Talk:Iron Curtain

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I dont really get what they are saying about the Iron curtain. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 168.184.251.121 (talk) 17:12, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

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Section 1.3 bears the following text: "The Iron Curtain was basically a wall divideing truth from lies" This is a political statement that should not be found on an encyclopedia article. An article about the Iron Curtain per se should not discuss the virtues of Capitalism and Communism, and certainly not express an opinion about those political systems.

[edit] How about a list?

I'd like to suggest a straightforward list of the countries behind the curtain, for those of us who don't have European geography 1949-1990 memorized. I don't find the name Romania anywhere on the page for instance. I know of countries are mentioned individually throughout the article. It would be ideal for the names to be added to the graphic, but barring that, a quick listing (perhaps distinguishing between Soviet client states and actual Soviet republics) of the countries behind the curtain would be helpful, to me at least. One could argue that the article is about the border itself, not which countries were "in front of" or "behind," but, don't most people associate the curtain with the states behind it? Isn't that the real importance of the curtain? Thanks for considering.

[edit] edits

Removed this text:

During this period, Western Europe was under the political control and/or influence of the Western democracies (particularly Great Britain, France, and the United States). Eastern Europe was under the political control and/or influence of the Soviet Union.

The above sentences create a moral equivalence between the US and the USSR which is misleading at best. The Iron Curtain kept out information from the free world, while keeping in its citizens who might want to leave.

There is no such thing as "the free world". I don't know what Wikipedia policy is now; but it looks like this page is going to have to require a "contention" tag, or whatever it's called, or whatever the Wikipedia policy is now on these matters.

Pazouzou 07:45, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

From an anonymous contributor (moved from article): "Note: Yugoslavia did not lie under the Soviet sphere or Iron Curtain. Get the facts straight." -- Notheruser 18:02 16 Jun 2003 (UTC)

His/her note was in fact correct. The same thing is in the article communist state. See Informbiro. At least another three great capital cities are missing: Sarajevo, Zagreb, and Ljubljana, but they were in former Yugoslavia, so ... Best regards. --XJamRastafire 01:18 18 Jun 2003 (UTC)

[edit] "Behind the I. C."

Under the image: "Countries behind the Iron Curtain are shaded red". This is an unilateral view from West, clear NPOV violation in my opinion. 217.198.224.13 19:25, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

Actuallyu the shaded red areas are the big dogs!!!!

[edit] Iron Curtain translations

Are the translations in the intro really needed? What purpose do they serve? Unless someone comes up with a reason, i will delete it.Thmars10 03:25, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

I,Thmars10 (not logged in) deleted them.

[edit] Who coined the phrase? Elisabeth of the Belgians?

The cited page claims that what I said was true, but I seriously doubt its veracity...not only do they have different answers, but this page on the same website claims that it was somebody else who first coined the term. If somebody else can find a source...that would be great. -[[User:Frazzydee|Frazzydee|✍]] 02:55, 26 Sep 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Who coined the phrase "Iron Curtain"?

To: Frazzydee

I got my information from the Dutch version of this wiki, but I've also seen the same answer on the same website where you've directed us to look: http://www.theanswerbank.co.uk/Answered/Question1990-6.asp?Page=1 But I agree, we always need to be critical about it!!

Winston Churchill popularised the term, but he wasn't the first to use it. Goebbels used it in Feb 1945 in Das Reich. Ethel Snowdon used it in 1920, refering to Russia. In 1914, Queen Elisabeth of Belgium spoke of an iron curtain between her and the Germans. It was also used in the Earl of Munster's journal in 1819. woolley Thurs 22/03/01

In fact, http://users.tinyonline.co.uk/gswithenbank/sayingsi.htm states that: The invention of this graphic expression, which used to be applied to the boundry between western European countries and communist eastern Europe, is usually credited to the Russianphilosopher Vasily Rozanov, who in 1918 wrote that 'an iron curtain is descending on Russian history' following the 1917 revolution. I have not been able to confirm that, but it would seem fitting to Rozanov's overall beliefs. On the contrary, I have not been able to confirm the quote of Elisabeth of Belgium anywhere else. Moreover, some sources find the Earl of Munster being the first one to use the term. I think it is necessary to reformulate the whole paragraph in order to make it more stringent and incorporate all the different possibilities. timo 08:38, 16 Oct 2004 (UTC)

In fact, the german Wikipedia sais it was Vasily Rozanov who invented the phrase "Iron Curtain", but I absolutely don't know who used it first. But I think it wasn't Churchill. 83.76.227.110 14:20, 11 September 2005 (UTC)

The first time I saw the term "Iron Curtain" was in "The Food of the Gods" by H. G. Wells (1904). It appears first in Book III, Chapter 4, Section 1, the penultimate paragraph. And again in Book III, Chapter 4, Section 3, the first paragraph. Hope this helps. Geoler 03:18, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

book online here: [1]. Also, a broad summary of the origin here [2] -- Steve Hart 22:15, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Linguistic incertainty

Is the expression régime used in the first paragraph not POV? In German, Regime hs an unpleasant taste to it, but as I'm not a native speaker, I didn't want change it before comments. I would suggest government instead. timo 08:44, 16 Oct 2004 (UTC)

I see that others have agreed on the issue already and taken care of it. timo 12:56, 10 Dec 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Revision Needed

This article needs more revision and cleanup. --Nzo 23:35, Jan 17, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Norwegian?

Is there any reason to include the Norwegian term for Iron Curtain in the opening paragraph? -- Sandius 14:33, 24 November 2005 (UTC)

Is there any reason to include any translation there at all? There are interwikis for that. --frin 21:38, 18 December 2005 (UTC)

I think so; should we remove these translations then? After all, the article states that it's a Western term. -- Sandius 20:33, 29 December 2005 (UTC)

1) as far as i know, in 1980-s Poland fallen out of Soviet Influence as well. While nominally be a communist country and member of Warsaw Pact, it had it's internal independent politics and was ready for direct war with Soviet Union.

2) I wonder, what "Velvet Curtain" mean in Jethro Tull's song "Said She Was A Dancer". Only part of the hat and nothing more ?

[edit] Image includes Yugoslavia and Albania as behind Iron Curtain

...which I believe is incorrect. Certainly they were not Soviet allies. See for example the map on this page: [3] The article isn't clear on it, but suggests they were not "behind" it. Should probably be made clear one way or the other, either fixing the image to exclude them, or re-wording the article to explain why they are included? (I do not know enough myself.) -- Blorg 11:06, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

Originally the two countries were in the Soviet Block, but split off some time in the 1950s. Before the split, they ought to be regarded "Eastern" and the Iron Curtain ought to be drawn around them. After the split, it depends on your definition of what the Iron Curtain is supposed to be. If you want it to bee the block barrier, both were "in between", so the iron curtain really didn't exist in most of the Balkans as NATO and Warsaw Pact didn't border each other there (except where Greece & Turkey border Bulgaria). Concerning free movement of civilians, there was a physical barrier on the borders of Hungary and Romania towards Yugoslavia, while Yugoslavians themselves could travel rather freely. Albania however was completely sealed off. Anorak2 08:06, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Iron Curtain between Austria and Hungary

The article says:

Elsewhere, the border defences between west and east were much lighter. The border between Hungary and neutral Austria, for instance, was marked by a simple chain link fence which was easily removed when it became the first part of the Iron Curtain to be dismantled in 1989.

I grew up in Hungary and I remember a few trips we did to the sub-Alps mountains near the Austrian border with my parents. People (turists) not having a residence near the border had to obtain a special permit to enter the "border area", and as far as I remember the fence itself was a quite impressive double fence with barbed wire and a sand strip in between (to track footprints) and watchtowers. It was certainly not a 'simple chain link fence' -- at least in those areas I have been to.

[edit] =

I also support this comment. As a Hungarian grown up in the Austria-Hungary border zone, must tell that the defences were absolutely not "lighter". First of all, as commented above, the traveling into the vicinity of the border was heavily controlled and limited.

First stage included traffic control by border guard and police force. Cars, coaches, trains were systematically halted and travelers were identified and questioned. Even traveling to a town/city in the 15 kilometer (distance from the) border zone was allowed only for local residents or people equipped with special permissions issued earlier by authorities.

Second stage was the control of the 5 and 2 kilometer zones. As far as I know, only local residents were allowed to pass in there. Pedestrian and vehicle traffic was even heavier monitored in this area.

(So an average Hungarian simply could not "travel" to the border, even not get near to the border fortifications! Note that it was never named as Iron Curtain locally. Authorities called it "technical lock".)

Third stage was the Iron Curtain which began usually at 1-2 kilometers from the actual, real state border. Important NOTE: every communist country with border to the Western world took great care NOT to install any border fortification on the real border. They always build them on their own area. Reason for it was dual:

(a) if any escape event occured and the escapee managed to get thru the technical obstacles, s/he was still standing on home soil so arrest measures could be still performed (escapees several times thought -- mistakenly -- that after the last obstacle they are "over" in the free world. This misbelief lead to sad consequences.

(b) if any fortifications were installed right on the border, it could (and presumably would) be dismantled from the Western side (by Western border police or volunteers). Since the fortifications stood on the Communist area, nothing could be done from and by the West.

Arriving to the Iron Curtain one could first often see a vast open land area, clear from trees, bushes etc. Then came the "internal" metal fence (chain link): concrete poles with metal wires and usually barbed wire on top. The metal wires were part of an electrical alarm system: when cut thru or even disturbed, alarm signals went off at the border guard barracks, and troops were sent to the place of breakthru.

Behind the fence, there was a several meters wide strip of soft, plowed soil. Called "track strip", it made possible for border guards to detect the footprints. It was also "useful" to slow down escaping vehicles since it was too soft and deep for even allroad wheels. For two periods of time (1949-1955 and 1957-1965) the track strip was fortified with land mines (in the second period there were more than 1 million mines along the Western border) but arount the mid-70s the mines were removed forever.

There were guard observation towers as well, along the strip and regular patrols (foot, horseback, car, including K-9 units).

At the Western edge of the strip there was usually another (second, "external") metal fence, as a last obstacle, then came a void area, runnning often 500-800 meters wide, to the real border line.

The real border was not featuring any fence. It was merely a sparse line of border-marking stones (usually white slabs, about half meter tall), marking the very reference points. But nobody was allowed just to visit the border. Even the guards approached it only on special patrol or other official duty (eg. maintenance) (and they watched each other as well).

For those who speaks Hungarian, there is a short but good reference: Legendák nyomában: a vasfüggöny

I don't quite know how to do this but try to remember i might be a bit clumsy in my wiki ettiquette. THis article has huge POV issues. The west is democratic while the east is communistic. To compare the political banner of a country (i.e Democracy) with the economical intentions of another (i.e communism rather than socialism) is at best an ignorant comparison, yet it is more likely a continuation, a proliferation of the propagandistic libel of capitalism over popular demonstrations of power and the attempts of third world nations at achieving sovereignty and progress. Furthermore there is a particular subjectivity to frases such as "Indeed the Central European states to the east of the Curtain were frequently regarded as being part of Eastern Europe, rather than Central Europe", i ask: regarded by whom? I came here to learn a little and i find nothing but unsustantiated libel. While i do not know much about the subject, coming here to a framework of reference for further study was not only futile but rather upsetting. Please set you POV's straight, the people of the world are tired of tolerating the intellectual vandalism of the US intelligentsia over our dear history of popular sttruggles. I can only conclude that the reality of the Prague invasion is so similar to that of VietNam, and the war at home, that it is necessary to demonize and manipulate its meaning (whatever it may be, i don't know yet) to avoid the obvious parallels of systematized violence as applied on dissenting colonies (Prague = Vietnam) and on domestic resistance (The destruction of the democratics movements of Black Power, the PEace Movement and the New LEft through the use of a secret police). If the Hoover seems better than Stalin, you have been watching too much cold war propaganda. Kobaincito 03/15/06 ... by the way, the secret police is the FBI, i'm sure a few will miss it. check out COINTELPRO.

[edit] Yugoslavia

Yugoslavia (and Albania) do not belong under the actual iron curtain. Albania was corrupt on the same level as the Soviets, since it closed down all of its borders. However, Yugoslavia made itself isolated fromt he Soviets. In 1945 Josip Broz Tito told the Russians to get out of Belgrade, since he knew that the Russians would have made Yugoslavia into the Warsaw Pact. The Warsaw Pact is the basis for the Iron Curtain. All of the Warsaw Pact countries were corrupt, since Russia did not invest in them as much as it did toward itself. Yugoslavia had a much more open economy compared to any other Communist state in Europe at the time.

These maps show Yugoslavia on a bigger specturm (Albanian economy corrupt/closed borders until the 1970s/paranoid leader of Albania):

--User:Kseferovic 01:03, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

Free movement of civilians is another criteria, see my other comment further above. Anorak2 08:07, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Summary

So basically the Iron Curtian is about how europe was dived during the Cold War

[edit] Wrong placing of the Iron Curtain

The current phrasing under the map, and the map itself, are totally wrong. Yugoslavia didn't isolate itself from the Soviet Union for long, until 1955-60, at the most. Instead, it opened itself up to both the east and the west, while belonging to neither bloc. It was (unfortunately IMO) one of the main countries in the Non-aligned movement. Placing the Iron Curtain between Yugoslavia, and Italy and Austria, is wholly factually incorrect, as Yugoslavs could freely cross that border. --estavisti 11:40, 9 April 2006 (UTC)

Everything is fixed Kseferovic 04:44, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

but churchill's original speech said that Belgrade was behind the iron curtain --Astrokey44 05:03, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

what about an iron curtain in poular culture section? in C&C Red Alert there was a structure you could build which let you use an iron curtain, it was basically an impeneterable shield, in C&C red alert theres soviets and allies etc etc.. i think its defiently a reference.

Churchill's speech also said that Vienna was behind the iron curtain. And he said it ran from Stettin (on the eastern side) to Trieste (now on the western side). Churchill was very wise but a few of his details were not quite correct. Xanucia 19:42, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

He made the speech in 1946, obviously he couldn't foresee what would happen later. At that time Vienna was a four-power city located inside the Soviet zone of Austria, similar to Berlin, therefore he assumed it to be "East". He couldn't know then that Austria would remain as one and get rid of the Soviets some time ahead. OTOH he apparently assumed all of Germany to become "West" (apparently ignoring the fact that it had a Soviet zone already, or perhaps in hope that all of Germany would remain "West" anyway), thus he named Stettin which is near the Polish-German border. Trieste is near the Italian-Yugoslav border, so he apparently assumed Yugoslavia to be "East", which it did indeed become (The fact that it would "rebel" against the Soviets in years to come was unknown in 1946). So for today's readers his geography is confusing, but for the 1946 perspective it makes sense. Anorak2 08:41, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Greece

What about Greece? What were the border defences like separating it from Bulgaria? Brutannica 06:07, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Wildlife corridor

I'm interested in that "wildlife corridor." What happened to it? Brutannica 06:07, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Analogous terms

In South Africa, the term "Boerewors Curtain" has been humorously applied to describe a supposed divide between political (or moral) liberals and (ultra)conservatives. If one is from the other side of the "Boerewors Curtain", the implication is that the person is at best conservative and at worst narrow-minded. "Boerewors" (literally, "Farmer's sausage") is a traditional food usually cooked over coals at a "braaivleis" (barbeque) and associated particularly with white Afrikaans-speaking people (or "Boere" - farmers). Elio1 10:35, 5 March 2007 (UTC) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Elio1 (talk • contribs) 10:34, 5 March 2007 (UTC).

[edit] "Sinews of peace"

Why would churchill possibly include vienna in hes speach as one of the cities within the sphere of soviet influence behind the iron curtain???

When was the speech made? In the first years after WWII Austria was also divided into occupation zones, one of them being Soviet. This could have something to do with it, I suppose. Deuar 18:02, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Coinage of the name "Iron Courtain"

If it was Joseph Goebbels who mentioned it first, why do we attribute it to a police officer that borrowed it? Doesn't make sense. How about putting a link to that brilliant and accurate quote in wikiquote? --MrBlonde 16:33, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Introduction

The introduction fails to mention the actual route followed by the Iron Curtain. This may seem obvious to many, but a good intro really needs to spell things out, for the sake of clarity if nothing else. Jamrifis 14:25, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Allied Occupation of Europe

Please stop putting this category here, or explain the reasons with sources. Thank you. Suva 14:06, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Photo of an iron curtain

I'd like a photograph of an actual theatre iron curtain. --84.20.17.84 12:41, 9 August 2007 (U

[edit] Important - 4th color(dark blue) on the map (without explanation)

What's the meaning of the 4th color(dark blue) on the map? It's neither mentioned, nor explained in the article. The dark blue spot contains the following countries (according to current(not as of 1946!) European map): Republic of Macedonia, Montenegro, Serbia, Bosnia and Herzegovina, Croatia, Slovenia,San Marino Stypex (talk) 02:26, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] popular references?

how about a part with popular culture references to the iron curtain? for example, in the game command and conquer retaliation, the Soviet team has an "iron curtain" super-weapon, which is essentially a shield protecting their structures from damage.

there are thousands of popular cultural references to the term. I think a case would have to be made that any cultural reference is significant in a larger way. I don't think that naming a fictional, fantastic super-weapon aftr it is a notable mention. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 23:55, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Huh?

Back in the 1910's, advertising posters in the bronx train system for Radio Free Europe had photographs of electrified barbed wire fences that, while not identified specifically as part of the iron curtain, implied that it was the iron curtain.

What does that mean? Radio Free Europe didn't exist until 1949, so do we have evidence of time traveling here, or am I just very confused (well, I am, but that's not the point :P ) - Dylansmrjones (talk) 12:35, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

Marked it as "dubious". It must have been 1950' or 60'es - or possibly even later. I will remove that part-section in 10 days, unless somebody knows the exact decade.Dylansmrjones (talk) 01:56, 24 January 2008 (UTC)