Talk:Irenaeus

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[edit] Copyright Issue?

Why is this article being flagged for a copyright issue? Stephen C. Carlson 17:43, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

Good question. Would the person who did this please be so polite and give reasons why this is supposed to be a copyright infringement. --Hs282 21:03, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

I removed the unexplained copyright warning. The person who flagged it also mentioned it at Wikipedia:Copyright problems/2006 February 26, but without much of an explanation there either: he simply links to the marketing page for a book: hxxp://www.christianbook.com/Christian/Books/product?item_no=27765&netp_id=318424&event=ESRCN&item_code=WW -- The History of Christian Thought. If there is a problem, we need details so we can verify it and remove the offending material. – B.Bryant 00:02, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

I apologize. I'm new at this. I flagged it because as I was going through a book of mine, The History of Christian Thought by Jonathan Hill (IVP, 2004), the content and even the outline of this article is practically identical to this one. Either its coincidence or a copyright issue. I can't find an online version, so, I understand it could be hard to verify this. Any ideas? Again, sorry for the lack of detail and communication on my part. JordanBarrett 17:11, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

Similarities in content and outline are not usually enough to raise a copyright issue. Is the wording of the content verbatim or nearly so? If so, what wording is nearly identical? Stephen C. Carlson 05:29, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] wooden Latin translation

What do you mean wooden? Romans wrote on wood and it was conserved?

A wooden translation is so 'literal' that it is no longer a good text (in terms of grammar and style) in the target language into which is has been translated. --Hs282 21:06, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] re:In Book II, ch. 22, par. 5, he gives an intriguing note about Jesus being seen by several witnesses in Asia in his older age after crucifixion:

Complete context:

5. They, however, that they may establish their false opinion regarding that which is written, "to proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord," maintain that He preached for one year only, and then suffered in the twelfth month. [In speaking thus], they are forgetful to their own disadvantage, destroying His whole work, and robbing Him of that age which is both more necessary and more honourable than any other; that more advanced age, I mean, during which also as a teacher He excelled all others. For how could He have had disciples, if He did not teach? And how could He have taught, unless He had reached the age of a Master? For when He came to be baptized, He had not yet completed His thirtieth year, but was beginning to be about thirty years of age (for thus Luke, who has mentioned His years, has expressed it: "Now Jesus was, as it were, beginning to be thirty years old,"(13) when He came to receive baptism); and, [according to these men,] He preached only one year reckoning from His baptism. On completing His thirtieth year He suffered, being in fact still a young man, and who had by no means attained to advanced age. Now, that the first stage of early life embraces thirty years,(1) and that this extends onwards to the fortieth year, every one will admit; but from the fortieth and fiftieth year a man begins to decline towards old age, which our Lord possessed while He still fulfilled the office of a Teacher, even as the Gospel and all the elders testify; those who were conversant in Asia with John, the disciple of the Lord, [affirming] that John conveyed to them that information.(2) And he remained among them up to the times of Trajan. (3) Some of them, moreover, saw not only John, but the other apostles also, and heard the very same account from them, and bear testimony as to the [validity of] the statement. Whom then should we rather believe? Whether such men as these, or Ptolemaeus, who never saw the apostles, and who never even in his dreams attained to the slightest trace of an apostle? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 160.218.255.58 (talk) 19:36, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

Asia being the Near East. Not the Far East, if that's what you were thinking.

The text means that the Apostles and others later testified about Jesus' maturity at the time of His death, not that the Apostles later saw Him old.

The "he" in "he remained with them to the time of Trajan" is St. John, not Jesus.

[edit] His theology

Irenaeus did not teach that Christ is the invisible Father made visible. As seen in the writings of Irenaeus he refers to the Son who was always with the Father.

The central point of Irenaeus' theology is the unity of God, in opposition to the Gnostics' division of God into a number of divine "Aeons", and their distinction between the utterly transcendent "High God" and the inferior "Demiurge" who created the world. Irenaeus uses the Logos theology he inherited from Justin Martyr. Irenaeus was a student of Polycarp, who was tutored by John the Apostle. John used Logos theology in the Gospel of John and book of 1 John. He prefers to speak of the Son and the Spirit as the "hands of God". (edited out) Christ, according to him, is the invisible Father made visible.

---
"Their Fall was thus not a full-blown rebellion but a childish spat, a desire to grow up before their time and have everything with immediacy."

Are we sure this sums up Irenaeus' idea of maturation? Its my understanding Irenaeus thought the fall more significant than a 'childish spat.' DaXiong 09:54, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] The Age of Jesus

Irenaeus placed the Baptism of Jesus when he was 30 years of age and his ministry between the ages of 40 and 50.

The argument that this means that Jesus was 50 years old at the time of the crucifixion fails to take into account the idiom of the 2nd Century AD.

Decades, like centuries and millenia still today, are counted in reference to the LAST year of the decade not the FIRST. So, for example, the TWENTIETH century consisted of the years 1901-2000.

In the mindset of the 2nd Century (AD 101-200) a person "50 years of age" was in his FIFTH decade of life, in other words, between his 41st and 50th birthday, what we would today call "the 40's".

Irenaeus placed the Baptism of Jesus in his third decade of life, namely between his 21st and 30th birthdays and his ministry in his fourth decade of life, namely between his 31st and 40th birthday.

Using modern idiom Irenaues is really saying that Jesus was in his 20s when he was baptized and in his 30's during his public ministry.

Uhm... Can you actually support any of that attempt at retconning the text? – B.Bryant 13:23, 14 January 2006 (UTC)

Ireneous was not saying Jesus was at least 40. see http://www.bringyou.to/apologetics/a38.htm I have removed that section. It is an attempt to introduce controversy and undermine his credibility or that of the Gospel.

[edit] Unneeded info

"The remains of Leonardo da Vinci and Kepler, among others, also were lost in the religious wars of those times (note: how can this be if Kepler died in the 1600's and wasn't French or Catholic?)."

I removed the preceding sentence because it's totally irrelevant, not to mention misleading. If anyone has any legitimate concerns or objections, just say so.Yourmotherisanastronaut 01:23, 9 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] John the Evangelist

As in my comment on the Polycarp and St John articles, there seems to be a lack of clarity here. It appears to me that polycarp is said to have known st John the Apostle, but that it is merely a matter of church tradition that John the Apostle was also John the Evangelist (ie the author of the Gospel of John).

Also, in the Ireneus' theology section it says :Irenaeus was a student of Polycarp, who was tutored by John the Apostle. John used Logos theology in the Gospel of John and book of 1 John.etc. Again there seems to be an assumption that John the disciple wrote John's Gospel.

Revilo098 22:53, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] trajan

if jesus was seen during trajan´s period, he must have had at least 98 years old.

[edit] Removed phrase

"It is still not known to scholarship whether those four gospels were indeed written by their subjects" - Poorly worded, though true enough, but completely irrelevant to the discussion of Irenaeus. --Danny Reese 06:00, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Please merge recapitulation information into Irenaeus

I agree the recapitulation info should be merged into irenaeus.

Done. Tocharianne 01:06, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] "Orthodoxy"

I've changed "Christian orthodoxy" to "what he and the church hierarchy considered to be Christian orthodoxy". Maybe my wording here sounds too disparaging and needs changing, but it is important nonetheless to acknowldedge that what seemed to obvious to Irenaeus would not have been at all so to much earlier Christians. I found Elaine Pagels's The Origin of Satan very informative in this regard. Ireneshusband 18:01, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

It's OK to say "what he (Irenaeus) considered to be Christian orthodoxy"; whether Irenaeus's views were fully endorsed by the church hierarchy (where? which one?) we don't need to get into that can of worms. Stephen C. Carlson 18:14, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Irenaeus the heretic, apparently

Some groups, such as the Living Church of God, consider that Irenaeus excessively emphasized unity with Rome above certain matters of doctrine (such as the date of Passover), thus they have tended to consider Irenaeus a heretic.

Is the opinion of the "Living Church of God" (a not especially significant Protestant denomination of which I have certainly never heard) really important enough to warrant inclusion in a biography of Irenaeus?

No. – Quadell ^{(talk) (random)} 13:00, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Irenaeus' theology

There are two paragraphs at the end of this section that treats the faith (if that's the proper term in gnostic terminology) of the Valentinians, without reconnecting to Irenaeus' opposition. In order to fit in an article about Irenaeus, his counterargument should be added, or the sentences should be moved to Valentinianism. Said: Rursus 18:32, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Roman primacy

Thanks, whoever's helping with this section. I trimmed it. This section should be about what Irenaeus believed (apostolic etc.), not about what he didn't believe (RC-style papal supremacy). Leadwind (talk) 03:05, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Removed Sentence

I removed the sentence, "By accepting all four gospels, the second-century church accepted four distinct works with significantly different theological interpretations of the meaning of Jesus' life and death". The phrase "significantly different theological interpretations" is disputable. Many people, including Irenaeus, would say that the gospels were in harmony with one another. Since this page isn't about different opinions on the gospels, it is enough to say that Irenaeus excepted them as scripture and leave it at that. (Wintrlnd (talk) 20:10, 11 March 2008 (UTC))

The reliable source says "significantly different." If you have a reliable source that says otherwise, let's cite them both. Don't delete information from a reliable source just because you don't like it. Nonsectarian scholarly work is NPOV even if it doesn't agree with someone else's POV. Leadwind (talk) 23:12, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

I will work on finding a reliable source that says otherwise. However, the sentence currently reads like a matter of fact. Even with a nonsectarian work you should phrase the sentence in way that makes it clear that this is one school of thought and not undisputed fact. If you look at the next paragraph it has a line that says "Based on the arguments Irenaeus made in support of only four authentic gospels, some interpreters deduce that the fourfold Gospel must have still been a novelty in Irenaeus's time" The way that the sentence is phrased makes it clear that it is what "some interpreters deduced" and not an undisputed fact. In your own words from a few days ago on a different part of the article, "This section should be about what Irenaeus believed...".(Wintrlnd (talk) 02:22, 12 March 2008 (UTC))

Please locate a reliable source that differs from Harris. I added a reference from Ehrman in support of Harris. If Harris and Ehrman represent the findings of mainstream scholarship, then the citation is fine as it is. If there's a real dispute in scholarship as to whether the gospels are significantly different, then they only represent one school of thought. Once there's a reliable source that disagrees with them, then we should couch both sides of the issue in conditional terms. But when a nonsectarian university-level textbook tells me something with a straight face, I put it into WP without qualification. Leadwind (talk) 02:30, 12 March 2008 (UTC)