Talk:Iron Fist (comics)

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Contents

[edit] The Thing (of Iron)

You can't have an Iron Fist article without mentioning "like unto a thing of iron".

Who took it off? And why?

[edit] Daredevil

There is no proof at present that Iron Fist is Daredevil.

It was removed from the Daredevil site so shall be removed from here, unless of course you would like to show some proof?

You have put this back without proof? Are you some high and mighty god? Though I haven't deleted because of Cable/Deadpool 30, it is still only speculation. I do hope it is Iron Fist though... - 88.106.226.168

Read Daredevil #87, out this week. --khaosworks (talk • contribs) 13:35, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

Cheers bud, good issue. I edited it because it was put on there a little early; but that issue confirmed it. Iron Fist! - 88.106.192.46

[edit] The cover gallery

The cover gallery needs to go, immediately. It fails WP:FUC #3 and #8, and also WP:NOT. We don't need the covers to explain what happens in these issues (FUC #3; in this case, zero images suffices as well as one), these images aren't necessary and often aren't useful for illustrating the events in the corresponding issues (FUC #8), and Wikipedia isn't for galleries of images (WP:NOT).

It wouldn't be a problem if some of these images were used at the corresponding places in the body of the article, but a gallery of fair-use images generally isn't kosher. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 13:52, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

Just to note that fair use does not magically become more legitimate just because the pictures are used in the "corresponding places". It's just as strong or as weak if it's elsewhere on the same page. If the position is that it's okay because it's talked about in the article, it really doesn't matter where the picture is as long as it's somewhere on the same page (then it becomes about aesthetics, not fair use). Conversely, if it isn't okay, then it doesn't matter where it is because it's not going to be fair use. --khaosworks (talk • contribs) 22:46, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

Disagree. The policy states that if one image suffices. The word suffices if open and left to interpetation. Thanks for your opionion but I think that key covers is pertinent to the article. The is ample justification and fair use rationale in each of the images.FrankWilliams 13:58, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

This is a copyright issue, and I strongly suggest we wait for discussion at the comics Wikiproject before you revert the gallery back into the article. (I will shortly start a new topic on talk, there.) I'm almost certain that this issue has already been discussed before. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 14:01, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

There is a fair use rationale. You are being too stringent. All images on this encylcopedia that are NOT public domain could be viewed as copyright infringement. That is why there is fair use rational. 138.162.0.45 14:03, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

I liked the gallery, and it didn't seem to take up much space. --Basique 14:09, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
It's not a matter of fair-use rationale or taking up space. This is a gallery of fair-use images, which is generally disallowed, as failing WP:FUC #3 and #8, and WP:NOT. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 14:11, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

You use the word general (which means not necessarily all the time). I agree with user Basique the gallery doesn't take up that much space and it's at the end of the article.FrankWilliams 14:16, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

No, I used the word "generally" to mean "in general," meaning that these rules apply to all cases. "It doesn't take up much space" and "it's at the end of the article" doesn't solve the problem that this article violates those rules. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 14:22, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

The rules themselves are use vague words and are open to interpetation. Your interpetation of the rules seems rather strict and narrow.FrankWilliams 14:30, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

Intentionally so. The fair-use rules need to be construed narrowly; to do otherwise damages the ability to republish Wikipedia content. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 14:33, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

This is your opionion and your entitled to it but you are seriously diminishing the quality of content in articles by having such a narrow minded view of your interpetation of the rules.FrankWilliams 14:36, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

As may be, allowing galleries such as this seriously diminishes the ability of others to republish Wikipedia content. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 14:43, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

You keep changing your rationale. So now your suggesting that the quality of an article should somehow be dependent on "the ability of others to republish Wikipedia content" ?? This is absurd.FrankWilliams 14:48, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

Galleries of fair-use images aren't allowed per WP:FUC because allowing them would make it harder to republish Wikipedia content. (That's part of the "free" in "Wikipedia: the free encyclopedia.") I've been consistent on this point. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 14:55, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

I've read through the WP:FUC and there is no mention of galleries. You seem to be interpeting the policies to your own advantage and viewpoints again.FrankWilliams 15:02, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

Any image that's not subject of significant discussion within the text needs to go. As it stands, the images serve a decorative purpose. Combination 15:26, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

Ok, I'll expand the paragraph so it covers the gallery thus making it a "significant" part of the discussion.138.162.5.7 17:16, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

I added a whole paragraph to the gallery under Key Comicbook Covers to tie the article to the gallery per suggestions.FrankWilliams 23:54, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

Seriously, the cover gallery still fails WP:FUC and WP:NOT. Use of so many images goes beyond fair use and treads copyright violation. Tagging a paragraph at the end to try to justify and address WP:FUC #8 it doesn't change the fact that Marvel owns those images and using so many violates WP:FUC #3: Keep use of copyright images to a minimum. Inserting a cover gallery is not keeping their use to a minimum; avoid using multiple images unnecessarily. Doczilla 08:51, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

There a tons of marvel pages that have more than 8 images. Why don't those fail?? Why are folks hung up on the fact that the images are in a table rather than spread around like the other articles??FrankWilliams 15:21, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

Those pages also probably need a lot fewer images. Fair-use images should only be used when they are absolutely necessary to illustrate the text; if you're adding text to justify a bunch of copyvio images, you're working backwards. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 15:33, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

Well you better start deleting a whole truck full because I've been checking the other marvel pages and there more than you realize. Also, you are missing the point. The Iron Fist character is such an unknown character that having key issues is necessary for those not initiated in the character (many many more than say X-Men, Avengers, Spiderman, etc.) No one is working backwards the intent of the images was always the same. The verbiage was added per suggestions of the talk pages which I happen to agree with.FrankWilliams 15:44, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

Describing the key issues is important. You should do that. You don't, however, need a massive gallery of copyrighted images to describe the key issues.

8 images is hardly massive, it's not like there's 20 or 30 which would be excessive. Why is your opion on the number more valid than anyone else's??FrankWilliams 16:00, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

As for the other articles, I've been removing unnecessary fair-use whenever I find it. It's just that it's a thankless job and there's so much to do. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 15:50, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

Same questions applies why you determing what is ununnecessary?? You're not even giving the discussion pages a chance if read them folks seem to be divided on the issue.FrankWilliams 16:00, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

In the event that there is controversy, this needs to err on the side of exclusion. Worst-case, these are copyvio, best-case they can be replaced harmlessly. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 16:18, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

Amen. As to the issue of why not give the discussion a change before deleting: When in doubt about what is essentially a legal issue, err on the side of caution. Doczilla 23:54, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Enough

This gallery is still completely unnecessary. While some of these images may be useful to illustrate specific points made in this article, the gallery as whole isn't illustrating anything; it's just lending pretty pictures to a discussion of various Iron Fist firsts. There's no need to have a dozen images illustrating this article. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 20:25, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

The use of fair use image galleries violates our policies on fair use and our goal of making a freely redistributable encyclopedia. Anyone re-adding the gallery may be blocked. --Cyde Weys 20:35, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

There seems to be some misconception that this is a content issue. It's not. This article has more fair-use images than it absolutely needs. When this happens, the extras need to be removed, and they need to be removed immediately. While it's not strictly copyright violation, each fair-use image impairs the ability of others to redistribute Wikipedia, which is a core part of the "free" in "Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia". - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 20:40, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

Incidentally, the deletion of the image in the infobox is unrelated; it was deleted because it was unsourced. It will be deleted as a repost of deleted content if it is reuploaded again without a source, but with a source it's kosher. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 20:40, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Ongoing series

Added that he will be starring in new ongoing in November, written by Brubaker and Matt Fraction. Just a minor edit, coupled it with the Doctor Strange tidbit. (Spike412 13:51, 5 August 2006 (UTC))

[edit] Cleanup tags

I'd like more specific complaints to be raised here regarding this. The in-universe perspective complaint is not invalid, but the problem is that there doesn't seem to be much other available information on the publication history and conceptual history aside from what is already mentioned in the lead paragraph. The presence of the tag makes it sound as if it's a bad article or written badly; which is isn't. It just doesn't have the information that isn't available to be had.

Unless someone raises specific complaints here in the next few days, I'll remove the tags. --khaosworks (talk • contribs) 12:52, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

It's not a content problem so much as a style problem. Take, for example, Iron Fist's origin...

“ Daniel Rand was the son of wealthy American businessman Wendell Rand, an entrepreneur who had appeared out of nowhere with a large sum of money and over the course of ten years built up Rand-Meachum Incorporated with his business partner Harold Meachum. His mother Heather Duncan Rand had been a New York society belle before she met and married Daniel's father. Wendell was obsessed with finding the mystical city of K'un L'un, high on the mountain of the same name which according to legend was the dwelling place of the immortals of China and the basis of other legendary and immortal cities like Shangri-La. When Daniel was 9, Wendell organized an expedition to seek K'un L'un, taking Heather and their son, with Harold Meachum also following. ”

Where did this come from? Has any of it been retconned? How could I ever verify any of this?

You may want to read WP:WAF for a bit more on the style problems in this article; nearly all of it is the substantially similar to the first, "don't do this" set of examples, instead of the second, "do it like this" set. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 15:32, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

Ah, at least this is something specific we can work with and address. --khaosworks (talk • contribs) 15:49, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Relevance

I'd like to see some commentary on the importance of the book within the industry. Wasn't this the first pairing of Claremont & Byrne on a character book (rather than a "gallery" book like MP, where they'd intro Fist)? IF was a much more traditional superhero book than MOKF; Moench's Shang was often philosophical to the point of obscurity, & matters ended up unresolved. It had a LeCarré flavor, "the great game" never resolved (as Keegan puts it, for an intelligence operator, the best thing that can happen is nothing: war doesn't start, the world doesn't end, the game goes on). Anybody? Trekphiler 19:42, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

Or not. I added this:
"Iron Fist was the first pairing of Claremont & Byrne, beginning with Marvel Premiere 24 and 25, Fist's last two appearances before going on to his own book.
"IF was a much more traditional superhero book than MOKF; Moench's Shang had a LeCarré flavor, where matters often ended up unresolved as "the great game" continued. Where IF was straightforward, MOKF could be philosophical to the point of obscurity. Moench seemed to aspire to a literary level, much as Alan Moore would with Watchmen, where Claremont's scripts were much more accessible.
"It seems they were both ahead of the curve. A decade later, amid the success of "Walker, Texas Ranger" and "Buffy the Vampire Slayer", both heavily reliant on martial arts, they might have succeeded in achieving enduring popularity."

I read every ish Fist appeared in back in the day, & a few ish of MOKF; I'd say it's an accurate assessment. Disagree? Trekphiler 20:17, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

I don't disagree, but I think it falls foul of "no original research". --khaosworks (talk • contribs) 01:48, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Please do not add abbreviations to the article.

Stop abbreviating Iron Fist to IF. This is an encyclopedia. This is particularly bizarre since some of them are wikilinks which means you are putting in more work to make thge abbreviations. Try using cut and paste. --Chris Griswold (☎☓) 06:54, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Can't get image to work

I put an excellent shot of Iron Fist there, but I can't get it to work. Can we all stop arguing and just fix the page already, please? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Douglasdanger (talk • contribs) 23:39, 17 October 2006

[edit] Image Gallery

I have re-removed the cover image gallery. There is no need for them to be distrubitued through the article, as they all cover a relatively short period of time in the 1970's, and could not all fit into the publication history, nor biography. There are plenty of fan sites out there for cover galleries. That's not Wikipedia's purpose. Further, all the information about sales profiles int he 1970's are unsourced, as it the 'chop socky' context, which is also mildly racist, and should probably referred to as the 'rapid rise in martial arts popularity' or at least te 'kung fu' title, which is still how some stores set that category on their shelves. It is WP:OR to decide why the team ups with spiderman are notable. They might be more appropriate in an article about the Iron Fist filme, should it ever get traction and get off the ground, but not here, not without citations that indicate the crossovers affected his popularity or something. ThuranX 01:37, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

Where to begin?? First of all Chop Socky is NOT racist mildly or otherwise. The word is a composite of Chop (as in karate chop; a strike with the edge of your hand) and socky ( as in "I'm going to give you a sock"; as in a punch with your fist). Thus, "chops" and "punches" appropriate for "martial arts" themes.
As for sales information this a "truism". The fact that there were only 15 issues is a clear indication that popularity and thus sales were not high. Also the fact that the character had to be combined with another Marvel character "Powerman" was also an indication. Not everything has to have an exact cite and extrapolations are possible. Plenty of wiki articles don't have exact cites or encyclopedias for that matter.
The team-ups with spiderman were notable because Iron Fist didn't really fight crime with anyone until he joined up with Luke Cage. Spiderman being an extremely popular character at the time (and still is) gave notoriety to Iron Fist, thus it deserves mention. Waiting until some film comes out that is "just" getting into the character smells like articles should wait until "popularity" is achieved, not right IMHO.
As for the covers: As I said in the notes; first, art gallery but the article talks about each and every cover. Thus there is a link between the article body and the image. That fact that they are in a table is a stylistic choice. It was made as a way of centralizing the covers in one area rather then dispersing them throughout the article as many other articles do. It maybe your opinion that this is not the best way to proceed but,:

A. It's just your opinion B. No wiki policy that says "you can't do that" (Although there is one that says keep images to a minimum if possible). Key word there is possible; since there is mention of the covers they are pertinent.

There are tons of other articles (especially Marvel ones) with many images in them and the fact that they are not in a table should not matter at all. Therefore I'm including the covers back in for all of these reasons. Respectfully: FrankWilliams 11:31, 4 May 2007 (UTC)
(First, I refactored your comments, please use colons to indent.) Actually, your 'derivations' for Chop Socky aren't factual. It's racism of the 'school of ignorance', not unlike Chop Suey, which never was a real chinese dish, but named in an attempt to sound foreign. Second, numerous decisions can lend to a title shutting down. Three which come to mind are: New editorial direction, foresight into the loss of market, and general company economics requiring a larger scaleback. Please find citations. Second, characters 'team-up' all the time. The use of flagship characters to aide in the introduction and support of lesser characters is also commonplace. As for the covers, only TWO were in use before you made the gallery, Marvel Premiere 15, and the first PM/IF. They were fine where they were, in the relevant sections of the article. The gallery constitutes an unfair use of images. This afternoon, I'll submit this to the appropriate content dispute pages for review. Please leave the page as is until then. I'll write it up with diffs and policy cites then. Thank you. ThuranX 11:56, 4 May 2007 (UTC)
  • No you are wrong with regards to the origins of "Chop Socky". My statement stands.
  • You are correct there are numerous reasons, but there were poor sales.
  • Iron Fist didn't team up all the time; that's the point.
  • The covers (again) are in support of the added material in the article.

FrankWilliams 12:04, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Request for Comment

Listed here:Wikipedia:Requests_for_comment/Art,_architecture,_literature_and_media

To start, here is the article as it stood before the content dispute [1]. Here is the page after FrankWilliams edits[2], and the diff[3]. One editor tried rewriting the relevant paragraph, [4]. I then reverted the new content out wholesale, using an edit summary to give an explanation of my reasons[5]. It was RV'd by FrankWilliams [6]. I Re-RV'd [7], and went to the talk page, where I tried in depth to explain the situation as I saw it. FrankWilliams Re-RV'd the content back in, [8], and replied at talk. I took it out, and put on talk that I'd be bringing it to RfC. I asked that in the meantime he stop editing it further, and wait until we got some comments. instead, he insisted I was 'wrong', [9], and that it would go back in. I find it frustrating that much of my words in the Talk explaining WHY it should be removed is being thrown into the article, "The use of flagship characters to aide in the introduction and support of lesser characters is also commonplace." I said it here[10], and he added it here [11]. I didn't add it to the article because although it's plain sense to those of us who read comics over the years, and makes business sense to anyone who heard it, I can't support it as the reasoning used by Marvel in the Iron Fist cases. His use of my words in this way comes off as patronizing, and hostile. Can we get some comments from disinterested persons? ThuranX 22:26, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

I happened across the page and removed the images because I saw them as excessive. They are, especially with the specter of Fair Use roaming about. A bunch of covers with Iron Fist and some irrelevant characters does not tell me anything that the text doesn't. They are purely decorative and illustrate nothing. ' 21:34, 8 May 2007 (UTC)
The use of images purely for decoration is clearly prohibited by the WikiProject Comics guideline on copyright. Taking a look at the image files, the uploader has not even attempted to write a fair use justification for them. I think it's pretty clear that they do not meet the fair use standard. As for the argument that some things just don't need to be cited, that doesn't jibe with WP:V. --GentlemanGhost 15:45, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] MC2 and Dragon Fist

Shouldn't we put up something about Fist in MC2 continuity or something about Dragon Fist? I was really surprised tosee that this had been overlooked. --65.188.7.188 18:55, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

I'm not. No one bothered to add it, so it's not there. Happens all the time. If you feel it's important, and can support your edit with citation, add it. ThuranX 22:20, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Fair use rationale for Image:MP-15.jpg

Image:MP-15.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.

BetacommandBot 09:10, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Fair use rationale for Image:Newironfist.jpg

Image:Newironfist.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.

BetacommandBot 10:18, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Vandalism

This page has been vandalized. Especially the "background" section. I don't know enough about Iron Fist to fix it but I thought I'd mention it.

2/20/08

YOu can use the history tab to examine the differences between edits, find the most recent non-vandalized version, and edit that, and just save it, and that will restore a non-vandalized version. ThuranX (talk) 12:37, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Fraction and Brubaker leave with #16

So says Newsarama - [12] - does this deserve a mention in the publication history, given that they were the creative team behind the success of the relaunch? --81.151.218.14 (talk) 19:13, 7 April 2008 (UTC)