi athletes who claim that they were tortured by Uday. Andjam 12:24, 2 September 2005 (UTC)

Every wikipedia is ran on its own. Anyways keep it in Cat:Torture as a lot of articles there seem to have never existed. Also how do you explain the picture that's there? How's it a hoax? And it was amazingly uncivil of you to say "reverting someone's reign of terror". Redwolf24 17:53, 24 August 2005 (UTC)

Me, Necropenguin, and even an anon prefer the version as such vs. your version. Wikipedia runs by consensus and 3:1 is a fair one. Keep as is. Redwolf24 17:55, 24 August 2005 (UTC)

I am sorry you thought that was uncivil. I thought you were being funny. If you refer to your own actions as a reign of terror I do not see how you can complain about others doing so too. But if it helps, I am sorry I hurt your feelings. It was not my intentions. The fact that a lot of other people screw up is not a good reason, imo, for us to keep doing so too. One article at a time. The picture is simple - as the article says there are a lot of modern "reconstructions". Presumably it is not the (alleged) one single unique original. Over time a consensus can change. I think that most people here are reasonable and once we have finished discussing it there will be a new consensus. Admittedly that may be that I am wrong, but I live in hope. Certainly Wikipedia is dynamic and does not rest of past achievements. You may have noticed I have not changed it recently. The bottom line remains a lack of evidence. I think there will never be any evidence, but certainly no one else has found any. Lao Wai 18:17, 24 August 2005 (UTC)

The Finnish "New Encyclopedia" ("Uusi Tietosanakirja" [2]) from the year 1964 includes a short article on the Iron Maiden torture device ("Rautaneitsyt" in Finnish). The article maintains that the Iron Maiden was built in Nuremberg in the year 1867 and that it "presumably" was never used. The encyclopedia's editor-in-chief was an esteemed Finnish lexicographer Veli Valpola, with the historians and researchers Aira Kemiläinen and Tuomo Polvinen as historical advisors. -128.214.198.11 08:27, 15 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Execution method

The Iron Maiden was a method of execution, not torture. It takes its design (spikes) from a type of press which used spikes to impale people; the Iron Maiden, in contrast to many tools of execution, is highly stylized.

Other forms of impalement can be found in the middle ages, where spikes were set through a wooden barrel with a person who is trapped inside. --80.209.54.2 18:09, 1 November 2005 (UTC)

It can be execution and torture at the same time! WhisperToMe 02:59, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Older origins and wider geographical use

There are references to the basic idea used in classical times, when the victim was clamped and embraced by spiked arms. The enclosed form as shown in this article was a later development. They were in widespread use: I found one casually displayed in a small museum in an old town in France. BrownBean 02:58, 22 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Yay for improvement!

I am happy to see that Gracefool has taken the initiative to work the concerns from the talk page into the article. If anyone feels like further improving it, the article still seems somewhat inconsistent when read as a whole, particularly because the spirit of the old article oozes out in several places (e.g. "The doors of the Maiden were shut slowly" as if we had it on a reliable source that and how these contraptions were used). Algae 09:34, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

Why don't you do it? :p ··gracefool |☺ 22:41, 8 January 2006 (UTC)

Because I am just barely qualified to complain. Fixing it well is much harder. That and I'm a lazy bastard. Algae 22:58, 8 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Johann Philipp Siebenkees / Schandmantel

Hello, I was asked about my sources for my edits on 20. Jan 2006; 00:57 (about the story of a coin forger killed with an iron maiden, and about the 19th century origin of iron maidens as a misunderstanding of a medieval "Schandmantel"). My main source was german wikipedia. Further readings (all in german):

• Schild, Wolfgang: Die eiserne Jungfrau. Dichtung und Wahrheit (Schriftenreihe des Mittelalterlichen Kriminalmuseums Rothenburg o.d.Tauber Nr.3) Rothenburg o.d.Tauber o.J. [2000]
• Zeitenblicke - Jürgen Scheffler: Der Folterstuhl - Metamorphosen eines Museumsobjektes
• Vortrag von Klaus Graf: Mordgeschichten und Hexenerinnerungen

Some more info on Prof. Johann Phillip Siebenkees :

• http://www.ai.fh-nuernberg.de/Professors/Kuegel/Blumenorden/privgesakt.htm

--mmg 07:31, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

• Thanks a bunch, I've added them to the article (though minus some information since I don't read German). Thanks also for the Johann Philipp Siebenkees article. ··gracefool |☺ 09:26, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Redirect

I think "Iron Maiden" as a query should redirect here. Presently, asking for Iron Maiden leads to an article about a rock band. So people who don't know what an iron maiden actually is, never get to find out (i.e. they may just think it's a made up name for a band)

[edit] Contradiction

The supposed operation opening and closing seem to contradict each other. It starts off by saying that '...On the outside, the maiden appeared harmless and nonthreatening...' and ends by saying that '...like most instruments of torture, to intimidate the prisoner...' RichMac (Talk) 16:10, 29 November 2006 (UTC) If you were to open up such a contraption, it probably would not look as harmless and nonthreatening.

I think I've managed to rephrase it to get round the apparent contradiction. garik 18:50, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

Forgive me, but I did not read through all of the entries here. Did anyone discuss the Iron Maiden that is on display at the Museum of Mideival Torture in Rothenburg, Germay?

[edit] Supposed operation

moved from main article, because there is no evidence and no source for the claimed:

The factual accuracy of this section is disputed. Please see the relevant discussion on the talk page.(March 2008)

Purportedly, the condemned prisoner had to pass through seven rooms with seven doors before his scheduled execution. At the end of a long corridor he found himself looking into the face of an iron wardrobe that vaguely resembled a female form.^{[citation needed]} Although on the outside the maiden appeared harmless and non-threatening, the doors were then opened to reveal spikes of iron on the inside that would torture the victim slowly rather than kill.

The doors of the maiden were shut slowly, so that the very sharp points penetrated a man’s arms, and his legs in several places, along with his belly and chest, bladder, eyes, shoulders, and his buttocks, but not enough to kill him. Allegedly, the spikes were sometimes heated red hot as well to increase pain, or possibly cauterize the puncture wounds as to prolong suffering. Historical experts have theorized that the spikes on the inside of the doors may have been movable. They were thought to have been able to be repositioned and/or relocated depending on the individual requirements of the person’s body and their crime. The overall result would be more or less lethal and mutilating depending upon where the spikes were located.

The object was to inflict extreme pain and punish the victim – and also, like most instruments of torture, to intimidate prisoners before actual use, so that they confessed!

[edit] Contradiction in dates

How can somebody forge the history of something at the end of the 18th century if it wasn't built until the 19th century? Professor Ninja 10:28, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Hellboy Reference?

I added a reference to the appearance of Hecate in the guise of an Iron Maiden in the Hellboy comics, but it appears to have been removed. Does anyone know why it was removed? Thanks MauriceReeves 16:32, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Contradiction

According to Siebenkees' colportage, it was first used on August 14, 1515, to execute a coin forger.

It is often associated with the Middle ages but was not invented until the nineteenth century.

Any comments? Reginmund 23:02, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

Never mind. Someone fixed it. Reginmund 23:44, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

Still contradicts itself. --68.44.106.132 (talk) 02:59, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] One found in Iraq

I edited the information about the one found in Uday hussein's property. It wasn't found by US troops, and it wasn't found in a soccer field. Deathtalon 18:28, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Contested move request

The following request to move a page has been added to Wikipedia:Requested moves as an uncontroversial move, but this has been contested by one or more people. Any discussion on the issue should continue here. If a full request is not lodged within five days of this request being contested, the request will be removed from WP:RM. —Stemonitis 06:44, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

• Iron maiden (torture device) → Iron maiden —(Discuss)— the only usage that is not a proper noun —Reginmund 20:22, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
  • Hardly uncontroversial. Iron maiden could justifiably redirect to either Iron Maiden or Iron maiden (disambiguation). PC78 21:29, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
• Like I said, it is the only usage that is not a proper noun Reginmund 22:02, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
  • And that matters because? Personally I would rather have it redirect to Iron Maiden as a {{R from other capitalisation}}. It would be confusing to have seperate articles at Iron Maiden and Iron maiden; the dablink at the top of the bands article should be sufficient. PC78 07:10, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
• I've already been over the issue of why it shouldn't redirect to the band with another Wikipedian. It matters because of this:

It is possible to create two non-redirect pages with the same name but different capitalization. If this arises, a disambiguation link should always be placed at the top of both pages, linking either to a dedicated disambiguation page or to the other article.

• It seems quite stupid to have an improper noun redirect to a proper noun, especially when the improper noun is the only usage here. Reginmund 16:42, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

• I don't see what the problem is with having Iron Maiden redirect to the band and Iron maiden redirect to the device. With both of them having DAB links at the top of their respective pages. If you have both articles at "Iron Maiden" and "Iron maiden" then that would just be confusing, when simple redirects make more sense. ≈ Maurauth ^(Ravenor) 17:50, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

• What seems silly especially is that the apparatus is at (torture device) but the band isn't at (band). I don't see the problem of moving it when DAB links are available. Reginmund 19:53, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

• I expect that is due to the first article titled Iron Maiden was written about the band, before an article was written about the device, when wiki was just starting out. 86.6.17.37 01:12, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Requested move

[edit] Trivia

Sorry, but is there any real point keeping the endless list of trivia about places where an iron maiden has come up in popular culture? ≈ Maurauth ^(Ravenor) 17:18, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

• Of course there is. Please see WP:LIST. The "in popular culture section" is not a trivia section. Reginmund 23:57, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

• The popular culture section seems to be a trivia section, and this is not a WP:LIST. Perhaps that crufty list should be spun off into its own List article. -- JHunterJ (talk) 12:53, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

• Rather sort it than get rid of it. There are plenty of popular culture references that deserve mention. Trivia are just minor details about the device itself.Reginmund (talk) 01:04, 14 January 2008 (UTC)