Talk:Irma Grese
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[edit] The use of the phraze "lice ridden..."
I guess the editors must have agreed about " the lice ridden " part. Is the complete record of an article available - original, edits ( each ) etc? It would be interesting to compare how goofy an article gets ( from both sides - I doubt the dreaded trolls,etc can match the "official" edits in most cases. Anyhow, per Miss Grese, tracing down each account ( head of 30,000, etc )should prove amusing - I believe most of these accounts rely on a surprisingly smaal number of "eyewitnesses" who often get things a little out of whack. I just came from a site by cwporter ( I know an unreliable source but reading him seems to flesh this story out a bit. One witness - Abraham Gl***** - seems to be a/the source for some of the good stuff about Miss Grese. I will try to chase him down. 159.105.80.80 15:17, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Factual accuracy
Abraham Glinowieski, seems to be a major witness against several defendants. Some of hid testimony seems questionable, but he was the witness du jour. Abe had Miss Grese performing tasks that appeared well above her pay grade ( ie a teenager was selecting who was to be killed - a doctors only job, of course if there ever was such a job.) Reading thhe trial transcript, or available parts seems to rasie more questions than it answeres.159.105.80.80 17:18, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
How did she dare shot prisoners on her own whim when camp commanders were executed for cruelty to inmates? Sounds unlikely that she lived long enough to be captured and hung by the British. [citation needed]159.105.80.80 17:24, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
The article tries to imply (accidently maybe?) that she was SS - no way, no women were SS. SS-helper was as close as she could get. Camp matron. Her whip was supposed to be jewle encrusted - actually made of cellophane, minus the jewels.159.105.80.80 18:16, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
Can all sources be so blindly belived? Watch out for the far-right and radical left, which hold out on so-called Holocaust 'history' sites. Some sites nead to be treated with care and caution, due to thier radical viewpoints. (C.W.Porter, ect).!--86.29.242.170 18:30, 22 March 2007 (UTC)[citation needed]
I agree, mate!--86.29.250.83 01:44, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
Yeo, man!--86.29.250.156 20:09, 24 March 2007 (UTC)
Be particularly careful of sites that list holocaust crimes without any verifiable evidence. Were the women German prisoners tortured after WW2 - the male prisoners seem to have been particularly badly treated - stupidly also. 159.105.80.141 17:10, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
[edit] What total nonsense
This girl was a 19 yr old postal clerk, who took roll call. You need to be a total idiot to think she skinned three jews alive. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.12.194.210 (talk) 04:59, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
[edit] Neutrality
I read this article for research a few months ago and whilst the early parts appear the same, most of the latter half appears to have been substantially re-edited in her favour, as well as certain other statements (eg. the executioner's suicide) which didn't appear in the earlier article at all. It is also interesting that none of this supposedly verifiable information is referenced in any way.
DG, Leeds, UK
I've added 3 [citation needed] tags to the dogy bits on her love life. --Homer slips. 03:54, 22 December 2006 (UTC)
Neatrality? I think the POV-tag is misplaced. It should not refer to "War crimes" but to "Beautiful Beast". The "War crimes" section is, in my view, factual and neutral. It just tells what she was accused of, and convicted for. The only factual mistake here seems to be the date of her conviction - I don't believe she was hanged the same day!
- Found meanwhile the correct date of conviction in a German document [1] and changed it.--Kauko56 23:47, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
The "Beautiful Beast" section, however, dwells on her (alleged) lovers or sexual preferences and is therefore irrelevant for her place in history, or her legal guilt. The references for this section do not point to sources but to tabloid press clippings. If we want to shed some light on who she was as a person (not: as a criminal) we should at least try to get better sources.
These are the reasons why I removed the POV-Tag from "War Crimes" and placed it on "Beautiful Beast". --Kauko56 23:34, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
I've been studying Mengele for a long time, and nowhere have I ever heard that he took Irma Grese as a lover. If anything, he was fiercely loyal to his wife, Irene, and she even lived with him at Auschwitz for about a year. I think a lot of this article is wishful thinking, trying to make another cruel SS guard into some romantic heroine. --Rebecca, Myrtle Beach SC 10/07/06
Research project - if her love life ( if it existed ) is not verifiable by reliable sources, then where did the unreliable data come from - proNazi sources? Could some junk come from non-ProNazi sources, perish the thought, but let's document it. 159.105.80.141 13:32, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
An interesting project would be to trace back all the rumors and the sources - her love life ( who and where did it first come from - some document or a reilable holocaust source), etc.159.105.80.141 17:12, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
Non active and old articles are being archived. All stuff that was not used since April 2007 was archived.--The golden easter party man (talk) 03:19, 27 November 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Irma Grese's trial witnesses
The evidence of acts which, if true, would warrant sentence of death under British law at the time, was:
1. Dora Szafran claimed that in Camp " A " in Block 9, Grese had shot two girls who had tried to escape through a window after being selected for the gas chamber, and were lying on the ground outside.
2. Ilona Stein claimed that Grese took part in selections at Auschwitz with Kramer and Mengele. She claimed that Grese pointed out to a guard some prisoners trying to hide, and they were shot. She claimed that Grese ordered one of the S.S. guards to shoot a Hungarian woman who tried to escape.
3. Abraham Glinowieski claimed that when a transport from Hungary arrived Grese sent hundreds of sick and healthy people to the gas chambers.
4. Gertrude Diament claimed that Grese was responsible for selecting victims for the gas chambers at Auschwitz. She also claimed that women kicked by Grese with her heavy boots were likely to die from the injuries sustained, although she had no direct evidence of such deaths.
5. Klara Lobowitz claimed that she had often seen Grese with Dr. Mengele selecting people for the gas chamber and for forced labour in Germany.
6. Erika Thuna claimed that Grese both took part in selections for the gas chamber at Auschwitz.
7. Edith Trieger claimed that in August, 1944, she saw Grese shoot a Hungarian Jewess, aged 30, through the left breast, and that later she went up to the victim and found that she was dead.
8. Helene Kopper claimed that while Grese was in charge of the Strafkommando (Punishment Kommando) working in a sand pit from 1942-1944 (in Court Kopper changed this period to seven months), it was her practice to pick out certain of the Jewish woman prisoners and order them to get something from the other side of the wire, with the result that they were shot by the guard. She claimed that Grese was responsible for at least 30 deaths a day resulting from her orders to cross the wire, but many more on occasions.
[edit] Irma Grese's sexual deviancies
She beat some of the women to death and whipped others mercilessly using a plaited whip. The inmates dubbed the blue-eyed blonde the "Beautiful Beast," while Grese herself became obsessed with the idea of becoming a film star after the war. She also had a reputation as a nymphomaniac, sexually abusing male and female prisoners alike and taking many lovers, including the camp physician Josef Mengele and camp commandant Josef Kramer.
Survivors Isabella Leitner and Olga Lengyel have documented Grese's bisexual escapades, the latter noting that "Grese" often had homosexual affairs with prisoners - which was a _major_ violation of the Race and Resettlement Act ( a matter of _Rassenschande_) - and then had the potential incriminating participants killed. Dr. Gisella Perl observed that "Grese" relished whipping well-deloped young woman and the breasts, which eventually became infected. Once this occurred, Perl, the inmate doctor, would be ordered to operate and Grese would become sexually aroused just watching the woman's suffering. No anesthetic was used and the victim would scream in agony throughout the procedure. Equally sickening testimony was also presented at the Lüneberg Trial. In laying out its case, the prosecution gave the court eye-witness testimony that "this 100-pound German girl invented new methods of torture. One of them: she waited until a pregnant woman was ready to give birth, then tied her legs together and watched the agony. source nizkor
[edit] ==Pierrepoint's memoires==
According the memoires of Pierrepoint, as placed at [2], his version differs slightly from what is mentioned in the article. I will change it.Jeff5102 (talk) 19:52, 24 February 2008 (UTC)
[edit] Age
Page 66 of the Law Reports of Trials of War Criminals By United Nations War Crimes Commission (cited in footnotes) says that she was underage at the time of the offences...how exactly does that work? Do we have her birthdate wrong? Sherurcij (Speaker for the Dead) 21:27, 18 March 2008 (UTC)
- The entirety of Page 66 concerns Helena Kopper, not Irma Grese. I can't find any reference to either of these people being referred to as "underage", though; in fact, the word "underage" doesn't seem to appear in this document at all. I've reread the section about Grese (including the closing statement by Grese's attorney) and I can't find any such reference regardless of the specific terms used. Could you be more specific as to where it is? Merenta (talk) 15:52, 19 March 2008 (UTC)
- The footnote on the page, not the page itself, my apologies. Sherurcij (Speaker for the Dead) 01:04, 20 March 2008 (UTC)
