Talk:Iraqi Turkmen

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[edit] Requested Merger

It has been proposed that the articles of Iraqi Turkoman and Turkomans of Iraq be merged into this article.

Merge! abdulnr 19:30, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

Merge under Turks of Iraq --Cretanforever 19:55, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

Well, not everyone considers them to be ethnic Turks (of Turkey). Ethnologue even classifies their language as a form of South Azerbaijani. —Khoikhoi 00:12, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

Merge to Iraqi Turkoman. Two articles about the same thing. --334 18:51, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

Merge to Iraqi Turkoman or (probably better) Iraqi Turkmen. QuartierLatin1968 El bien mas preciado es la libertad 16:40, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

The problem with the word Turkmen is that it usually refers to the people of Turkmenistan, a (relatively) unrelated group. --334 20:27, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
Yes but Turcoman (and its variant spellings) has also been used to refer to the Turkmen of Turkmenistan. In any case, we're talking about Oğuz Turks, i.e. people that have been called Turks, Turkmens, Turkomans, etc, at various times and places. It wouldn't be Wikipedia's job to concoct a new distinction between "Turkoman" meaning the Oğuz Turks of Iraq, and "Turkmen" meaning the Oğuz Turks of Turkmenistan. If there's any real evidence of that distinction starting to be consistently made by native English speakers, then I'll withdraw my preference for the spelling Turkmen. QuartierLatin1968 El bien mas preciado es la libertad 00:20, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] NPOV?

It is not a very moderate and strong language.

I'm confused by this phrasing. Also, it doesn't sound like NPOV. -- Earle Martin 02:31, 8 Sep 2003 (UTC)

This quote just means that the language spoken by the Turkomans is not a strong language which means that there are not a lot of words belonging to them.


Sunni Muslims?

It is my imppression that most Iraqi Turkmens are Shi'a Muslims. I have lived in Iraq and I never met a Sunni Turkmen.

I agree with you as well, but I think they are fearly split between sunni and shia. Chaldean 17:26, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

I´m a Sunni Turkmen and I´m born in Erbil. I also think that more than half of the Iraqi Turkmens are Shi´a. But between the Turkmens there isn´t a splitting in Sunna and Shi´a. --Iraqi 2 Death 15:39, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Turkomans of Iraq and Torkomans of Kara Koyunlu and Ak Koyunlu

  • There is a stunning similarity of accent between the dialects of Turkomans of Iraq, especially Shias, and those of Iranian Il-Baghdadi of Shahsavans of Tehran and Markazi provinces, as compared to other Turkic and Turkish accents; Iraqi Turkoman accent despite Arabization is even closer to Shahsavans than to Azari accent.
  • The use of word Tukoman both for those in Iraq and those who ruled as Qara Qoyunlu and AQ Qoyunlu Dynasties could also be an indicative origins of Iraqi Torkomans being from those Torkomans.
  • The norther part of Iraq and Baghdad most of the times were under the two Qoyunlu dynasties. Qara Qoyunlu being the Shia followers and AQ Qoyunlu being the Sunnis. In fact, they were rivals to each other and fighting each other.
  • A big part of Il-Baghdadi of Shahsavans and Qashqai Turks are indeed called Qara Qoyunlu, Naser Khan being one of them.

The points above makes me think that Iraqi Turkomans are indeed closely related to Shahsavans of Iran and descendents of Aq Qoyunlu and Qara Qoyunlu Turkomans. Persian Magi 12:27, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

Hey you are right. I´m from Erbil and I´m Turkmen and my Grandfather also told me that we are descendants of the Aq Qoyunlu and Qara Qoyunlu . —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 85.181.10.7 (talk) 12:07, August 21, 2007 (UTC)

[edit] The Figure

The number you gave, namely CIA, is already between the min and max figures. No need to append it. You can find the relevant numbers following the references. Chapultepec 00:22, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

in my oponion the us do not have a good policy in iraq against turkman people.protecting kurd people and not giving enough power to turkman people of iraq will cause a big civil war in iraq.turkman people must have their own autonomous government. giving power to kurd people and lallowing them to seprate iraq and teach kurdish language will destroy turkman .kurd never allow anyother ethnic groups in iraq to speak their own language.so conflict will happen between kurd and turkman.no one must forget that for thousand of years turkman people have been leader and governers of iraq ofcours before interferences of the uk and the us.

[edit] Title dispute

"The neutrality of this article's title and/or subject matter is disputed."

Is this still the case? The tag was added by 71.222.75.149 in May 2007 without discussion[1]

AndrewRT(Talk) 22:34, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Title

I also belive we should move this tite to another name like simply as "Turkomans". The current title may confuse thinking that this means Turkmens of central asia as Iraqi citizens. Balu2000 19:15, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

Turkmen, Turcoman e.t.c is Türkmen in Turkish. It is the name given to the Muslim Oghuz (in Turkish Oğuz) Turks. You can just check Divan-ı Lugat-it Turk of Mahmud Kashgari. There are a couple of theories where the word came from ut this is not the topic. During the medieval age Turkmens became widespread. Some of them stayed at Central Asia and in the end they formed a state called Turkmenistan. Some of them migrated to Anatolia, Caucasia, e.t.c and they formed Turkey and Azerbaijan. And some of them became minorities in various countries like Bulgaria, Greece, Macedonia, Afganistan, Iran, Iraq, e.t.c. Within time, Turkmen origined people of Balkans and even Turkey are called just Turk. In other parts they were explicitly called as Turkmen. Historically they are the same people. Täñritäg 14:25, 21 August 2007 (UTC)


[edit] Wild exaggeration

The figure for turkic people in Iraq being over 300,000 is seriously stupid, let alone over two millions :). the whole of non-Arab non-Kurd population of Iraq including Armenians, Chaldeans, Assyrians, Persians, and others is 5% of Iraqi population (about 1,4 mil). Please note that addherents, ethnologue or similar websites are not accurate sources for demographics. Sharishirin (talk) 11:21, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

I think we should prove that adherents.com is a biased or inaccurate source by means of giving scientific/academic references before we remove referenced information from the article. Thanks. --Chapultepec (talk) 22:40, 26 April 2008 (UTC)
Well it uses this funny link: http://www.unpo.org/tartu/express/ (of an absolutely non-academic website written largely by ultra-nationalist individuals) as source for its wild claim; please note that 2 million is 10 times bigger than 200,000! It's like to estimate population of Kurds in Anatolia something between 15 million to 150 millions!!It is in no way a good and encyclopedic estimate, just a nasty exaggeration and must be removed or else accuracy tag be added to the article. Sharishirin (talk) 23:02, 26 April 2008 (UTC)
The link you have given does not work. Would you please provide a working link? Besides, the other figure, namely 222.000, is from a book written in 1986. So it is not an up-to-date reference. I will provide a link to that book for the moment. --Chapultepec (talk) 23:08, 26 April 2008 (UTC)
Actually another funny point with this issue is that the link does not work! so they give us a non-available link for their claim. I'm fine with any estimate which put the number of Iraqi Turkman around a few hundred thousands. that is both realistic and can be cited with many sources. Sharishirin (talk) 23:15, 26 April 2008 (UTC)
Sorry the research was written in 1989, but the figure of 222,000 was taken in 1986. Here is the link. --Chapultepec (talk) 23:16, 26 April 2008 (UTC)
Yes, I saw that, but in fact they provided the author's name and the source beside that. And at the bottom of the web page it reads that the research is supported by East Haven University. So, nothing gives the impression that it was written by ultra-nationalist individuals. Additionally, we are not the ones here to make decision over the estimates, we should abide by the sources. --Chapultepec (talk) 23:22, 26 April 2008 (UTC)
East Haven university is another vague puzzle: http://www.easthavenuniversity.org/ . Both adherents.com and ethnologue are weak websites with regard to demographics and are written by priests or church-related organizations. I honestly recommend to stick with reliable sources like the book you provided above, and remove false data. Sharishirin (talk) 23:35, 26 April 2008 (UTC)
<<Additionally, we are not the ones here to make decision over the estimates, we should abide by the sources.>> Actually according to wikipedia policy exeptional claims require exeptional citiation, not just random pages on net. Sharishirin (talk) 23:38, 26 April 2008 (UTC)
Yes, I have seen it. But is there a rule that sources written by church-related organizations do not count? Here is an adherents.com link featuring adherents.com in TV News and Print Newspapers. So, for us to be able to understand whether adherents.com is just a random website, we should provide serious scientific/academic sources giving related information on that. Or else, we will be discussing here for ages in vain, and this is of course pointless. And the book I provided above is in fact an outdated source to be cited for population figures. --Chapultepec (talk) 23:49, 26 April 2008 (UTC)


As far as related to this article, judging by their source for demographics of Iraqi Turkman it cannot be useful here. That's what I'm saying. Sharishirin (talk) 23:53, 26 April 2008 (UTC)
And the book I provided above is in fact an outdated source to be cited for population figures. The book is from 1986, and even back then it tells us that Iraqi turkman are rapidly assimilated. So by this logic they must have become even a lower population than the lower than 2%' of Iraqi population mentioned there. Sharishirin (talk) 23:57, 26 April 2008 (UTC)
Of course I understand what you mean. But what I say is, they are not a casual website, and they give the author's name and the source as reference. The source is neither Turkish nor Turkmen. Everything seems normal. --Chapultepec (talk) 00:01, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

And did the author publish his work on an academic journal or magazine or website? Answer: No. So Again according to wikipedia policy only published material can be regarded as verifiable sources. Hence it stands inside OR circle. Sharishirin (talk) 00:08, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

But as far as I know there are official census figures of Iraq from earlier decades giving the rate higher. --Chapultepec (talk) 00:04, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

Everything supported by reliable academic sources is welcomed. Sharishirin (talk) 00:08, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

What I read from the site is that the source was written by Jenny Gamming and it was published in Swedish Expressen, and it was taken from the UNPO website. So, I repeat my suggestion, if we can find a serious academic/scientific source stating that adherents.com is a biased, inaccurate, or a random website, then no problem for me. Discussing here for ages is pointless. As for the earlier Iraqi census figures, of course a research is needed to be able to find an online academic source. Now I have supplied a non-academic one, just for information. According to that, in 1957, the total Iraqi population was 6,300,000 and the Turkmen population was estimated to be 567,000, resulting in a 9% rate. They give Journal of Muslim Minority Affairs, Volume 24, Number 2, October 2004, pp. 309-325(17) as a reference. So, as you can see, the rates in fact differ a lot. --Chapultepec (talk) 00:25, 27 April 2008 (UTC)
Swedish expressen is just a daily newpaper in Sweden like Sabah in turkey. Please read here: Wikipedia:Verifiability#Exceptional_claims_require_exceptional_sources.
For population in past decades, I've no problem with it right now. What I've problem with it rigt now, is, the present-day population claimed in the article. Sharishirin (talk) 00:34, 27 April 2008 (UTC)
It may be a newspaper, but it also took place at the UNPO website. So, I repeat my suggestion, if we can provide serious references criticizing adherents.com for its content, or casting doubt on its reliability, then I am ok, but so far I never heard something like that. Our discussion here is pointless. As for the present population, in fact it complies with the rate of 9 percent retrieved in earlier censuses. And our article already states that this is the maximum estimate. --Chapultepec (talk) 00:45, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

UNPO is not an academic website, and adherents.com's source for its claim is that UNPO nonsense. Obviously you are not serious in this discussion. For the time being I will add an accuracy tag. I will discuss this issue with admins tomorrow. Sharishirin (talk) 01:01, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

No problem, but there are lots of other articles using adherents.com as reference in Wikipedia. But if we can prove with serious academic sources that the site is not reliable, then there is no matter for me. And you can be sure that I have been very serious in every discussion so far. Good night. --Chapultepec (talk) 01:10, 27 April 2008 (UTC)
You know you're just keeping saying adherents.com is reliable or not?! Have you ever read carefully the same adherents.com link you are pushing as a reliable source for your claim?! Read it carefully once again! It has following data for Iraqi Turkman population in 1990s, apparently from a better source (i.e. not UNPO):  ::"Iraq's population of 18.1 million people includes several ethnic groups. Arabs make up about 75% of the total, and Kurds--the largest non-Arab group--compose about 20%. Small numbers of Turkomans, Assyrians, Armenians, and Iranians also live in Iraq. " Source: Bratvold, Gretchen (ed). Iraq ...in Pictures (Visual Geography Series). Minneapolis, Minnesota: Lerner Publications Co. (1990), pg. 40. As you can see it puts number of all other non-Arabs non Kurds totally around 5%. :) Sharishirin (talk) 01:17, 27 April 2008 (UTC)
Pardon me, but I think there is a misunderstanding. The website displays both sources for fairness. We know that there are conflicting sources and figures about the population estimate of the Turkmen. What they do is to display the two references, that's all. Meanwhile, I discern that you are somewhat tired or a little bit nervous. If you would like to, we can continue tomorrow. Everyone needs to rest. --Chapultepec (talk) 01:29, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

Yes, I'm tired :). Have a good night! Sharishirin (talk) 01:31, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

Thank you. Good night! --Chapultepec (talk) 01:34, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

2 million Turkmans in Iraq? This is a false number, 2 million would mean almost 10% of Iraqi population, 1 in 10 Iraqis, and 1 in 3 people in Kurdistan.--Kurdo777 (talk) 23:10, 8 May 2008 (UTC)