Talk:Iroh

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Iroh has had a peer review by Wikipedia editors which is now archived. It may contain ideas you can use to improve this article.

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Iroh was a good article nominee, but did not meet the good article criteria at the time. There are suggestions below for improving the article. Once these are addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake. Reviewed version: March 31, 2008

Contents 1 Plot Summary Trimming 2 Iroh's Neutrality 3 Firebending Master 4 Picture 5 Iroh's Flirting 6 Spirit World? 7 Speculation 8 Haircut 9 Secret Connections 10 Voice Change 11 Requested move 11.1 Survey 11.2 Discussion 12 Abilties 13 Suggestion for a Section 14 June in Relationships section 15 Mako in season 2? 16 Fair use rationale for Image:Iroh as DragonIntotheWest.jpg 17 Iroh's feelings about the war 18 Relationships 19 GA

[edit] Plot Summary Trimming

We seriously need to trim the plot summary. While not a play by play analysis of every episode, it is still far too long. I plan to do it myself. We need it to be more like Zuko's summary currently is. SkepticBanner (talk) 05:45, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

Furthermore, I think it should be possible to avoid mentioning the bit about the dragons in every paragraph.129.1.33.51 (talk) 20:48, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Iroh's Neutrality

"Upon reaching the North Pole, Iroh forsakes his hope of ever returning home when he attacks Admiral Zhao in an attempt to save the Spirit of the Moon, thus assisting the Avatar and the Northern Water Tribe in repelling the Fire Nation invasion."

I would change this. My perspective of Iroh is that he is more neutral to the war and only intervenes when it comes to protecting the spiritual entities in the world. Entities that would bring chaos if they were destroyed, such as the Avatar.

Also, he did not really help the Water Tride repel the invasion. He acted as an observer yet protector of the spirits.GnothiChristos 08:21, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Firebending Master

Iroh has actually never been referred to as a firebending master. Isn't he just a firebender? I think we need to change it. Calling Iroh a master is like calling Zuko a master. SkepticBanner (talk) 21:48, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

I disagree. Iroh is known as the dragon of the west because of his mastery in firebending, that and his signature move that gave him the name. Also, if he has the aptitude to be able to create a move that will redirect lightning, based on a waterbending concept, I doubt he is anything less than a guru.

In a fight between him and his brother, my money is on Iroh. He is calm and wise which is greater than ambition and recklessness. GnothiChristos 07:18, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

Iroh is known as the Dragon of the West solely because of his firebending style, not skill level. Additionally, Iroh has never actually been referred to as a master. Also, his ability to come up with a technique for redirecting lightning proves he his creative, not a master. Being the Fire Nation's greatest general in all of Fire Nation history is not direct proof he is a master. We can't call Iroh a master for the same reason we can't call Azula a master: While they both demonstrate exceptional skill (Iroh more than Azula), they have never been called masters. SkepticBanner (talk) 20:07, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

I disagree on how Iroh became known as the Dragon of the West. In Book 3, Chapter 13 Zuko states that a person that defeated a dragon would earn the honorary title of Dragon and that Iroh defeated the last of the dragons. The title has nothing to do with mastery, skills, or style. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 158.83.234.194 (talk) 16:09, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Picture

i have a screenshot from season 3; i think that the article's picture should be cahnged to this:

http://i241.photobucket.com/albums/ff55/bigghedd/iroh.jpg —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.244.47.83 (talk) 16:53, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

That is a horrible picture. You can just barely see it. --Ghostexorcist 00:19, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Iroh's Flirting

In the character discription of Iroh, it says that he has only flirted with the fortuneteller Aunt Wu (See "Relationships- June). But hasn't he also flirted with a passport agent in "The Serpent's Pass"? In this episode, when the women would not let him pass, he used his charm on her to make her change her mind (much to the embarrasment of Prince Zuko).

I think he flirted with June (Jun) , the bounty hunter. I'm pretty sure.

Yeah, he did with both. The passaport agent was only to get in Ba Sing Se.

[edit] Spirit World?

When was it actually mentioned that Iroh went to the spirit world? Or is this just pure speculation due to the fact that he's able to see spirits as demonstrated during season 1? Rumpelstiltzkin 11:31, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

In Siege of the North, in response to Iroh's opposition to killing the Moon and Ocean spirits, Zhao responds by saying that he knows how Iroh fears the spirits and that he traveled to the Spirit World, but that it is of little consequence to his plans. Prototime 23:23, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Speculation

Could Iroh be Aangs long lost firebender friend mentioned in chapter 13? He is rather old and it explains why Zuko reminds Aang of his friend.

I don't think so. Aang was in an iceberg for 100 years. I don't think Iroh is that old.

Do we really know that Iroh is Ozai's brother? He could be the brother of Zuko's mother.

In episode seven, when Iroh is captured, the dialog goes, "He's a Fire Nation soldier." "He's no ordinary soldier. This is the Fire Lord's brother, the Dragon of the West. The once great General Iroh. But now, he's our prisoner." Lesoria 13:52, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

Also he always refers to Ozai as his brother (see book 2 episode 1). While this might mean his brother in law, Iroh doesn't seem fond enough of Ozai to adopt this type of fraternal reference. Also in Zuko Alone, Ozai seems to at least have standing to ask Azulon to revoke Iroh's birth right and name him his heir. I.e. the request, awful as it was to Azulon, at least made sense. If Iroh was pushed aside the throne would fall to Ozai by sanguinity. He would not have this standing if he was simply royal by marriage through Ursa, she would probably become Fire Lady (according to a modern theory of sanguinity) and Ozai would be relegated to a consort lacking any such standing to make this request. Also Ozai refers to Azulon as father whereas Ursa calls him Fire Lord, which would be generally considered proper for royalty by marriage as I understand it. --Darkling235 03:18, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Aang's friend was called Kurzon. There's no indication that Iroh ever had another given name, though there is a great deal of speculation that Zuko, Iroh and Kurzon may be related due to the similarity between kurzon's name and zuko's and the fact that Fire Nation names tend to repeat (Azulon, Azula.... Ira, Iroh).

Actually it's Kuzon, not Kurzon. Eban 19:13, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

When is it revealed that Aang's fire nation friend was named Kuzon? And is it of any interest that the name "Kuzon" is almost a rearrangement of the letters in "Zuko", maybe a subtle foreshadow that Zuko and Aang will be friends? -Sean Eberhard 00:58, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

In The Blue Spirit, when Aang first talks about him. He mentions visiting his friend Kuzon in the Fire Nation. JBK405 01:21, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

About Iroh's family- He was suppsosed to inheriate the throne, but after the loss of his son, Lu Ten, and the military loss at Ba Sing Se, Ozai tried to have his father write him into his will instead of Iroh. Weather or not he succeeded isn't really known, but Azulon (Iroh/Ozai's Father and Fire Lord) died the next day and Ursa (Ozai's Wife) disapeared, and Ozai was named fire lord.

[edit] Haircut

an unnamed user added this change: "and also as a symbol of their shame (during the feudal era of Japan cutting their ponytail symbolize as their loss of honor and they are shamed and because they are banish from their hometown and can never return)." Do we need a reference and should it remain if the reference proves true? I saw no shame in Zuko or Iroh's eyes. H2P 05:30, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

I'd say to keep to remove the point of view in that statement (that there is "shame" involved) and to keep the rest of it, but the problem is that the statement is not cited. References that tie the show to reality are always great to have in these articles, granted they're sourced. If anyone could provide such a source for this statement, that'd be great. Prototime 05:37, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

All I can say on the subject of hair, that throughout history its pretty important to people. Native Americans cut their hair as a sign of mourning. I think the reason, why Iroh and Zuko didn't show shame was because they had this "it has to be done" mentality when the served their queue and topknot. If we really want to get into samuria customs, which I know very little of. They (Zuko and Iroh) should have killed themselves. -DJZutara and Taang FOREVER 04:16, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

"They (Zuko and Iroh) should have killed themselves." Seppuku, aka Hara-kiri, is only done to avoid being captured by the enemy. Not banishment.GnothiChristos 07:31, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

Don't know about Japanese culture, but at least in China's Qing dynasty, when all men needed to wear pigtails to indicate their loyalty to the emperor, if someone had their pigtails cut off, it was a symbol that they are betraying China. Perhaps Iroh and Zuko are doing a similar thing here: declaring that they are no longer loyal to the Fire Nation by cutting off their hair. If anyone could find a better more detailed reference to that, we could add it in. -- 138.16.28.128 09:35, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Secret Connections

The episode "The Desert" revealed Iroh to be a high ranking member of an organization called White Lotus. This organization is currently unknown in composition and agenda but Iroh made contact with it deep in the Earth Kingdom through a very elaborate ritual involving the game Pai Sho.

What's your point?

I see what he's getting at, though-- a Fire Nation General with contacts deep in the Earth Kingdom, and possibly other nations and kingdoms? Certainly odd... I wonder if we will ever see the White Lotus again.

We have seen the White Lotus again. In "Sokka's Master" Sokka receives a White Lotus Pai Sho tile after he completes his training indicating his teacher is also a member of the White Lotus Society. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.160.109.154 (talk) 20:35, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Voice Change

Sad news guys, the voice behind Iroh, Mako, passed away on the 21st.

Yeah I heard. Sad news indeed. --Redsparta 01:48, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

• sob* So they are either gonna kill of Uncle Iroh, or get a new person to do his voice. :-(

*SAD* Noo.. =( But they won't change the storyline just for that. ...If anything, give Iroh a cold for the rest of the series. >.> They'll find a new person. Iroh can't die especially if he's integral to the plot in the future, which I believe he will be in Book 3 and such. --Crisu 13:29, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

This is horrible... may he rest in peace. I do wonder how many episodes he had completed before this happened. –Prototime (talk • contribs) 16:36, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

I hope they finished all of Book 2 at least (the episodes are airing further apart now, so I dunno...). It would make for a better transition when Book 3 rolls around. --Crisu 20:27, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

According to AvatarSpirit, Book 2 should be done H2P 20:39, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

Who knows, maybe he even completed some Book 3 episodes, though that may be a stretch. –Prototime (talk • contribs) 05:24, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

They did complete most of book 2, I don't know about all of it.

I can't think of anybody right off who sounds like him or could emulate him. It'd probably have to be a Japanese-American would it not? --Crisu 12:55, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

May Makko rest in peace. His death is surely a traggedy. I have no idea what is happening for a voice replacement, but at least Book 2 is finished. If anyone gets any information on the new guy for the voice let us know. Please. -T

I would just like to say that, if the writers decide to "work" Mako's passing into the show, it will cause the show to jump the shark. IMO, I don't think that's what Mako would have wanted. "The show must go on" as they say, and to kill off Uncle Iroh would be totally inappropriate for both the show, the network, and the rest of the Avatar cast, but more importantly, it would be an insult to Mako's friends and family. Brittany Ka 11:49, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

Maybe they'll use the runner up to replace Mako? Like they did in the Harry Potter movies after the first Dumbledore died. -DJZutara and Taang FOREVER 04:18, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

For those of you who hadn't noticed, the Tale of Iroh (the mini-story dedicated to Mako's passing) featured a small bit done by someone other than Mako. Although he wasn't as good as Mako, he did a pretty good job. Supposedly Mako had finished recording for the entire second season before his passing, but this could be a sign that the creators are prepared to replace him.

Guys I did a little research and added some info to the page as to who the replacement might be. Granted I know nothing has been confirmed yet but with was said by them at the Pacific Media Expo regarding the identity of the new voice actor, it was pretty easy to narrow it down to one person that matched up with what they said during the panel. Yes...I provided sources as to where I recieved my info from. Check it out. - Nero

I deleted Nero's info from the page since it was pure speculation. Until an actor's name is conclusively mentioned, the page should be devoid of "guesses". (Ghostexorcist 21:45, 1 January 2007 (UTC))

The credits for the new Avatar super-deformed short do indeed confirm that a different actor for Iroh was used. He most likely is the permanent replacement but that information shouldn't be put up until the information from the press release for season 3 is out. - Nero

Just so you know I recanted my earlier statement about waiting for the press release for season 3 and put in the info about Greg Baldwin's agency confirming his role on Avatar. That alone seems official enough. Anything about Greg Baldwin as Mako's replacement should not be removed. - Nero

[edit] Requested move

[edit] Abilties

Does anyone else think that we should have a section on Iroh's unique abilities, like shooting fire from his mouth, which gave him his Dragon of the West nickname., or redirecting lightning, which he created.--Editmonkey 04:19, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

No, others have invented abilities too. Hell, Toph just bended metal. For now, mention it within his article. H2P ^{(Yell at me for what I've done)} 04:22, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

I meant on this page, but yeah, just checking.--Editmonkey 04:36, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Suggestion for a Section

How's about a list of Iroh's advice and observations. Example: "Power and perfection are over rated." --The Crossroads of Destiny —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.157.3.3 (talk • contribs) 15:55, 3 December 2006 (UTC).

OR, you could just make him a Wikiquote page. H2P ^{(Yell at me for what I've done)} 18:25, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

Does that mean, "No?"

I'm guessing it means no. Momoroxmysoxoff 21:01, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

And if you, 68.157.3.3, (or anybody else) would like to make a page for him on Wikiquote, I have a collection of his quotes on my page...around 30 actually. GeneralIroh ^{(Leave a message after the beep if you gotta problem) 22:38, 20 January 2007 (UTC)}

^{[edit] June in Relationships section}

^{in the relationship section June is one of the people listed in it. If I recall correctly Jun only interacted with Iroh for one episode. Though he did seem to have a very large crush on her it was still only for one episode. She did not impact him greatly, physically or mentally so she really didn't do anything prominent enough to remain there. Perhaps a footnote listing the fact that Iroh tends to flirt with many women would be better. Anyone else care to contribute their thoughts? 69.141.78.155 01:01, 9 January 2007 (UTC)}

^{I say delete it. H2P (Yell at me for what I've done) 04:57, 9 January 2007 (UTC)}

January 11, 2007 - Hmm, I really don't care, but was the person who wrote this article wrong? No. So why reduce it?

June didn't really seem to have a big impact on him. He's now like 'Ooh June I think about her all the time' in any of the episodes, so I don't really think she should be included on this page. If it's still included in the episode summary, then I think that's enough. Bagpipeturtle 17:56, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

Since there has been no arguement why She should be there, I'm deleting it. Lionheart08 22:27, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Mako in season 2?

Does anyone know if Mako who played Iroh, died after the crossroads of destiney episode or did he die before that becuase if so, who played iroh for the finshing up of the second season.-User:AvatarDude360

Most of season two is in Mako's voice (and its all still credited to him) but there are a handful of times in the latter episodes its somebody else, presumably the replacement they have. His identity hasn't been announced yet (not last time I checked, anyway.)--Fyre2387 ^{(talk • contribs)} 02:00, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

OH, ok thank you. Becuase they sound exactly alike. Hopefully they might be related in some way. LOL. Even though no one can replace MAKO, i hope he's the same kind loving kind of person like the original IROH. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by AvatarDude360 (talk • contribs) 02:03, 22 January 2007 (UTC).

Correction-Mako DID voice Iroh in the season finale. The only times he didn't voice Iroh were a few minutes in The Tales of Ba Sing Se and near the beginning of The Earth King. Mako had finished recording for the second season before his death, and it's unknown why they had his replacement actor voice those two scenes. But yes, Iroh will be alive as the creators announced at PMX that a replacement voice actor had been chosen. Anyways, this topic of discussion should be dead anyways... —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.36.18.11 (talk) 19:46, 4 February 2007 (UTC).

The replacement for Mako is most likely Greg Baldwin. He has been a student of Mako's voice since 1977, and therefore is a great replacement. He has been working with avatar for some time. It is interesting to note that the first time Greg Baldwin speaks in Avatar is in the middle of Iroh's story in 'Tales of Ba Sing Se', right after the window was smashed in the earthbending soccer game. If you pay attention, you can tell that his voice is different from Mako's. The first time Greg Baldwin was credited as Iroh was in the credits of the short 'School Time Shipping'. 72.234.46.143 12:44, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

He's doing an absolutely perfect job mimicking. This bodes well for a return of Samurai Jack, or another CGI Turtles movie. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.72.21.221 (talk) 01:03, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Fair use rationale for Image:Iroh as DragonIntotheWest.jpg

Image:Iroh as DragonIntotheWest.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.

BetacommandBot 08:30, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Iroh's feelings about the war

This has confused me for some time. What exactly are Iroh's feelings about the war and Zuko's attempts to capture Aang? In season 1, he seems to have no problem with Zuko attempting to capture Aang and even helps him on occasion. ("Remain hidden until we reach the North Pole, and the Avatar will be yours"). He also doesn't express any problems with the war, even going as far as to assist Admiral Zhau with his invasion of the Nothern Water Tribe as a cover for helping Zuko.

In season 2, however, he begins trying to talk Zuko out of his pursuit of Aang, and even goes as far as to attack Azula and Zuko in the season finale to buy time for Katara and Aang to escape. This is very different from the series premiere, in which he launches a blast of fire at Appa to try to prevent Aang from escaping. In season 3, he tells Zuko that it's his responsibility to erase the "sins of our family".

At what point did Iroh have this character shift? It doesn't make much sense to me. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.67.142.56 (talk) 19:52, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

I don't think he ever shifted but he knew he needed to convince people to join him and how would he do it if everyone wans to kill him, at least now we know Zuko might join Aang and the group. Joeking16 (talk) 20:48, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

I think it is more a matter of supporting Zuko in the best way at that moment, than shifting feelings. Through most the 1st season, Zuko was dead set on returning to Fire nation and nothing was going to change that. Even still, you can tell throughout that Iroh isn't exactly being super helpful. He's generally passive, or actually distracting from the task. However, in second season, Azula started off by trying to capture them, obviously seemingly closing the return option to Zuko. This changed things greatly, and Zuko got his chance to see things from the other side, allowing Iroh to push another view point now on a more open Zuko. It just unfortunately turned out that Zuko wasn't quite as open as he thought at the time. Derekloffin (talk) 21:12, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

More to the point, he was supporting Zuko's quest, because it was important to him, and, even though Iroh felt that capturing the Avatar would be sacrilegious and insane, for various reasons, he had no trouble helping Zuko do it before the beginning of Season one, when it appeared as though they would never even find the avatar, or even that the avatar was dead. Afterwords, we see him doing things, like in "the waterbending scroll" that seem bent on leading Zuko astray from the Avatar's trail, or otherwise secretly hindering their chances of success. In fairness, this wouldn't have been far out of character anyway.129.1.33.51 (talk) 20:46, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Relationships

The relationship section in Aangs article has been removed due to being considered original research, only fair that Iroh and all the other characters have their relationship sections removed as well, as all relationship content seems to be considered original research by Wikipedias standards. [/sarcasm]. Can anyone get the Aang relationship section back? 189.32.153.180 (talk) 23:18, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] GA

I can tell you right now that this article is going to fail the current GA nom. This is because:

1. The lead is too short.
2. There is no "creation and conception" section that describes how the character was created.
3. There is no "reception" section that describes how the viewing public favors him or not.
4. There are no 3rd party sources, only episodes.
5. It's still written with "in-universe" material.
6. Has he appeared in other forms of media besides the cartoon? I'm sure there are Avatar comic books, novels, and video games that he appears in.

I am not the GA reviewer, but these are definitely things that they will bring up. --Ghostexorcist (talk) 18:24, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

I suppose you are right. Would someone withdraw this for me? I can't right now. Thanks. Maximillion Pegasus (talk) 19:34, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

Quick-failed for this reason. Sceptre ^(talk) 03:04, 6 April 2008 (UTC)