Template talk:Irish national newspapers

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[edit] Content of template

I removed minor publications from this list of "major" newspapers. If the Protestant Telegraph really must be included, then throw in the Irish Catholic for good measure.

I would go further and propose that only those newspapers currently in print be included in this template. An additional template Template:Defunct Irish national newspapers could cover the rest. --Damac 15:43, 29 November 2005 (UTC)

No on both counts. Firstly the Protestant Telegraph was not akin to the Irish Catholic. It was, or purported to be, a national Newspaper. The IC has never claimed to be that. Secondly the story of Irish newspapers involving going between modern papers with old origins to papers that existed within their timespan but no longer do. You cannot discuss the Sunday Tribune without discussing the Daily News, the Evening Herald without discussing the Evening Mail, the Irish Independent without discussing the Freeman's Journal, which in turn means the Nation has to be discussed. So breaking them up into separate templates would be pointless. FearÉIREANN 15:58, 29 November 2005 (UTC)

How do you define "national". The Irish Catholic does claim to be a national paper in that it does not target a particular provincial, county or local readership. Sectional yes, just as the Protestant Telegraph is (as far as I am aware, the PT is published to this day). By the way, the PT is so incredibly national that there is barely any information on this paper on the internet nor does it host its own website. I have read about it in Revd Dr W. Dennis D. Cooke's Persecuting Zeal and he certainly did not describe it as a national paper, nor indeed one that appealed to all Protestants!

I think the template should show Wikipedia users the major titles that are currently in print in Ireland and as such am still not convinced that defunct papers should be included. I'm going to solicit the opinions of others.

And finally, since when is the Daily Telegraph Irish?--Damac 16:27, 29 November 2005 (UTC)

It isn't. The Evening Telegraph was, as is linked in the text of articles if you had bothered to check. But then people know the history of publishing newspapers in Ireland know well about the Evening Telegraph. Calling it Daily was a typo. Ever heard of fixing typos?

Of course the PT doesn't host its own website. It shut down long ago. (BTW contrary to your edit elsewhere the Irish Catholic is not a broadsheet. It is a tabloid.) And you simply cannot work through the history of Irish newspapers if the template leaves out a big chunk of those that existed. No newspaper exists in isolation. It has to be considered in the context of those other papers in existence during its lifetime. You cannot cover the Freeman's Journal without the impact of the United Irishman, the Evening Telegraph, the Evening Herald and the Daily Irish Independent/Irish Independent and others. The whole point of the template is to enable people to look at the range of titles that have existed over the last 200 years, pick up a thread and through linking articles follow the storyline. That cannot' be done if you decide that the template only covers papers in existence in 2005!!! Nor is there a clear category for defunct newspapers. The Irish Press, for example, is not defunct: it still exists, just isn't being printed. The same is true of the Sunday Press and the Evening Press. Indeed there are periodic plans to relaunch the Sunday Press but they fall through because journalists refuse ever to work again for the incompetent de Valera/Jennings buffoons who sunk the group (plus those sons of bitches still owe us all money, yet cream in money for their company from property investments while not paying people the publishing side of the business still owe money to.) The Freeman's Journal still exists as part of the Irish Independent (The Indo carried "incorporarating the Freeman's Journal" on its editorial page until 10 years ago.) Should we have 3 templates: papers in 2005, papers no longer printing but still officially in existence, defunct papers? In fact in that case we should have 4 templates: papers in 2005, papers no longer printing but still officially in existence, defunct papers, papers merged but still technically existing. That would be crazy. All that is needed is one template. Your argument is illogical.FearÉIREANN 16:49, 29 November 2005 (UTC)

And your reaction is exaggerated.

Surely "people (who) know the history of publishing newspapers in Ireland know well" that The Protestant Telegraph/New Protestant Telegraph was printed at least up to June 2000. Regardless of the fact, the PT never aspired to national status, and more importantly, nor was it seen as national.

I've cut thousands of mastheads in my time and am fully aware of the genealogy of Irish newspapers. Still, I didn't think that this template was about the history of Irish newspapers. Nowhere does it state that, nor does the template as it stands give the reader any indication of the links between the various titles. I assumed and would continue to argue that it should list the papers that are available on the news stands at present. --Damac 17:11, 29 November 2005 (UTC)

You seem to be adopting a purely historical perspective, which I would submit is not the only way of looking at this. What's wrong with a template listing papers which are published today in Ireland, and one listing papers formerly published in Ireland? Alternatively these could be two sections of the same template.

As for the Irish Catholic, it is sectional but distributed nationally. I'm not familiar with the Protestant Telegraph, but I'd be interested to know why it qualifies as a national paper if the IC doesn't. --Ryano 17:04, 29 November 2005 (UTC)

• distribution methodology PT was sold and distributed as a newspaper in newsagents. Though sold in a small minority of shops, IC's primary market is being sold in churches, often with a stipend rather than being bought.
• does it cover outside the narrow confines of its core interest? PT sought — very poorly — to cover issues outside Protestantism, or see non-religious issues from a Protestant perspective. 90% of IC content is internal Church stuff: discussions about the new decades of the Rosary, what the Pope said last week about whatever the heck, pilgrimages, a press release by a bishop, an "isn't the Irish media so anti-Catholic!" every second issue, prayers to St. Joseph of Cupertino, etc etc. Even the IC would not call itself a newspaper. It calls itself a periodical. In contrast the PT unambigiously saw itself as a newspaper, not a magazine, and saw it reflecting the "voice of protestant Ulster". They are two fundamentally different types of publication. FearÉIREANN 18:00, 29 November 2005 (UTC)

A quick look at their web site [1] indicates that they do indeed call themselves a newspaper:

The Irish Catholic is a weekly newspaper, which provides news and informed comment about the Church and social issues in Ireland and the world. It is Ireland's largest selling and most influential independent Catholic newspaper, having been always owned and managed by lay people. The 24-page tabloid-sized paper can be delivered worldwide.[2]

I suppose I should declare an interest here, in that my grandfather was editor of this paper for 45 years. Despite that, I don't hold much of a brief for the IC, although I have always thought of it as a newspaper rather than a church periodical. --Ryano 18:16, 29 November 2005 (UTC)

I better declare an interest too. I used to write for it under a pseudonym. It officially calls itself a newspaper but never ever regards itself as such. It has none of the structures of a newspaper, no specialist correspondents, no factual news agenda, rarely if ever uses newswires, etc etc. I don't think it even has an NUJ chapel, which newspapers invariably do. Any objective analysis of content, distribution, structure, news agenda, work rotas and staffing, pretty much blows the idea that it is a newspaper out of the water. Ireland probably could do with a Catholic newspaper, but about the only thing the IC has in common with a newspaper is the fact that it has newsprint and is tabloid-ish size.

The problem is that as the Irish media got more resources, the IC stayed stuck in a rut. It is little different than it always was, unlike mainstream newspapers (and even specialist ones) who have far superior design, more staff, broader content, full national distribution network, NNI JMRC surveys, advertising, etc. I rarely see it these days, but when I do it is usually followed by a sick feeling, not in terms of its agenda — though I disagree with some of that — but in terms of its chronic failure to move out of the realm of extended parish bulletin for the country and actually explore Catholic issues. But as its history shows, if the paper doesn't produce produce endless supplements on Our Lady of Somewhere-or-other, endless nice articles on the Rosary through the ages, piles of articles asking why is the world so nasty to Catholics, and instead tries to move the publication into the realms of even slight news coverage (as happened some years ago) the largely elderly readership goes beserck (or rather given their age, slightly annoyed and write to the local priest) and so the "Knit a Sock for Jesus:Knitting Patterns from Nazereth", "101 easy prayers to say when you lose your mobile phone", or "God's Feed: How to produce a 10 course meal from 10 loaves and 2 fishes" get priority over anything remotely qualifying as newspaper standard coverage on any issue. And because it only writes what its small number of readers want to read, and daren't deviate, it means that there is no serious credible Catholic publication to appeal to anyone else, other than the largely sixty-year old grannies who read "The Catholic" alongside "The Messenger" while using Vicks Vaporub.

Having written for it and having written through the media (and well as researching the Irish media for academic reasons) the IC ain't remotely a paper. It is a small, inward-looking periodical, with an elderly readership, little resources, no wire reliance, no correspondents, little coverage of contemporary issues outside the Church.

Anyone who has used Quark Xpress would be able to design as good a layout (in fact probably a whole lot better) in a couple of hours. I know I edited a 48 page newspaper once on a mac. The whole paper was done by 5 people over 9 days, and that involved design, layout, graphics, and the writing! That student magazine had as large a print run as the IC while an advertorial I designed for a politician had a print run for 2.5 times the IC and was distributed over a euro-constituency. And id did cover issues (in so far as an advertorial can, but still better than the IC does). So it would have to be described as a newspaper given its distribution, size, print run and the fact that it said it was on its masthead, if the IC, with a smaller print run, smaller distribution and less news stories, was to be called a newspaper. University magazines like the University Observer would also qualify. It is far closer in content, layout, structure, etc to the standard newspaper than the IC ever is. Put simply, the Irish Catholic is a rather poor periodical, not by any stretch of the imagination a newspaper. It can call itself what it wants, but an objective analysis of content, analysis, staffing, structure, distribution, attention to news values, etc shows that it is miles away from the basic definition of what is a newspaper. FearÉIREANN 19:08, 29 November 2005 (UTC)

The template is a work in progress. I've physically separated the current and defunct papers to two different sections of the template. It allows the old and new papers to be linked, which IMHO is vital. Religious publications have their own template. FearÉIREANN\^(caint) 22:13, 7 December 2005 (UTC)