Talk:Iran naming dispute

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

WikiProject Iran Iran naming dispute is part of WikiProject Iran, which aims to improve Wikipedia's coverage of Iran-related topics. If you would like to participate, you can edit this article, or visit the project page, where you can join the project and see a list of objectives.
B This article has been rated as B-Class on the Project's quality scale.
High This article has been rated as high-importance on the Project's importance scale.
After rating the article, please provide a short summary on the article's ratings summary page to explain your ratings and/or identify the strengths and weaknesses.

why delete this page when there are other pages that follow suit in much the same way (GNU/Linux vs Linux naming controversy being a prime example). I vote to instead mark it as a stub for expanding. User:Genjix

I agree. I found the article to be enlightening and informative, so I'm not sure why we'd want to get rid of it. Can someone explain the rationale behind wanting it deleted? It's a long enough piece that it doesn't fit into the Iran page. Matt Deres 20:44, 28 July 2005 (UTC)

Whatever the case, the first poster (me) has no cleaned it up and removed the warnings. User:Genjix

==Rename?== Just got to jump in here. sorry this is my first time editing or adding anything to wikipedia. BUT the the map of Iran.jpg is said to originate in 200 bc? From London? I believe leaving this graphic on any page in wikipedia is wrong unless It it is described as a copy/forgery or am I missing a point here?

Name is confusing and probably not compliant with naming conventions. I suggest a rename to Iran/Persia naming controversy, which is more concise and makes more sense. --Wikiacc (talk) 13:20, July 29, 2005 (UTC)


The British Museum have a small exhibition on Iran before Islam at present (Summer 2005) and the information board states that the official external name of the country was changed from Persia to Iran in 1935 (the latter being the internal name all along) - I am paraphrasing slightly.

I think that this can be accepted as reasonably authoritative (g). Jackiespeel 20:55, 29 July 2005 (UTC)

Everything I have read in the articles agrees with that, and also adds: 1) That this was done at the formal request of the then Shah for the international community to stop using 'Persia', and 2) That his son, the next Shah, 20 years later, changed it again, to declare either name equally acceptable. Codex Sinaiticus 03:27, 30 July 2005 (UTC)

I agree with Wikiacc, that the title should be changed. User:Genjix

Contents

[edit] VfD Discussion

This article was nominated for deletion but kept by default of no consensus being reached. See Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/'Iran' or 'Persia'? Which One Should be Called? for the archived discussion -- Francs2000 | Talk 15:34, 7 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Why discuss, its simple to understand Persia and the land Iran

Iran was always used by the locals to refer to the land (hence the word LAND) of Persians (Parsi's), in similar fashion to United Kingdom being referred to as the land/kingdom of the British people. The people of Iran have always been known as Parsi's (english translation being Persian) since the nomadic roots. However, during the islamic conquest, the Arabs attempt to take out the letter P from the Persian alphabet resulted in most people referring to Parsi as Farsi. To sum everything, Iran is the name for the land of Persians/Aryans. In the same respect as the people of UK being referred to as British people, the People of Iran should be referred to as Persians. This is the only geographic and historically correct term. Infact, the term Iranian is incorrect in many ways although ignorantly being used. Some similar examples to help you grasp this fact, are Dutch people from the Netherland (You wouldn't call the Netherlandis or Hollandians), the British etc. --Sina7 00:29, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Editing

This page needs a bit of improvement in copyediting...and could stand to use a clear picture on the current status of the debate. --Dpr 05:13, 2 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] "Established English usage" section

_ _ I redid the former lead section, not only to conform to MoS, but for NPoV purposes: it is wildly inappropriate to construe our love for lk'g terms to articles as requiring or even permitting lk'g the first refs to Iran, Iranian, Persia, etc, in this article to articles we would normally lk them to: this is an article abt whether those patterns of lk'g in some sense reflect bad usage! For purposes of the new one-'graph lead section, they are just words. The charitable interpretation of what i eliminated is that an editor made the honest mistake of too rigidly applying routine practices beyond their reasonable scope. (While i have no evidence for the uncharitable intrepretation -- an intentional attempt to tilt the "debate" by begging the question -- IMO the editor responsible should forgo indignation over any false accusations of that intent that anyone may lodge.)
_ _ The new section i added uses, i hope, all those terms, unpiped, to demonstrate a common-sense (i.e., unresearched) account of the state that is in some way subject to someone's hope of a change. (Sorry for my vagueness; haven't read & won't read the debate! Language mostly changes by itself, not by debate, and they'll know it (even) in Peoria when any change has occurred.) I may not have gotten the details right, but (even the begging of the question aside) the article looks silly discussing what the usage should be without documenting what usage is.
_ _ I also added near the end of the article some excessive material from the Dab page Persia, which someone tried to turn into a mini-article; it is probably mostly suitable here.
--Jerzy•t 16:44, 4 January 2006 (UTC)

I know that "Persian" rugs are the words commonly used to describe rugs from that region. I don't believe it should be changed to Iranian rugs because there are many other Persian rugs from Pakistan and other countries. It is very hard to distinguish the differences in the making of rugs from different countries (unless someone would like to tell me the differences, I would be happy to hear them). I own at least 5, and I don't know which country they are from, nor do I care, I just know they are from the Persian/Iranian region, so I call them Persian rugs, though I have Iranian ancestry. They should be called Persian rugs, not Iranian rugs (and Persian rugs sounds better as well). HaLoGuY007 21:10, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] this article is bogus

this article is highly bogus. as far as i know, there is no serious dispute over the name of iran. no one proposes calling it "persia". i also don't think there is any real dispute over the language terms "persian" or "farsi" (nb i am a linguistics grad student). both terms are in common use and are equivalent. this article looks like original research by someone.

Benwing 04:03, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

I don't think there is any high-level diplomatic dispute about what names should be used in different languages. Nonetheless, the article is not "bogus", as it points to the exonym-endonym/autonym dichotomy. It explains the controversies around the stages in the name change of the state and as such is just as interesting as the article on the Persian Gulf naming dispute or the relevant section on nomenclature in the Persian language article. I say this article is worth keeping for what it's worth. //Big Adamsky 12:42, 26 January 2006 (UTC)
Some of the information in this article is definitely questionable, particularly the allegation that choosing the name "Iran" over "Persia" for international usage had some pro-Nazi incentive behind it. For such a controversial claim there needs to be a clear source and none has been provided, and the article links don't provide any sources for that claim either. SouthernComfort 19:56, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
Benwig, I don't know what kind of linguistic's student you claim to be, but you are entirely wrong (I am half Iranian, btw).
Farsi is an arabic contraction of the word Parsi (arabs cannot pronounce the hard P), which is why persians themselves refer to it as Farsi in their own language. Outside of their language it should be referred to as Persian. This also brings to light why Iran is called Iran in the first place and many nationalists do feel about going back to the usage of Persia as a signifier of their national heritage. Notice the name of this article - Persian language

[edit] Persian Language section

There are a number of issues with the language section. Could someone knowledge comment on them?:

the official English name of the language is "Persian", and not "Farsi"

English has no 'official' arbiter. This sentence needs to say which organisation has decided that Persian is correct and Farsi isn't.

Professors of the language frequently rebuke those who do not refer to the language as Persian in English.

Who are these professors? Is it referring to professors from the 'Academy of Persian Language and Literature'?

Ashmoo 23:24, 14 March 2006 (UTC)


Simply, if one looks at English dictionaries published before late eighties and early ninties , one does not find the word "Parsi" or "Farsi" in any of them. My Oxford Advanced Learner Dictionary published in 1990 does not have the word "Farsi" or "Parsi" but it does explain "Persian" as an adjective for Iranians and also the name of language of such people. The word "Farsi" appeared in recent dictionaries in response to the use of the word by many Iranian immigrants to the west who did not know the actual word to describe their native language in English. If one looks at some of the government forms in English speaking countries such as US and Australia one can see the forms have an item for native language as Persian (Farsi) for that matter. 203.48.45.194

Ashmoo, you are incorrect: Link to the following: http://heritage.chn.ir/en/Article/?id=88

"In English, however, this language has always been known as “Persian” (‘Persane’ in French and ‘Persisch’ in German’). But many Persians migrating to the West (particularly to the USA) after the 1979 revolution continued to use ‘Farsi’ to identify their language in English and the word became commonplace in English-speaking countries.

In the West when one speaks of ‘Persian Language’, people can immediately connect it with several famous aspects of that culture and history such as Persian Gulf, Persian Carpet, Persian food, Persian poetry, Persian cat, etc. But “Farsi” is void of such link which is only obvious for people in Persia (Iran) and a few other nations in the Middle East.

The Academy of the Persian Language and Literature (Farhangestan) in Tehran has also delivered a pronouncement on this matter and rejected any usage of the word “Farsi” instead of Persian/Persa/Persane/Persisch in the Western languages. The first paragraph of the pronouncement states: “PERSIAN has been used in a variety of publications including cultural, scientific and diplomatic documents for centuries and, therefore, it connotes a very significant historical and cultural meaning. Hence, changing ‘Persian’ to ‘Farsi’ is to negate this established important precedence. Changing ‘Persian’ to ‘Farsi’ may give the impression that it is a new language, and this may well be the intention of some Farsi users…”

Fortunately 'all International broadcasting radios with Persian language service (e.g. VOA, BBC, DW, RFE/RL, etc.) use “Persian Service”, in lieu of the incorrect “Farsi Service.” That is also the case for the American Association of Teachers of Persian, The Centre for Promotion of Persian Language and Literature, and several American and European notable universities.' —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.34.60.168 (talk) 23:06, 7 December 2007 (UTC)


Jonsafari, I undid your edit. You had this "Pejman Akbarzadeh feels that referring to Persian as Farsi is incorrect within English, and uses an analogy of requesting that the German language be called Deutsch by those who speak English"

This is incorrect. It is not an opinion by Pejman. He merely wrote the article. By using "feels" you are lowering the this statement from a statement of fact to an opinion. This is factual. See above paragraphs on the info regarding The Academy of the Persian language and Literature which is the controlling body for the language. This is similar to the L'Académie française, for the French Language.

[edit] Image

Why is the image Image:Yek toman qajar.jpg keep getting deleted?

It is essential in my view that it be used in the article.

The image demonstrates that the name "Iran" was in official use even before 1935, despite the name "Persia".

Thanks.--Zereshk 00:10, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Iran v Persia

Was Iran ever called by any other name except Iran by its inhabitants? The names that other nations used to call Iran is irrelevant! In the west people cannot pronounce my name so they call me Kevin! What is my name then? Just because they cannot pronounce my name am I Kevin? Kiumars

You think people have trouble saying your name? Try mine, AYTAKIN! Its pronouncd I-ta-keen, but no one can say it. Now back to the subject, Iran has been called Persia by foreign countries. Persia has roots from other languages. This is just an overview: Persia was established by the Achaemenids in the province of Fars in Iran. But back then they called it Pars. Pars was the name of the country and Iranians themselves called it that. The Greeks' word for Pars was Persis and since the 600s BC the Greeks called Iran that. Later on that evolved into Persia in the English Language. But in Iran, first people called the country Pars and then Iran. I hope that answers your question. Also to add on, there is a philosophical answer to your question "Just because they cannot pronounce my name am I Kevin?" If you want to hear it just ask, but I'm betting you won't so have fun!

--(Aytakin) | Talk 17:36, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

The whole world, from the English "Persia and Persian" to the Danish "Persisk" to the Hindi and Persian "Parsi" the era, nationality, and global representation of Iran (Land of Aryans) has always and will always be known as Persia. From Persian Carpets to Persian Poets to the Persian Caviar, the word Persian is what the world has used so far to describe derivatives from the land of Iran. In History, Iran has been used to describe the Persian land as Persians considered their land the land of Aryans. Iran is a description of the Persian Land, not a name. Iran means "Land of Aryans", used to describe the Persian LAND, not the Country. Iran is Persia, Persia is Iran. Reza Shah only declared the world to use the word Iran to refer to Persia after his co-operation with Hitler. The country Persia didn't change, nor was it taken over or invaded. The ruling goverment only changed. The arguement is weak, England or United Kingdom or Great Britian has more names than any other country, one can respectively argue the true name for Britian, England or whatever, to a deeper level than Persia. Is the British Empire or English Empire or United Kingdom Empire??? The word Persia and Iran are intertwined and will be forever. As long as the Persian people see them selves as Persians living in Iran the land of Aryans so will the world. - Sina A. Mohajer (UK)

[edit] Map of Iran commonly used on this and other pages covering this subject

I believe the title of the map is misleading or false. It states it originates from the year 200BC by a chap called Eratosthenes. On viewing the map it appears from the lettering and terminology to be more or less late last century and printed in London ? Should it not be titled correctly in a subject that is obviously important to many people? ~~Signed J.Cornish~~

(This was a question that was posted on the actual article. I moved it here.)

It's a modern reconstruction, obviously. Let's change the caption. Lukas (T.|@) 08:17, 2 July 2006 (UTC)